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ArchangeI posted:Well, it's not like the uniforms are the only sign showing what side you're on. During the 30YW you'd have regimental colors as well and with the fairly compact formations it's not likely for a guy to find himself face to face with another guy in the powder haze, separated from all the others, trying to figure out if they're on the same side. I think the problem isn't really face-to-face contact and really more staring at a blob of men far-off in the powder haze and trying to figure out if you're allowed to shoot them or not. I'm reasonably sure I remember reading about friendly fire incidents or moments when the enemy wasn't fired upon and even the death/capture/near-capture (I forget which) of at least one general due to some regiment or other having wrong-colored uniforms as late as the American Civil War (which also had regimental colors and fairly compact formations), so it seems like the same problems would apply to the 30 Years' War at least to some extent.
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May 3, 2015 17:14
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You can always combine different kinds of hats, coats and trousers to distinguish yourself. Then of course you could also accessorize with armbands and such, although I don't know if that ever happened before 20th century civil wars. Eg. here's some Finnish white civil guards sporting white armbands as their only actually uniform clothing:  In the white assault on Tampere the white forces were ordered to place a small spruce twig on their hats for easier recognition. As the besieged red guards defending the city were unlikely to have ready access to spruce branches, it would be harder for them to disguise themselves than just changing the red armband to a white one if they tried to break out of the city. Here is General Linder wearing one on his cap, not that his uniform could be mistaken for some dirty factory worker's in any case. 
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May 3, 2015 17:28
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I imagine it was a blessing as on campaigns, uniforms get worn and damaged pretty easy. Captured ones are better to wear or use to repair your natty gear than going without. Remember if these guys can't find a Inn to share, a house or even ruins with a roof to squat together in they will just sleep outside. Marching fighting and sleeping in your uniform would take a hell of a toll on it.
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May 3, 2015 18:44
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yaffle posted:A bit of a tricky one here. About 10 years ago I talked about a book with my dad, as I remember it was about Basil Liddell Hart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._H._Liddell_Hart and the allied response to the German army's superior small arms and training (In terms of equipment and small unit tactics as I recall). I really can't remember any more that that. Cross-posting from the "identify that book" thread in the belief that it might get more traction here.
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May 3, 2015 18:55
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Tomn posted:I think the problem isn't really face-to-face contact and really more staring at a blob of men far-off in the powder haze and trying to figure out if you're allowed to shoot them or not. Remember in this period that the effective range of a musket and the effective range of a well-hurled rock are roughly similar.
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May 3, 2015 21:15
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100 Years Ago Yeah, things are about to get seriously loving busy. A world undone, indeed. The Friendly Feldwebel goes on rather a long train journey, the Austro-Hungarian army engages in a clevair rrruse on the Italian border, French artillery starts pasting Vimy and Carency again, the last Canadian to leave his trench in front of Ypres remembers to turn the lights out before he goes off to the GHQ line, the Russians continue heading hard astern in Poland, and the French Empire lines on Gallipoli wobble mightily. (Meanwhile, Our Advertising Feature investigates life insurance, with a pretty great disingenuous tagline.) Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 22:39 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 22:32
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I couldn't entirely make sense of that life insurance ad. What does it mean, aside from attempting to profit from Tommies?
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May 3, 2015 23:03
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gently caress if I know, but I laughed like a drain at "Comparisons are odious, but to the Association's advantage", which is a truly spectacular piece of two-facedness.
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May 3, 2015 23:05
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A shitloard of German captured documents from Soviet archives. Naturally, they are in German (although the site itself is also available in English and Russian) so they are of limited use to me, but I'm sure it would be a nice find for some of you.
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May 4, 2015 00:33
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Ensign Expendable posted:A shitloard of German captured documents from Soviet archives. Naturally, they are in German (although the site itself is also available in English and Russian) so they are of limited use to me, but I'm sure it would be a nice find for some of you. Danke tovarisch
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May 4, 2015 01:11
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Tomn posted:So back onto the subject of history, I've been slowly and painfully making my way through a history of the 30 Years' War, and at one point the Swedes are noted to have "captured 5,000 uniforms." This seems like a bit of a mixed blessing? On one hand, free clothes is pretty great I imagine and would have done a lot for morale, but on the other hand I had the impression that half the point of uniforms is to make sure you know who you can shoot and who you can't - wearing enemy uniforms, however comfortable, seems to defeat the purpose somewhat. Is there something I'm missing here, or is it purely a matter of expediency based on existing clothes getting completely worn out? ArchangeI posted:Well, it's not like the uniforms are the only sign showing what side you're on. During the 30YW you'd have regimental colors as well and with the fairly compact formations it's not likely for a guy to find himself face to face with another guy in the powder haze, separated from all the others, trying to figure out if they're on the same side. Uniforms are kind of like livery, and my subjects use the same word for both, Liberey--they're worn less for recognition and more to signal your allegiance to the person who raised your regiment / to satisfy his desire for an ordered appearance. For recognition there are three things you can do. There's the regimental colors, which Archange1 mentioned, where a regiment's flags will all be of the same color and sometimes the officers' sashes or clothing as well, or scraps of cloth about the person of the common soldier. Then there's the field sign, where everyone will carry the same token, like a white strip of cloth tied around the left arm, or like the white armbands or spruce twigs mentioned upthread. There's also the field word, where everyone will be told the same slogan. These are often popular battle cries as well, like the Swedish "Gott Mit Uns." I read an account from the English Civil War where a cavalryman killed his enemy, fancied the dead man's hat and took it, but forgot to remove the field sign from it, a piece of paper pinned to it. He rode among a troop of his own comrades and was killed, but before he died he admitted that the accident had been his fault. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:21 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 01:18
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HEY GAL posted:
That was a man with an admirable sense of personable responsibility.  Also, as we seem to get a lot of TFR cross pollination in this thread, where would I got to ask questions idiotic gun wankery? I'm reading a rather dumb book right now and I want to know exactly how dumb it is. 
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May 4, 2015 02:20
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The newbie thread or general questions thread. If there's anything dudes with guns like it's answering questions about dumb opinions on guns. I say this as a gun owner and a military history buff.
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May 4, 2015 02:28
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Hunterhr posted:The newbie thread or general questions thread. If there's anything dudes with guns like it's answering questions about dumb opinions on guns. Very useful advice in the field of pumpkin defense, too. I'll admit the ugly gun thread is a guilty pleasure of mine, though. Back on topic: Hegel, were there any common off-hours team sports that the soldados in your era liked to play? I heard that Union soldiers liked to play baseball in their spare time and was wondering if anything similar existed in earlier eras. Maybe some form of football?
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May 4, 2015 02:57
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Back on topic: Hegel, were there any common off-hours team sports that the soldados in your era liked to play? I heard that Union soldiers liked to play baseball in their spare time and was wondering if anything similar existed in earlier eras. Maybe some form of football?  This was painted in 1861, but I like the atmosphere so I'm posting it Edit: Klaus88 posted:That was a man with an admirable sense of personable responsibility. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 03:18 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 03:09
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But nothing really, you know, athletic?
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May 4, 2015 03:26
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I have read an account that described two soldiers roughhousing with each other, but since they did it with naked daggers in their hands the civilians nearby became convinced they were going to kill each other and showed up in a mob, ready to beat them to death. Does that count? I mean, they are quite physical in terms of their daily lives and their enjoyments, but not particularly...organized. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 03:37 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 03:35
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Hey thread, does anyone know good books about the failings of the Nazi military? I'd like to learn exactly how Wehraboos have wrong opinions on tanks and stuff.
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May 4, 2015 04:04
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brocretin posted:Hey thread, does anyone know good books about the failings of the Nazi military? I'd like to learn exactly how Wehraboos have wrong opinions on tanks and stuff. Well, their biggest failing is probably that they lost World War II.
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May 4, 2015 04:11
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Deteriorata posted:Well, their biggest failing is probably that they lost World War II. Their opinions about women's lib were also somewhat problematic.
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May 4, 2015 05:58
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brocretin posted:Hey thread, does anyone know good books about the failings of the Nazi military? I'd like to learn exactly how Wehraboos have wrong opinions on tanks and stuff. If you want a quick one about tanks, I think there's a good section in Zaloga's Panther vs Sherman. A lot of it is scattered. Ensign Expendable has a blog that's hilarious fun.
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May 4, 2015 05:59
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Their opinions about women's lib were also somewhat problematic. Also they were pretty anti-semitic.
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May 4, 2015 06:19
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World War 2 Projectile Data: Since I still have a big backlog of illustrations to complete and I don't always have access to my editing software I figured it might be a good idea to start on my Soviet Explosive Ordnance technical manual. The introduction is very brief, but the markings system is well explained. The technical manual also includes Soviet (and Satellite countries) small arms munitions
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May 4, 2015 06:56
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Oh, I forgot! Not only were proto-uniforms a thing, when Wallenstein was hired by the Empire the second time he prohibited all sash colors for his officers but red, on pain of death. Pretty sure everyone else but Pappenheim (who admired him shamelessly) spent a lot of time rolling their eyes at him behind his back, but the dude got poo poo done, so...
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May 4, 2015 07:57
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Baloogan posted:Also they were pretty anti-semitic. At least they let 'em go camping.
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May 4, 2015 08:12
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100 Years Ago Italy officially leaves the Triple Alliance, and there's a serious danger of modern observers feeling rather sorry for General Cadorna's position (don't worry, it won't last long). Gabriele D'Annunzio has arrived home, the Legion of Frontiersmen is earning a nickname in Kenya, Ypres is evacuated of civilians, and the ANZACs unsuccessfully raid Gaba Tepe.
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May 4, 2015 09:08
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago As a Christian, that D'Annunzio's riff on the Sermon on the Mount seems fairly obscene. Did nobody call him on the fact that his sermon seems to say pretty much the opposite of what Christ's did? Was D'Annunzio ever associated with the Italian Futurists? Some of it sounds like a quote from the Futurist Manifesto: "We will glorify war, the world's only hygiene..."
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May 4, 2015 12:09
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D'Annunzio was, at this time, the unquestionably most popular cultural figure in contemporary Italy. Italy's avant-garde art scene gloried in these perversions all the time, and a not insignificant part of D'Annunzio's project involved subverting traditional morality. He was actually in parliament for a while and publicly and dramatically "went from death unto life", crossing from the conservative to the socialist side. He is a really important figure in early Italian proto-fascism. You'll probably be hearing a lot about him in both Disinterested and Trin Triagula's posts. He's a very complicated figure and one very exemplary of his time in a lot of ways.
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May 4, 2015 12:16
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How effective was counter-battery fire during WWI and did it get significantly more effective during WWII? Is the image we should have of lines of guns hammering away all day with impunity, or did artillery face significant retaliation?
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May 4, 2015 12:38
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Fangz posted:How effective was counter-battery fire during WWI and did it get significantly more effective during WWII? Is the image we should have of lines of guns hammering away all day with impunity, or did artillery face significant retaliation? If I recall correctly, the Allies had a huge advantage in counter-battery operations because they figured out how to triangulate an enemy's position with sound.
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May 4, 2015 12:50
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Fangz posted:How effective was counter-battery fire during WWI and did it get significantly more effective during WWII? Is the image we should have of lines of guns hammering away all day with impunity, or did artillery face significant retaliation? Right now counter-battery fire is quite difficult; in order to lay it down, you first need to know where the other side's guns are, which is easier said than done (and it also helps if, unlike the Entente, you're not constantly on the verge of running out of shells). By 1917 they'll be working on sound-ranging and they'll have a favourable situation in the air for observer planes to do some proper spotting to correct the fire and they'll have had three years of experience to learn from and they'll have worked out that gassing a gun crew will seriously slow down their rate of fire, since even if they get their masks on in good time and the mask is 100% effective, eventually its neutralising chemicals will lose effectiveness and in the meantime life inside a gas mask is extremely unpleasant even without any gas. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 14:27 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 14:24
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Fangz posted:How effective was counter-battery fire during WWI and did it get significantly more effective during WWII? Is the image we should have of lines of guns hammering away all day with impunity, or did artillery face significant retaliation? The art of counter-battery fire and artillery operations was absolutely critical to any sort of success on the battlefield in WWI and so was the subject of a huge amount of attention on all sides of the war. At first little attention was paid to location methods for the simple fact that most artillery fire was done directly over open sights, so there was no need to be able to locate hidden enemy batteries. Obviously by late 1914/early 1915 this is no longer the case, and armies turn to three methods for locating enemy artillery over the horizon, in roughly this order of invention: 1. Visual spotting by aircraft/balloons; 2. Flash spotting by using spaced detectors to detect artillery muzzle flashes; 3. Sound ranging, using specifically placed microphones to detect the location of enemy pieces by the time taken for sound to reach them. Aircraft were mainly used to spot the fall of friendly shells - due to camouflage and changes in local air superiority it was never a reliable method of spotting for counter-battery fire. Flash spotting was rendered useless later in the war due to the advent of flashless power, so sound ranging was developed as the major method. Here's a famous image from the end of the war which shows you what a reel of sound ranging tape looks like:  As for the retaliation, light artillery crew suffered large amounts of counterbattery fire on all sides of the war. I believe Trin Tragula posted about this earlier but light artillery crew (i.e. 75-100mm pieces) suffered around half the casualty rate of the infantry, which was very high compared to all the other non-infantry branches except pilots. In addition artillery crew could expect to be on the receiving end of a lot of gas shells, since these were best for suppression. The crews of heavier pieces tended to have a much easier time of it, being out of the range of most of the opposing firepower. One innovation which affected the amount of return fire crews received was the allied used of totally preplanned fire from roughly 1917 onwards. In pretty much all cases beforehand, batteries would need to fire ranging shots which would alert the enemy that artillery was in the area and if their ranging was good enough, where it was. By 1917 improved mapping, aerial spotting and gunnery calculations enabled allied gunners to fire accurate salvos on targets without firing a ranging shot beforehand, giving greater surprise and cutting down on the amount of shells that would be coming the other way. In terms of WWII the main method for detection throughout the war was sound ranging due to the refinement in the technology. Counter-battery fire was still used but its importance was diminished due to the much more mobile nature of the war and the reduced reliance on artillery as the sole predicator of attack success. By the end of the war the allies were starting to develop radar as a method of detecting enemy artillery, which is the main method used today. Jobbo_Fett posted:If I recall correctly, the Allies had a huge advantage in counter-battery operations because they figured out how to triangulate an enemy's position with sound. Note quite true - all armies developed sound ranging around the same time at the start of the war, though it took some time for the technology to the develop to the point it was reliable. However the British developed the best techniques and equipment for using sound ranging and so had a lot more success with it. One example is that German gunners sometimes fired using every single gun in a sector at once, hoping that the sheer volume of fire would overwhelm the British microphones. However British sound ranging was so good by this point that all this accomplished was letting the British locate every single German gun on the opposing line. e:f,b Trin 
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May 4, 2015 14:37
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Jobbo_Fett posted:.  for the love of god cross post this in the milsurp thread.
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May 4, 2015 14:50
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brocretin posted:Hey thread, does anyone know good books about the failings of the Nazi military? I'd like to learn exactly how Wehraboos have wrong opinions on tanks and stuff. My blog aside, Forczyk's "T-34 vs Panther" has some good points for why having the biggest meanest tank isn't exactly the greatest idea.
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May 4, 2015 15:27
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Cyrano4747 posted:
Once I get to them, sure! For example: Here's the entry for Czech 7.62mm Pistol Ammo, sans text  And the manual even does something much much cooler, although in a much more limited capacity... Ever wanted to know what the ammunition crate SHOULD have written on it (For the 7.92mm)? 
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May 4, 2015 15:28
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the 1632 series posted:"I go to my book discussion group on Mondays."
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May 4, 2015 16:06
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HEY GAL posted:I take back what I said, these books are great You're reading it now? Oh, this is an exciting development for the thread, and just in time for Meltdown May.
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May 4, 2015 16:22
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Chamale posted:You're reading it now? Oh, this is an exciting development for the thread, and just in time for Meltdown May.
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May 4, 2015 16:33
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Chamale posted:You're reading it now? Oh, this is an exciting development for the thread, and just in time for Meltdown May. It's free on the Internet and it's not like there isn't much worse historical fanfiction out there.
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May 4, 2015 16:35
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Chamale posted:You're reading it now? Oh, this is an exciting development for the thread, and just in time for Meltdown May. Your typical historian has basically three libraries: The first library is the one that is located on all the nice shelves in the living room and other "public" areas of your house. This is where you put all the impressive big, thick books with important sounding titles. The more of them that are in a foreign language, the better. Half of those books have never been read, although most people can hold down a conversation about the major themes and contributions of each work. The second library is the one you actually work with. It's located in your office and is frequently just a wall of books stacked around your work area, frequently balanced precariously and threatening you daily with death by literary avalanche. Some of the titles will be in your research language, but anything available in translation you will have in your native tongue because seriously gently caress reading German or French or whatever when you're in a hurry and just trying to skim for content. You know these books intimately and are almost as familiar with their arguments as you are your own. The third library is the one in your bedroom, and it's the one you read for fun. There might be a book or two about history, chances are they won't be about your actual subject in any recognizable way. 90% of the books will be the trashiest of trashy pulp literature. This "library" might also just be a bunch of stuff downloaded to a kindle, because you don't need to take margin notes on an airport-grade page turner. You can recite some of these books in your sleep. I own a hilarious amount of Terry Pratchet novels and a simply disturbing number of works published by Baen. I've read more books by John Ringo than works published by my doctoral advisor.
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May 4, 2015 16:39
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