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Volume posted:This is actually a pretty well established precedent with in the American Judicial System. When a group commits a crime and one of them murders some one, every one in the group is held accountable for the murder because it would not have happened if they were not committing a crime. Not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the felony murder rule requires some sort of mens rea. VVV That too. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 22:48 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 22:39
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Dead Reckoning posted:Not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the felony murder rule requires some sort of mens rea. Felony murder first requires the commission of a felony, unless not buckling the prisoner into the transport van is a felony, it wouldn't apply.
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May 1, 2015 22:46
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at least three of them are being charged with False Imprisonment and that is a felony.
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May 1, 2015 22:53
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Volume posted:at least three of them are being charged with False Imprisonment and that is a felony. In Maryland, it only applies to certain felonies, which does not include false imprisonment. Also, depending on how tangential their involvement was, making the connection to the harm would be hard. The cops who made the initial arrest (even if it was unwarranted) can probably reasonably argue that there was no way they could have foreseen him being harmed when they handed him over to the paddy wagon.
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May 1, 2015 23:08
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Volume posted:at least three of them are being charged with False Imprisonment and that is a felony. So are they expected to stop and question the other officers PC before lending a hand in loading a dude into a van? "Whoa there Rick, I know this guys handcuffed and laying on the ground and needs help getting into that van but before I do anything I'm going to hold an impromptu probable cause hearing right here in the loving street cause no way am I being charged with murder 2 weeks from now when it turns out he only had a pocket knife."
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May 1, 2015 23:11
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Whip Slagcheek posted:How would they get strangled? Seriously I'm curious. We're not wrapping it around their neck, it's a regular retracting seatbelt. Well, my primary concern is them strangling themselves. Putting a seatbelt immediately beside their head gives them a ready made noose. The second concern I have is them strangling each other, but if they're all buckled in, it's less of a concern. I think our policy is predicated on avoiding self harm as opposed collision injuries. Apparently when they put the cages in our vans, they had a safety expert do the math and the internal dimensions are optimized to minimize injury in a collision. That's the justification I read in a court case when we were sued for not buckling in prisoners.
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May 1, 2015 23:12
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Rad Lieutenant posted:So are they expected to stop and question the other officers PC before lending a hand in loading a dude into a van? Yeah. That's extremely concerning if it set precedent.
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May 1, 2015 23:13
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Volume posted:at least three of them are being charged with False Imprisonment and that is a felony. Yeah, that's not how it works.
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May 1, 2015 23:13
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Rad Lieutenant posted:So are they expected to stop and question the other officers PC before lending a hand in loading a dude into a van? It just might be my silly thoughts on how police work but I'd like to think cops are out there to stop crimes. So if they see an illegal arrest happening they should do their cop duties and stop that crime.
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May 1, 2015 23:14
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Volume posted:It just might be my silly thoughts on how police work but I'd like to think cops are out there to stop crimes. So if they see an illegal arrest happening they should do their cop duties and stop that crime. Im cool with that but my point is that it's probably not immediately apparent to these secondary officers that any arrest was illegal. It's not standard practice to question a coworkers PC when responding to an assistance call.
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May 1, 2015 23:18
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Rad Lieutenant posted:Im cool with that but my point is that it's probably not immediately apparent to these secondary officers that any arrest was illegal. It's not standard practice to question a coworkers PC when responding to an assistance call. Is it common for charges to be dropped because the perpetrator didn't know it was a crime?
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May 1, 2015 23:23
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Volume posted:Is it common for charges to be dropped because the perpetrator didn't know it was a crime? If you argue they're abetting a conspiracy with otherwise lawful conduct, I imagine the answer is yes. If you rob a bank and top up your getaway car in New Jersey, the guy who pumps your gas can't be charged as an accessory because he never asked if you had sacks of cash and a dead witness stuffed in the trunk. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 23:33 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 23:30
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Volume posted:Is it common for charges to be dropped because the perpetrator didn't know it was a crime? Well in most states it's written as "knowingly restrains another unlawfully" so yea. it's going to be pretty hard to prove that these other officers had any intent to falsely imprison anyone, it seems like their intent was to assist with an arrest.
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May 1, 2015 23:31
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This derail is pretty dumb as false imprisonment isn't part of Maryland's Felony Murder statute.
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May 1, 2015 23:32
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Volume posted:Is it common for charges to be dropped because the perpetrator didn't know it was a crime? That depends. One cannot usually claim "I didn't know that was a law" but one certainly can claim "The facts as they appeared to me at the time caused me to believe this act was legal" <insert facts here> in which case the prosecution would need to impeach that presentation with evidence that the defendant knew or reasonably should have known other information that would have told them the act was illegal. quote:just might be my silly thoughts on how police work but I'd like to think cops are out there to stop crimes. So if they see an illegal arrest happening they should do their cop duties and stop that crime. That is an extremely silly idea. Barring "Training-day"-like circumstances that are just outrageous police should not be making determinations as to whether the official actions of other officers are legal or not on the spot. The police are not judges, and the question of whether an arrest was legal or not is a question for a judge or a jury. Police should not be having disputes over each other's interpretation of the law in the middle of trying to enforce it. If you're having to ask questions like those above it might behoove you to do a little more reading on legal principles and precedent. There's considerable precedent and legal theory on what the police may and may not do and who may be held responsible for what. "Cops are out there to stop crimes" could be a simplified expression of a general rule, but it is hardly some ironclad principle that requires them to air their disputes in the heat of the moment lest they be charged with a felony because of unusual circumstances.
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May 1, 2015 23:44
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Saying "cops are out there to stop crimes" is just simply a close-minded and juvenile view of the institution as a whole and what we do. Maybe under Sir Robert Peel that was the primary charge of police, but in 2015 police are law enforcement, social worker, babysitter, mediator, etc. There are so many aspects of this job that don't fall under criminal activity that it would boggle the mind of those who don't know. I've helped old ladies back into wheelchairs, I've brought stranded motorists gas (that I've paid for), I've brought kids to school, I've locked up residences of people who left on vacation and forgot to lock their door, and on and on. To put it another way, police are the only governmental agency and public service available 24 hours a day, everyday, at the touch of a button, for free. The Shep fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 01:15
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You are basically the public's babysitter? Sometimes the parent...
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May 2, 2015 01:42
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:To put it another way, police are the only governmental agency and public service available 24 hours a day, everyday, at the touch of a button, for free. Your fire fighters don't qualify for this? E: or ems actually. Our ems doesn't charge a dime unless they transport. Our public works dept also runs around at all hours of the night for things like burst water lines or storm debris. beanieson fucked around with this message at 01:53 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 01:49
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firefighters definitely charge money for fires, here at least.
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May 2, 2015 02:46
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Welp, I was wrong...only 4 of them are white.
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May 2, 2015 03:15
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Uhhhh 4 of them?
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May 2, 2015 03:19
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Yeah there's three black people, a mick, and two white guys.
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May 2, 2015 03:23
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I didn't get it for a while. the names
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May 2, 2015 03:24
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The one on the bottom right is White.
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May 2, 2015 03:24
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Reign Of Pain posted:The one on the bottom right is White. Still, though, Nero looks like he belongs on a potato farm.
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May 2, 2015 03:25
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Reign Of Pain posted:Welp, I was wrong...only 4 of them are white. Boo this man.
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May 2, 2015 03:29
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Mr. Nice! posted:Still, though, Nero looks like he belongs on a potato farm. can we all just agree that slavs/pollocks are the worst white people?
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May 2, 2015 04:08
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Branis posted:can we all just agree that slavs/pollocks are the worst white people? Quick question, do you count Jews as white people?
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May 2, 2015 04:24
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Branis posted:can we all just agree that slavs/pollocks are the worst white people? why even count them as white? they're at least as bad as the irish or sicilians
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May 2, 2015 04:33
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Rad Lieutenant posted:Quick question, do you count Jews as white people? This is a tough one, are you counting ashkenazi, sephardi, or mizrahi jews? I would argue that ashkenazi are probably white, but there may be some slavic overlap in there.
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May 2, 2015 04:51
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Rad Lieutenant posted:Your fire fighters don't qualify for this? Good luck getting the volunteer FD to respond out of bed at 3am when you've run out of gas on the side of the road and don't have money for a tow. The police are societies catch-all.
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May 2, 2015 05:11
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Rad Lieutenant posted:Quick question, do you count Jews as white people? Under some British laws...no. For the purposes of racially aggravated offenses Sikhs and Jews are a entirely separate race. In England and Wales at least. Northern Ireland probably have anti-sectarian legislation that only refers to real religions like Protestantism and not pretend ones like Roman popery. Scotland probably have some laws that actually make sense.
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May 2, 2015 16:20
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:Good luck getting the volunteer FD to respond out of bed at 3am when you've run out of gas on the side of the road and don't have money for a tow. I'm a firefighter that had to get out of bed at 3am to break into a cop car that he locked his own keys in. Firefighters are police's catch-all.
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May 2, 2015 20:33
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What do you guys do when you have to arrest someone, but then they have to poo poo like RIGHT NOW? Do you guys just watch them as they do their business, make them take a dump/piss in the back of the cruiser, etc?
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May 2, 2015 21:13
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Minty posted:I'm a firefighter that had to get out of bed at 3am to break into a cop car that he locked his own keys in. Why couldn't the cop break his own window, or grab a spare key from the station?  Our FD is useless except for bringing 4 engines to a minor traffic accident that blocks up the whole road.
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May 2, 2015 21:28
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Skoll posted:What do you guys do when you have to arrest someone, but then they have to poo poo like RIGHT NOW? Do you guys just watch them as they do their business, make them take a dump/piss in the back of the cruiser, etc? They can wait, but I never had a take home, so...
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May 2, 2015 21:45
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:Our FD is useless except for bringing 4 engines to a minor traffic accident that blocks up the whole road. Oh god this. Their policy is to respond even if we get there first and tell them they're not needed. Me - "It's just smoke from a bbq pit, cancel the fire dept" Dispatch - "They advised that you can't cancel them!"
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May 2, 2015 21:45
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If it is the first due of fire, it's their responsibility. I never ever as a front seat officer would take a cop's evaluation of the scene about a thing that is my responsibility. And I never did. I always gave a small lecture about me calling them off at a DV house. I've had podunk cops tell me the scene looks good and by the time we get there the car is in flames next to a garage. And medical calls are the worst when a cop gives us "an evaluation of the scene. " "Yes, this scene looks good. The wreck looks horrible but the driver seems calm and is slowly walking around. Not screaming or complaining about pain. Looks good." Jesus. Imagine me in court saying "well you see the police officer, who knows nothing about fire rescue, said this and that." Come on guys, would you take a fireman's advice on a gang fight? Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 22:20 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 22:14
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"Dispatch, call off the PD. These guys look like pussies, I think we can take them."
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May 2, 2015 22:17
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Captain Bravo posted:"Dispatch, call off the PD. These guys look like pussies, I think we can take them." Um, that sounds exactly like Denver FD.
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May 2, 2015 22:48
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