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Dzhay posted:Bertrand Russell? He's a douchebag Nessus posted:What color is the Form of a cat, the ideal of Catness? How could this be determined? Is there a different ideal Form for a lion and a tiger? If so, where are these forms? And also, what use is this entire system? How does it help anything with the understanding of the world we can actually perceive? I would argue it does the opposite - it makes it so you don't have to go bother looking, because you already know the answer. By my reckoning, the ideal form of a cat does not have a specific color, but does have a set of possible colors. I should say that yes, a lion and a tiger have different forms than that of a cat, as these words mean subtly different things than simply "cat". These forms exist in the realm of ideas, which is metaphysical. This entire system is extraordinarily useful and is used all the time whenever we communicate ideas. "Ideas" and "forms" are the same thing, and you surely would agree that ideas exist, as you are in the process of sharing them right now, and discussing just what the true essence (or form) of an idea is. quote:Right, and Communism has never really been attempted, so Marxism can't be criticized. Right? Same logic. A strange objection, because I said that it was "attempted" to some extent in the Catholic hierarchy. It's difficult to put philosophers in a position of leadership because politics is very hard. It is hard to gain control of a city or a world. Although I will cite one other example that is rooted in the Platonic vision, and that is the nation of Singapore as created by the genius Lee Kuan Yew. quote:On what grounds? I said before. The method of selecting members of the hierarchy, the method of electing the Pope as philosopher king, is reminiscent of the golden souls in Plato's philosophy.
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May 4, 2015 00:25
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Nepotism = Platonic ideal government?
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May 4, 2015 00:29
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Kyrie eleison posted:By my reckoning, the ideal form of a cat does not have a specific color, but does have a set of possible colors. I should say that yes, a lion and a tiger have different forms than that of a cat, as these words mean subtly different things than simply "cat". These forms exist in the realm of ideas, which is metaphysical. This entire system is extraordinarily useful and is used all the time whenever we communicate ideas. "Ideas" and "forms" are the same thing, and you surely would agree that ideas exist, as you are in the process of sharing them right now, and discussing just what the true essence (or form) of an idea is. Do you believe that ideas are more important than physical realities? If so, to what extent, and why?
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May 4, 2015 00:36
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Kyrie eleison posted:By my reckoning, the ideal form of a cat does not have a specific color, but does have a set of possible colors
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May 4, 2015 00:42
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rudatron posted:Except the way that you determined this statement was based on your experience, not because the existence of any ideal form. The 'ideal form' of 'the cat' could include 6 legs, but unless such a cat existed in reality and was called a 'cat' by the society you lived in, you wouldn't know. Your experience of reality is independent of the existence of ideal forms, so assuming they exist is superfluous. Listen: you say 'cat', and I read the word 'cat', and I know what you are talking about. We are talking about cats in the abstract. This idea which is communicated when you say 'cat' and I receive it, is precisely the form we are talking about. Words and ideas certainly have a lot in common, yes. A form is just an abstract idea of something. Nessus posted:Is there an Absolute Ideal Form of a cat, and an Absolute Ideal Form of a tiger? If so, how are they different? When I think of a cat, I think of a housecat, personally, which is different than a tiger. Although technically a tiger is a type of cat, it's not what the word "cat" evokes in me. I do believe that ideas are more important than physical realities, as physical reality is merely an arrangement of matter, whereas ideas serve a higher purpose, not only of the interpretation and understanding of the physical world, but abstract concepts such as justice and beauty. If humanity is relevant at all, it is not in that we are physical, for cats and tigers are also physical, but rather that we are aware of ideas, and can formulate and communicate them. This is the breath of God within us, and it is how we are created in his image.
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May 4, 2015 01:12
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You've got that a bit rear end backwards, ideas are good in that they can serve material humans, not the other way around.
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May 4, 2015 01:29
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Are Forms eternal?
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May 4, 2015 01:49
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A set/category/noun-in-a-language is not the same thing as a platonic form, it doesn't exist metaphysically ie-not outside of the head of the person who created it (it dies with them). Do you even understand what you're supposed to be defending? How would a world without forms be measurable different? If it could not exist, why? rudatron fucked around with this message at 01:57 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 01:53
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I don't have definite theological opinions but Kyrie is easily the smartest poster itt, in the same way the accelerationist guy is the smartest one it the primary and political threads.
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May 4, 2015 02:07
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Hybrid children watch the sea Pray for Father, roaming free
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Was Plato the guy who believed that there was a singular conceptual ideal for everything that superseded everything else? Like chairs have an ur-chair that exists only in the aether, from which we derive the idea of chairs in our minds, from which we get the word chair, then finally actual physical chairs. And each subsequent form is worse off for being further from the source.
Who What Now fucked around with this message at 02:25 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 02:13
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Kyrie eleison posted:
Singapore is a great place to live if you are the 'right person'. I was fortunate enough to live there and, at the time, thought it was amazing and could not understand why the rest of the world was run like it. The teenage son of a wealthy expat family living there did not get to experience or even perceive the heavy toll such easy living exacts upon people. You might say that singapore's political structure, essentially technocratic [which is where I assume you're drawing the Plato comparison], allows a great deal of un-opposable, unilateral action that 'gets things done'. And indeed, Singapore has accomplished incredible feats with this system. They turned what was largely a massive inlet and river from the sea [the water around the city] into a massive freshwater reservoir. I remember when one of the massive ECP road bridge spans broke and it was literally repaired that night [would've taken weeks in other places]. This poo poo all comes at a cost though. The government controls vast quantities of the commerce on the island through temasek holdings. This means that they have some great public services like the MRT and HDB schemes (which is like fully socialised housing btw Kyrie which I'm sure you don't agree with), but it also means that they have a literal iron grip on everything and can squash anything that is politically inconvenient for the leadership, totalitarianism. This effect is expressed in so many ways. In schools, deviancy is not tolerated, caning is a thing and the kids are worked to the bone. Yes they get high test scores, but my dad has commented many times that when he was working with them they were almost terrified of his or other superior authority. That is not a good thing. Nationalistic sentiment is also heavily promoted in the native populace, chinooks fly low over the city trailing national flags and some of the most beautiful fireworks displays in the world occur alongside military parades. Unity, sameness, is a key point that the government likes to drive home. Differences are not celebrated, they are squashed. Truckloads of workers are bussed in on trucks to do most of the tough construction jobs in the tropical heat. They do the labour that builds most of the country yet they don't get to enjoy the benefits to infrastructure that they create because they don't live there. Singapore's prosperity is in many ways built off of the back of pseudo-slave labour. So don't point out Singapore as a shining example of an effective technocratic, totalitarian state, because it is nothing of the sort.
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May 4, 2015 02:34
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Guys guys, you know what is a good example of paradise? Somalia
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May 4, 2015 02:40
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Ocrassus posted:Singapore is a great place to live if you are the 'right person'. I was fortunate enough to live there and, at the time, thought it was amazing and could not understand why the rest of the world was run like it. The teenage son of a wealthy expat family living there did not get to experience or even perceive the heavy toll such easy living exacts upon people.
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May 4, 2015 05:09
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Ocrassus posted:Singapore is a great place to live if you are the 'right person'. I was fortunate enough to live there and, at the time, thought it was amazing and could not understand why the rest of the world was run like it. The teenage son of a wealthy expat family living there did not get to experience or even perceive the heavy toll such easy living exacts upon people. Yeah well I knew a guy from Singapore who said it was based on Plato. edit: ok a more thorough answer, yes that sounds relatively Platonic to me. Crushing "deviancy" (aka bad behaviors) is in fact a good thing. "Differences" that are actually just bad behaviors are not to be tolerated. I don't see what's so bad about corporal punishment. The stuff about slave labor is meaningless, you could say that about any economy (including communist ones) -- turns out people have to labor for things to get done. If those people don't want to work there, they don't have to, but obviously they do because that is why they do the job. Plato would certainly approve of government-run programs and his style of system is often accused of being totalitarian because it censors negative elements from society whereas liberal societies let bad behaviors thrive until they inevitably destroy the system. Singapore is successful and the liberal West is not. Kyrie eleison fucked around with this message at 08:38 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 08:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:Singapore is successful and the liberal West is not.
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May 4, 2015 08:47
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Kyrie eleison posted:Singapore is successful and the liberal West is not. And your metrics for this are...?
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May 4, 2015 08:49
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Kyrie eleison posted:Yeah well I knew a guy from Singapore who said it was based on Plato. So all difference is bad? We should be driving people like Alan Turing, minds who were above and beyond their peers, over the edge of their despair because they don't fit into a mould? It's like the old proverb says, if you have a hammer you start to see everything as a nail. Brilliance is sometimes like a rare and beautiful flower, it is delicate and needs to be protected and nourished, not smashed because it is not as strong or rigid as the oak trees that populate the forest. Like I said, this conformity and uniformity amongst the populace and the force used to do it means that the young natives express terror when they work. Literally, rather than having a zest for life and a love of what they do, they do it out of fear and imposed duty. Let me tell you, this method makes fantastic pilots when the job is rote, but anything requiring non algorithmic thought patterns tends to throw them a curveball. Difference and uniqueness is the spark of creativity and brilliance. As for the slave labour thing. Do you think there is a choice between starving to death and being a slave? This is the choice these people face, and Singapore's infrastructure is built upon their backs, in far far worse conditions than any you would find in the west, with no protection from the choking heat and thick air. Conditions I imagine that were similarly experienced prior to the exodus of Egypt.
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May 4, 2015 12:22
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Black Bones posted:That's a big "If". What if he created us to experience joy? What if he allows for and accepts our condemnation? What if he experiences our suffering? If he crafted us to experience joy, and the universe for us to experience it in, he did nearly the shittiest possible job. Far worse than one might expect from an omnipotent omniscient being who was trying. If her experiences our suffering, can he avoid it or is he some kind of masochist?
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May 4, 2015 14:55
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Lol at reading Plato's Republic and seriously thinking it's a suggestion for government. It's a suggestion for self-government and every bit of it is a metaphor for facets of the soul/ human experience. I guess I could see a modern person with no concept of how ancient people wrote taking everything at literal face value, but using that argument in here baffles me. No metaphor in the bible thread, no sir. The forms taken literally as existing is, of course, ancient ignorance or modern woo, but Plato was laying some strong groundwork for our modern understanding of mental schemas. It's actually amazing how accurate and useful the concept is, if you don't throw the whole thing out because of its framing itself in an outmoded fashion. Mostly a historical curiosity, though.
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May 4, 2015 15:06
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mostly i don't enjoy plato for his excessive wordiness and intentional obscurantism, which are problems of form ( ) rather than contentneoplatonism, though, is just terrible in every manifestation
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May 4, 2015 15:08
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like, henology, what the gently caress is this bullshit
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May 4, 2015 15:08
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V. Illych L. posted:mostly i don't enjoy plato for his excessive wordiness and intentional obscurantism, which are problems of form ( this post is literally exactly what I think at least aristotle spells out literally and clearly exactly what he thinks
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May 4, 2015 15:15
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And by 'he' I mean 'whoever was writing the lecture notes'.
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May 4, 2015 15:16
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Disinterested posted:this post is literally exactly what I think The explanation for this that I like best is that Plato's writings are essentially the textbooks with problems for students of logic and ethics, and we don't have the teachers edition with the answers in it (not that he would have made one). Aristotle's surviving works are very much like the texts of non-philosophy disciplines of today: collections of "facts" and information. In other words, what to think. Plato's writings can be taken as exercises in spot-the-fallacy and training exercises in how to think. It was never his intention for there to be much in the way of specific "Plato thinks this" in there, other than that we should be open to questioning everything and aware of our own ignorance.* This is a generous reading, to be sure, but I really enjoy his works when looked at in this way. *edit: I'm really referring to the dialogues here The Bloop fucked around with this message at 17:07 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 17:05
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Disinterested posted:And by 'he' I mean 'whoever was writing the lecture notes'. i really like that one of the main sources we have of aristotle's thought are the flawed lecture notes of a mediocre student it's so funny
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May 4, 2015 17:15
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Ocrassus posted:So all difference is bad? We should be driving people like Alan Turing, minds who were above and beyond their peers, over the edge of their despair because they don't fit into a mould? It's like the old proverb says, if you have a hammer you start to see everything as a nail. Brilliance is sometimes like a rare and beautiful flower, it is delicate and needs to be protected and nourished, not smashed because it is not as strong or rigid as the oak trees that populate the forest. This sort of critique is often made of Asiatic societies. But Singapore is more innovative than any other country, so i don't think the "no creativity" thing holds up. Similarly Japan, which has a similarly homogenous system, and is often accused of being unable to create, only to refine, is actually considered by most Westerners to be the most creative society on Earth. There is nothing about bad behaviors: crime, drug use, sexual deviancy, etc. which contributes to a society or helps it grow. If you think collectively, you will necessarily try to reduce bad behaviors in your populace, which includes controlling bad influences that might mislead the impressionable youth. Canine Blues Arooo posted:And your metrics for this are...? Extremely low crime rate, extremely high economic achievement, very strong sense of social cohesion and pride.
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May 4, 2015 18:16
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V. Illych L. posted:mostly i don't enjoy plato for his excessive wordiness and intentional obscurantism, which are problems of form ( This is an ironic critique, as Plato is extremely easy to read. His work is written in a very simple conversational style, it's like reading a play, and he constantly explains what he is saying in very clear terms, with little room for interpretation. Whereas postmodern windbags like Heidegger or Lacan are completely unreadable, and people grant them a lot of credit for some reason.
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May 4, 2015 18:20
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Kyrie eleison posted:This sort of critique is often made of Asiatic societies. But Singapore is more innovative than any other country, so i don't think the "no creativity" thing holds up. Similarly Japan, which has a similarly homogenous system, and is often accused of being unable to create, only to refine, is actually considered by most Westerners to be the most creative society on Earth. You do realise that Singapore imports foreigners by the truckload into mainly management positions and entices foreign investment to set up shop there due to their extremely friendly corporate taxation system. Infact, part of their MO is doing everything to attract the best of foreign talent. It is disingenuous to suggest that what I was saying is 'no creativity' whereas what I am infact saying is 'great people have in many times been deviant and society has destroyed them for it, that is tragic, we should be a system that avoids that'. Alan Turing is a really excellent example of someone who was different, different sexual preferences and different attitudes that made people dislike him. He did not deserve to be treated the way he did and neither did any other person convicted under the law that convicted him. There is likely untold countless people who could have done great things but for authoritarians such as yourself standing astride them and beating them down with dogma. Are you seriously praising the social structure of Japan? The country is having huge native birth problems, the honourific nature of their society compels people to work far longer for far less at great cost to their personal development, resulting in higher rates of suicide and mental illness. Saying Japan is innovative is also somewhat a myth. How would you classify how innovative a country is? The number of Nobel prize winners? Research papers? Meaningful inventions? Silicon Valley alone pumps out more technology that people use than all of Japan combined, and it is one of the most liberal places on the planet. Also you haven't really addressed my point about the whole slave labour thing in Singapore. Should they be grateful that the benevolent PAP has given them the opportunity to work in the blistering heat for basic survival over death?
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May 4, 2015 18:55
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Kyrie eleison posted:This sort of critique is often made of Asiatic societies. But Singapore is more innovative than any other country, so i don't think the "no creativity" thing holds up. Similarly Japan, which has a similarly homogenous system, and is often accused of being unable to create, only to refine, is actually considered by most Westerners to be the most creative society on Earth. Are you at all familiar with the principle of requisite variety? Kyrie eleison posted:This is an ironic critique, as Plato is extremely easy to read. His work is written in a very simple conversational style, it's like reading a play, and he constantly explains what he is saying in very clear terms, with little room for interpretation. Whereas postmodern windbags like Heidegger or Lacan are completely unreadable, and people grant them a lot of credit for some reason. Oops, never mind, that was published after nineteen-thirty and so is "postmodernist".
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May 4, 2015 18:57
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is an ironic critique, as Plato is extremely easy to read. His work is written in a very simple conversational style, it's like reading a play, and he constantly explains what he is saying in very clear terms, with little room for interpretation. Whereas postmodern windbags like Heidegger or Lacan are completely unreadable, and people grant them a lot of credit for some reason. calling heidegger postmodern 
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May 4, 2015 18:59
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I think Kyrie would have preferred Alan Turing to die sooner, because then we wouldn't have the pernicious bad example of his behavior! Never mind that, ah, without his work there might have been a certain degree of advantage, to a certain other party in the conflict of the time - but to be fair, that other party was also very clean, very collectively-oriented, very much thinking of how to suppress the bad in society.
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May 4, 2015 18:59
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is an ironic critique, as Plato is extremely easy to read. His work is written in a very simple conversational style, it's like reading a play, and he constantly explains what he is saying in very clear terms, with little room for interpretation. Whereas postmodern windbags like Heidegger or Lacan are completely unreadable, and people grant them a lot of credit for some reason. On the other hand, the damage Plato and Pythagoras did to freedom of information and experimental process was pretty damning.
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May 4, 2015 19:04
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Kyrie eleison posted:This is an ironic critique, as Plato is extremely easy to read. His work is written in a very simple conversational style, it's like reading a play, and he constantly explains what he is saying in very clear terms, with little room for interpretation. Whereas postmodern windbags like Heidegger or Lacan are completely unreadable, and people grant them a lot of credit for some reason. You mean he wastes a lot of time and never gets to the point.
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May 4, 2015 19:09
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but listen to the cicadas!
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May 4, 2015 19:13
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CommieGIR posted:On the other hand, the damage Plato and Pythagoras did to freedom of information and experimental process was pretty damning.
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May 4, 2015 20:55
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Nessus posted:But is this a negative thing? Should information be free, should people experiment? Yes, says the homosexual in his den of sin, information belongs to everyone. Yes, says the philosopher in his ivory tower of worldliness, experimentation is how we discover the truth. Yes, says the Jesuit, detachment is what allows us to understand God's will. I rejected those answers; instead I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... fascism.
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May 4, 2015 21:08
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Effectronica posted:Yes, says the homosexual in his den of sin, information belongs to everyone. Yes, says the philosopher in his ivory tower of worldliness, experimentation is how we discover the truth. Yes, says the Jesuit, detachment is what allows us to understand God's will. I rejected those answers; instead I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... fascism. Will remain theirs, but at least you will be emotionally gratified.
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May 4, 2015 21:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:Extremely low crime rate, extremely high economic achievement, very strong sense of social cohesion and pride. If 'high economic achievement' is measured by GDP, then I guess that's true, but Singapore sports one of the worst Wealth Disparity problems on the planet, worse than the US by pretty much every measure. 'Sense of Social Cohesion and Pride' isn't exactly something you can measure either. More importantly, for someone who creates a thread with a title suggesting Jesus is the most important thing, you do a pretty poor job of actually following his teachings. You cite 'economic achievement' when Jesus asks people to give up everything worldly to follow his ways, to not treasure worldly wealth, and repeatedly warns the wealthy that their greed will consume their soul. You cite pride as a sign of success when Christ asks for humility
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May 4, 2015 22:25
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:'Sense of Social Cohesion and Pride' isn't exactly something you can measure either. 'Sexual deviancy' damages the 'moral fiber'. What the gently caress does that even mean? Who knows, let's kill some people over it.
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May 5, 2015 02:12
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Kyrie eleison posted:The average American today has a big gap in their knowledge of history between the time of Jesus Christ and the Reformation. It's just one big mysterious time period called the "Dark Ages", and it's regarded as "bad". Many people think that Game of Thrones is a "reasonable substitute" for knowledge of actual medieval history. It's quite by design that 1500 years are missing, even though those 1500 years took us from ancient times to modernity, and should therefore be classified as an unparalleled Western achievement. Instead, we're sold this myth that it was all stagnant over that time until Martin Luther came along and finally got things started by breaking everything apart and atomizing everyone. But if you do a side-by-side comparison, I think you'll find quite a bit of difference between the time of Martin Luther and the time of the fall of Rome, and that is medieval Christianity's achievement. No, they didn't have Apple Watches, but they had some pretty impressive events and discoveries which took place over that time. Speaking as someone raised Lutheran, you are vastly overestimating the importance of Martin Luther in the "average American" mind. I was not taught that the Reformation was the most important turning point in history.
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May 5, 2015 02:59
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