Dragonball Z: https://twitter.com/Love_that_Goku

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Dragonball Z: https://twitter.com/Love_that_Goku

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

Amorphous Blob posted:

Kindly African American man who offers you the dragonballs and also literally the world: blow him up

Oh yeah I wanna talk about Staff Officer Black.

In short, he's an interesting but ~problematic~ character. What makes him interesting is that you cannot just view him in isolation - you need metatextual knowledge to full understand and appreciate the character. Staff Officer/Commander Black (henceforth known as SOB... :laugh:

) spends almost the entire story in the role of Commander Red's tailcoat-clad manservant. Throughout the Red Ribbon story we see that SOB is much more intelligent and reserved than Red and despite being dressed as a manservant has enough authority to order various officers around, though it's hard to say if this mercenary army very closely follows a structure that corresponds to any real army. In the manga, as soon as SOB learns that Red wants to use the dragonballs to become taller, he immediately shoots Red dead. The anime dilutes this moment by having Red betray SOB first, but whatevs. SOB then takes command of the Red Ribbon army but is soon blown up by Goku, ending his and the army's story right then and there, Dr. Gero aside.

The symbols (externals, one might say) associated with SOB, particularly his blackness and tailcoat, evoke some uncomfortable historic scenarios - that of the wealthy Southern (of the USA) gentleman, regardless of whether or not he owns or employs his servants, or that of the wealthy European colonial gentleman, with its own ugly associated baggage. Thankfully we can leave aside the tux-wearing nightmare from minstrel shows since clown lips aside it seems pretty clear that Toriyama was not going for that particular look. Regardless, what are we to make of this character? What I'd like to know if how familiar Toriyama was with the background of the imagery he was borrowing. He clearly must have seen such a character in a film or illustration that had come from the West. In that light, we can see the character's trajectory as a twist on the typical use of such a character - if you're looking at films from the first half of the 20th century, this type of black manservant character generally functioned as scenery to show how wealthy some other character was, was typically kind of dim and poorly spoken if allowed any dialog at all, and generally had zero agency. In that light, SOB breaks all of those conventions - he's intelligent and well spoken and takes control of the proceedings in a very deliberate way. We can applaud the rejection of that type of stock character, but we could also look at it as indicating an issue with depictions of black people in (1985) anime as a whole. If it's subversive for a black character to be intelligent and to be active rather than passive, then that indicates such traits are surprising or out of the ordinary.

SOB is the star of what I'd consider the subplot of the Red Ribbon Army arc in Dragonball. We see how his esteem for Commander Red slowly deflates over the course of the story, so when he finally takes command of the army into his own hands it is a very earned moment, one which the audience naturally celebrates because when we see an intelligent character forced to work for a dumb jerk we identify with that character and want to see them cast off their dumb boss in a way that we can't actually do in real life. On the metatextual side of things, when we encounter this kind of manservant character we're often ripped out of the narrative when the character type played straight because we can tell that whoever wrote the story has opinions about black and/or working class people that we think are gross and not grounded in reality and it makes us uncomfortable to sit back and accept that in the world of this story black/working class people are docile simpletons who exist to serve exciting rich white people who actually do things in the plot. When something that evokes that uncomfortable baggage then affirms what we really believe to be true (ie, that black/working class people can actually be clever and have motives and agency of their own) we feel relieved or even triumphant that those narratives that give us that "icky" feeling have gotten a nice kick to the face (hence the popularity of Jeeves and Wooster, where the manservant is the smart one and the rich guy is the simpleton, and similar narratives like Benson.) On the other hand, we can't even be sure if Toriyama was aware of the anglo master/servant dynamic (as in Frodo/Sam in LOTR) or the American/Colonial master/servant dynamic (as in Tara/Mammy in Gone With the Wind) or if, perhaps more likely, he just saw that image in a film and thought it would be cool to stick in his story about an rear end in a top hat European guy with a Napoleon complex. It's possible that the original Japanese audience doesn't even celebrate SOB's taking control of the situation the way we do because they don't detect the swirling power dynamics around those symbols that western audiences, particularly Americans, Brits, Belgians, and the French ought to.

That aside, it's unclear why this subplot is even here since it pretty much dead-ends ( :v:

) as soon as it comes to the fore. In the main plot, we have a pretty clear progression. Goku seeking a physical connection to his dead father figure by seeking Grandpa Gohan's four star ball. Along the way, he meets a boy, Upa, whose father is killed with the very spear that the boy had sharpened. It's hard not to draw a parallel to how Gohan is killed by Goku in his ozaru form - neither death is the fault of the surviving boy, but both have some sort of real connection to the cause of death. Goku decides to put off his own goal of getting the four star ball in order to wish Upa's father back to life instead. In the end, even though Goku has to wait a year until he has his memento back the way he remembers it, he feels satisfied because by restoring Upa's father to him, Goku himself is restored. People joke how Goku doesn't seem to care much about the four star ball in later stories, but I believe that's intentional. I also think it's not for no reason that right before Upa's father is wished back to life Goku gets a chance to say good-bye to Gohan directly. (Not going to lie, I knew it was coming but when I read that scene in the manga I got a bit misty-eyed.) In short, the Red Ribbon Army story is about confronting the pain of loss and learning from it.

So back to that SOB, his story is basically that he has to tolerate his lovely boss and then finally decides that he can do a better job and takes control, delighting the audience. But then, just as he has our sympathy, he immediately loses and gets blown up, making the whole thing a shaggy dog story. There's no parallel with the main plot. If I were going to rewrite this subplot, I'd probably go in one of three directions.

One: SOB has some kind of loss in his past that compels him to be in the employ of a mercenary army. During Goku's raid of Red Ribbon HQ, he makes peace with his loss and assists Goku in taking out Commander Red. (Subplot is parallel to the main plot.)

Two: SOB has some kind of loss in his past that compels him to be in the employ of a mercenary army. During Goku's raid of Red Ribbon HQ, he is given the opportunity to make peace with his loss and assist Goku in taking out Commander Red but instead he declines. His inability to make peace with his loss as seen as contributing to his death via robot explosion. (Subplot holds a dark mirror to main plot.)

Three: SOB was Mr. Body all along and Red was his butler and Red was only going along with the charade because his wife had some friends who were....socialists.... Goku kills Red by mistake but rectifies that by killing SOB too; then he goes home and sleeps with his wife. (Communism was just a red herring.)

And now the million dollar question: is SOB a racist character? My answer: as racist as Blue is homophobic as Lunch is misogynistic. That is to say, not racist in isolation, but since his good qualities are seen as departures from the expected, we can surmise that manga of the 80s had a dearth of actually good black characters. (And as far as I know, Japan's fiction continues to have a less than nuanced take on black people and still does the loving clown lips thing.)

# ? May 4, 2015 23:46

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:07

Leroy Dennui: Aug 9, 2014; Gina McCarthy made us gay,
but we would not have met
had Biden not dropped his cones

Spidder posted:

- Finally Vegeto was "Vegetagoku" and spoke with like, a billion voices at the same time.

This sounds hilarious, got any clips?

# ? May 5, 2015 00:00

Stallion Cabana: Feb 14, 2012; 1; Get into Grad School

2; Become better at playing Tabletop, both as a player and as a GM/ST/W/E

~~3; Get rid of this goddamn avatar.~~

Rirse posted:

Going with Drowning Rabbit post about looking at the Irwin figures, I ended up looking at a database of figures and statues that were released for Cell and Android 18. Most are general ones and such, and then I found this and I just really creep out that there exist a vore statue of the two.

http://i.imgur.com/9HREV1P.png

She looks so non-plussed. 'Eh whatever I guess.'

# ? May 5, 2015 00:03

tbp: Mar 1, 2008; DU WIRST NIEMALS ALLEINE MARSCHIEREN

can we PLEASE not do the metatextual f*g stuff in this thread about my favorite tv show of all time

# ? May 5, 2015 00:12

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

tbp posted:

can we PLEASE not do the metatextual f*g stuff in this thread about my favorite tv show of all time

this is what happens when you talk about a 30 year old franchise thats only had like 4 hours worth of new material since 1994 for 400 pages.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:15

tbp: Mar 1, 2008; DU WIRST NIEMALS ALLEINE MARSCHIEREN

the art analysis was top notch..dunno wtf is going on with the weird sex post, and that last one though

# ? May 5, 2015 00:16

tbp: Mar 1, 2008; DU WIRST NIEMALS ALLEINE MARSCHIEREN

Stairmaster posted:

this is what happens when you talk about a 30 year old franchise thats only had like 4 hours worth of new material since 1994 for 400 pages.

i am willing to debate who is stronger than whom, and what certain characters could do in order to favorably match up in fights against other characters, endlessly

# ? May 5, 2015 00:17

projecthalaxy: Dec 27, 2008; Yes hello it is I Kurt's Secret Son

Majin Broly.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:19

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

tbp posted:

i am willing to debate who is stronger than whom, and what certain characters could do in order to favorably match up in fights against other characters, endlessly

Vegito beats everyone.

Including Saitama but only if the fight goes to the ground.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:22

Stallion Cabana: Feb 14, 2012; 1; Get into Grad School

2; Become better at playing Tabletop, both as a player and as a GM/ST/W/E

~~3; Get rid of this goddamn avatar.~~

Stairmaster posted:

Vegito beats everyone.

Including Saitama but only if the fight goes to the ground.

Who wins between Saitama and All Might?

Is All Might stronger then Goku?

Pre and Post injury, of course.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:23

Spiritus Nox: Sep 2, 2011

What's OnePunch Man's powerlevel?

# ? May 5, 2015 00:27

Rody One Half: Feb 18, 2011

Spiritus Nox posted:

What's OnePunch Man's powerlevel?

ONE

# ? May 5, 2015 00:30

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

tbp stands for the bad poster

Wish I'd thought to post about Staff Officer Black back when we were talking about black characters in Dragonball on page http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3605321&pagenumber=282 though.

Back to voice actor chat, if you haven't seen this video already, do yourself a favor and watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lHG4zgXlpI That's an excerpt from a panel with a nice selection of the English and Japanese cast having fun together. You can also find the full panel pretty easily. It's a bit of a waste because most of the questions the audience asks are mundane but it's great to see how the actors react to each other and you can tell Schemmel is having some kind of DBZ fanboy-gasm.

E: fixed spoiler tag

# ? May 5, 2015 00:30

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Yeah, Black is just one of those characters where I don't think Toriyama quite understood the imagery he was using. OTOH he named the black guy Black.

I haven't read the manga, but the anime having Red betray really makes Black even more sympathetic than it already was, but he's still written as a guy that also was kind of bad I guess. It would put quite a different spin on the Android Saga if Goku's killing of him was one of Gero's specific grievances.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:32

Dred Cosmonaut: Jan 6, 2010; There once was a tiger-striped cat.

Xibanya posted:

Oh yeah I wanna talk about Staff Officer Black.

In short, he's an interesting but ~problematic~ character. What makes him interesting is that you cannot just view him in isolation - you need metatextual knowledge to full understand and appreciate the character. Staff Officer/Commander Black (henceforth known as SOB... ) spends almost the entire story in the role of Commander Red's tailcoat-clad manservant. Throughout the Red Ribbon story we see that SOB is much more intelligent and reserved than Red and despite being dressed as a manservant has enough authority to order various officers around, though it's hard to say if this mercenary army very closely follows a structure that corresponds to any real army. In the manga, as soon as SOB learns that Red wants to use the dragonballs to become taller, he immediately shoots Red dead. The anime dilutes this moment by having Red betray SOB first, but whatevs. SOB then takes command of the Red Ribbon army but is soon blown up by Goku, ending his and the army's story right then and there, Dr. Gero aside.

The symbols (externals, one might say) associated with SOB, particularly his blackness and tailcoat, evoke some uncomfortable historic scenarios - that of the wealthy Southern (of the USA) gentleman, regardless of whether or not he owns or employs his servants, or that of the wealthy European colonial gentleman, with its own ugly associated baggage. Thankfully we can leave aside the tux-wearing nightmare from minstrel shows since clown lips aside it seems pretty clear that Toriyama was not going for that particular look. Regardless, what are we to make of this character? What I'd like to know if how familiar Toriyama was with the background of the imagery he was borrowing. He clearly must have seen such a character in a film or illustration that had come from the West. In that light, we can see the character's trajectory as a twist on the typical use of such a character - if you're looking at films from the first half of the 20th century, this type of black manservant character generally functioned as scenery to show how wealthy some other character was, was typically kind of dim and poorly spoken if allowed any dialog at all, and generally had zero agency. In that light, SOB breaks all of those conventions - he's intelligent and well spoken and takes control of the proceedings in a very deliberate way. We can applaud the rejection of that type of stock character, but we could also look at it as indicating an issue with depictions of black people in (1985) anime as a whole. If it's subversive for a black character to be intelligent and to be active rather than passive, then that indicates such traits are surprising or out of the ordinary.

SOB is the star of what I'd consider the subplot of the Red Ribbon Army arc in Dragonball. We see how his esteem for Commander Red slowly deflates over the course of the story, so when he finally takes command of the army into his own hands it is a very earned moment, one which the audience naturally celebrates because when we see an intelligent character forced to work for a dumb jerk we identify with that character and want to see them cast off their dumb boss in a way that we can't actually do in real life. On the metatextual side of things, when we encounter this kind of manservant character we're often ripped out of the narrative when the character type played straight because we can tell that whoever wrote the story has opinions about black and/or working class people that we think are gross and not grounded in reality and it makes us uncomfortable to sit back and accept that in the world of this story black/working class people are docile simpletons who exist to serve exciting rich white people who actually do things in the plot. When something that evokes that uncomfortable baggage then affirms what we really believe to be true (ie, that black/working class people can actually be clever and have motives and agency of their own) we feel relieved or even triumphant that those narratives that give us that "icky" feeling have gotten a nice kick to the face (hence the popularity of Jeeves and Wooster, where the manservant is the smart one and the rich guy is the simpleton, and similar narratives like Benson.) On the other hand, we can't even be sure if Toriyama was aware of the anglo master/servant dynamic (as in Frodo/Sam in LOTR) or the American/Colonial master/servant dynamic (as in Tara/Mammy in Gone With the Wind) or if, perhaps more likely, he just saw that image in a film and thought it would be cool to stick in his story about an rear end in a top hat European guy with a Napoleon complex. It's possible that the original Japanese audience doesn't even celebrate SOB's taking control of the situation the way we do because they don't detect the swirling power dynamics around those symbols that western audiences, particularly Americans, Brits, Belgians, and the French ought to.

That aside, it's unclear why this subplot is even here since it pretty much dead-ends () as soon as it comes to the fore. In the main plot, we have a pretty clear progression. Goku seeking a physical connection to his dead father figure by seeking Grandpa Gohan's four star ball. Along the way, he meets a boy, Upa, whose father is killed with the very spear that the boy had sharpened. It's hard not to draw a parallel to how Gohan is killed by Goku in his ozaru form - neither death is the fault of the surviving boy, but both have some sort of real connection to the cause of death. Goku decides to put off his own goal of getting the four star ball in order to wish Upa's father back to life instead. In the end, even though Goku has to wait a year until he has his memento back the way he remembers it, he feels satisfied because by restoring Upa's father to him, Goku himself is restored. People joke how Goku doesn't seem to care much about the four star ball in later stories, but I believe that's intentional. I also think it's not for no reason that right before Upa's father is wished back to life Goku gets a chance to say good-bye to Gohan directly. (Not going to lie, I knew it was coming but when I read that scene in the manga I got a bit misty-eyed.) In short, the Red Ribbon Army story is about confronting the pain of loss and learning from it.

So back to that SOB, his story is basically that he has to tolerate his lovely boss and then finally decides that he can do a better job and takes control, delighting the audience. But then, just as he has our sympathy, he immediately loses and gets blown up, making the whole thing a shaggy dog story. There's no parallel with the main plot. If I were going to rewrite this subplot, I'd probably go in one of three directions.

One: SOB has some kind of loss in his past that compels him to be in the employ of a mercenary army. During Goku's raid of Red Ribbon HQ, he makes peace with his loss and assists Goku in taking out Commander Red. (Subplot is parallel to the main plot.)

Two: SOB has some kind of loss in his past that compels him to be in the employ of a mercenary army. During Goku's raid of Red Ribbon HQ, he is given the opportunity to make peace with his loss and assist Goku in taking out Commander Red but instead he declines. His inability to make peace with his loss as seen as contributing to his death via robot explosion. (Subplot holds a dark mirror to main plot.)

Three: SOB was Mr. Body all along and Red was his butler and Red was only going along with the charade because his wife had some friends who were....socialists.... Goku kills Red by mistake but rectifies that by killing SOB too; then he goes home and sleeps with his wife. (Communism was just a red herring.)

And now the million dollar question: is SOB a racist character? My answer: as racist as Blue is homophobic as Lunch is misogynistic. That is to say, not racist in isolation, but since his good qualities are seen as departures from the expected, we can surmise that manga of the 80s had a dearth of actually good black characters. (And as far as I know, Japan's fiction continues to have a less than nuanced take on black people and still does the loving clown lips thing.)

# ? May 5, 2015 00:32

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

Raxivace posted:

Yeah, Black is just one of those characters where I don't think Toriyama quite understood the imagery he was using. OTOH he named the black guy Black.

I haven't read the manga, but the anime having Red betray really makes Black even more sympathetic than it already was, but he's still written as a guy that also was kind of bad I guess. It would put quite a different spin on the Android Saga if Goku's killing of him was one of Gero's specific grievances.

Yeah the issue with Black is that he's never shown doing anything really bad and then he has these traits that make him sympathetic (having to work for a bad boss, being the one smart non-crazy bad guy). Toriyama had the right idea with Blue, what with Blue murdering people left and right.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:34

Ruggington: Apr 21, 2012

As a black person I aspire to become the second ever black super saiyan or mister popo

Whichever I can reach first

# ? May 5, 2015 00:35

Arsonist Daria: Feb 27, 2011; ^{Requiescat in pace.}

Ruggington posted:

As a black person I aspire to become the second ever black super saiyan or mister popo

Whichever I can reach first

It's a pretty tough choice honestly.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:37

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

Ruggington posted:

As a black person I aspire to become the second ever black super saiyan or mister popo

Whichever I can reach first

I think Bobobo did that first.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:38

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Xibanya posted:

Yeah the issue with Black is that he's never shown doing anything really bad and then he has these traits that make him sympathetic (having to work for a bad boss, being the one smart non-crazy bad guy). Toriyama had the right idea with Blue, what with Blue murdering people left and right.

Shooting missiles from a big robot at a kid is a little bad though, even if that kid is Goku. XD

It would just ruin my day if somebody did that to me.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:41

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Xibanya posted:

Oh yeah I wanna talk about Staff Officer Black.

In short, he's an interesting but ~problematic~ character. What makes him interesting is that you cannot just view him in isolation - you need metatextual knowledge to full understand and appreciate the character. Staff Officer/Commander Black (henceforth known as SOB... ) spends almost the entire story in the role of Commander Red's tailcoat-clad manservant. Throughout the Red Ribbon story we see that SOB is much more intelligent and reserved than Red and despite being dressed as a manservant has enough authority to order various officers around, though it's hard to say if this mercenary army very closely follows a structure that corresponds to any real army. In the manga, as soon as SOB learns that Red wants to use the dragonballs to become taller, he immediately shoots Red dead. The anime dilutes this moment by having Red betray SOB first, but whatevs. SOB then takes command of the Red Ribbon army but is soon blown up by Goku, ending his and the army's story right then and there, Dr. Gero aside.

The symbols (externals, one might say) associated with SOB, particularly his blackness and tailcoat, evoke some uncomfortable historic scenarios - that of the wealthy Southern (of the USA) gentleman, regardless of whether or not he owns or employs his servants, or that of the wealthy European colonial gentleman, with its own ugly associated baggage. Thankfully we can leave aside the tux-wearing nightmare from minstrel shows since clown lips aside it seems pretty clear that Toriyama was not going for that particular look. Regardless, what are we to make of this character? What I'd like to know if how familiar Toriyama was with the background of the imagery he was borrowing. He clearly must have seen such a character in a film or illustration that had come from the West. In that light, we can see the character's trajectory as a twist on the typical use of such a character - if you're looking at films from the first half of the 20th century, this type of black manservant character generally functioned as scenery to show how wealthy some other character was, was typically kind of dim and poorly spoken if allowed any dialog at all, and generally had zero agency. In that light, SOB breaks all of those conventions - he's intelligent and well spoken and takes control of the proceedings in a very deliberate way. We can applaud the rejection of that type of stock character, but we could also look at it as indicating an issue with depictions of black people in (1985) anime as a whole. If it's subversive for a black character to be intelligent and to be active rather than passive, then that indicates such traits are surprising or out of the ordinary.

SOB is the star of what I'd consider the subplot of the Red Ribbon Army arc in Dragonball. We see how his esteem for Commander Red slowly deflates over the course of the story, so when he finally takes command of the army into his own hands it is a very earned moment, one which the audience naturally celebrates because when we see an intelligent character forced to work for a dumb jerk we identify with that character and want to see them cast off their dumb boss in a way that we can't actually do in real life. On the metatextual side of things, when we encounter this kind of manservant character we're often ripped out of the narrative when the character type played straight because we can tell that whoever wrote the story has opinions about black and/or working class people that we think are gross and not grounded in reality and it makes us uncomfortable to sit back and accept that in the world of this story black/working class people are docile simpletons who exist to serve exciting rich white people who actually do things in the plot. When something that evokes that uncomfortable baggage then affirms what we really believe to be true (ie, that black/working class people can actually be clever and have motives and agency of their own) we feel relieved or even triumphant that those narratives that give us that "icky" feeling have gotten a nice kick to the face (hence the popularity of Jeeves and Wooster, where the manservant is the smart one and the rich guy is the simpleton, and similar narratives like Benson.) On the other hand, we can't even be sure if Toriyama was aware of the anglo master/servant dynamic (as in Frodo/Sam in LOTR) or the American/Colonial master/servant dynamic (as in Tara/Mammy in Gone With the Wind) or if, perhaps more likely, he just saw that image in a film and thought it would be cool to stick in his story about an rear end in a top hat European guy with a Napoleon complex. It's possible that the original Japanese audience doesn't even celebrate SOB's taking control of the situation the way we do because they don't detect the swirling power dynamics around those symbols that western audiences, particularly Americans, Brits, Belgians, and the French ought to.

That aside, it's unclear why this subplot is even here since it pretty much dead-ends () as soon as it comes to the fore. In the main plot, we have a pretty clear progression. Goku seeking a physical connection to his dead father figure by seeking Grandpa Gohan's four star ball. Along the way, he meets a boy, Upa, whose father is killed with the very spear that the boy had sharpened. It's hard not to draw a parallel to how Gohan is killed by Goku in his ozaru form - neither death is the fault of the surviving boy, but both have some sort of real connection to the cause of death. Goku decides to put off his own goal of getting the four star ball in order to wish Upa's father back to life instead. In the end, even though Goku has to wait a year until he has his memento back the way he remembers it, he feels satisfied because by restoring Upa's father to him, Goku himself is restored. People joke how Goku doesn't seem to care much about the four star ball in later stories, but I believe that's intentional. I also think it's not for no reason that right before Upa's father is wished back to life Goku gets a chance to say good-bye to Gohan directly. (Not going to lie, I knew it was coming but when I read that scene in the manga I got a bit misty-eyed.) In short, the Red Ribbon Army story is about confronting the pain of loss and learning from it.

So back to that SOB, his story is basically that he has to tolerate his lovely boss and then finally decides that he can do a better job and takes control, delighting the audience. But then, just as he has our sympathy, he immediately loses and gets blown up, making the whole thing a shaggy dog story. There's no parallel with the main plot. If I were going to rewrite this subplot, I'd probably go in one of three directions.

One: SOB has some kind of loss in his past that compels him to be in the employ of a mercenary army. During Goku's raid of Red Ribbon HQ, he makes peace with his loss and assists Goku in taking out Commander Red. (Subplot is parallel to the main plot.)

Two: SOB has some kind of loss in his past that compels him to be in the employ of a mercenary army. During Goku's raid of Red Ribbon HQ, he is given the opportunity to make peace with his loss and assist Goku in taking out Commander Red but instead he declines. His inability to make peace with his loss as seen as contributing to his death via robot explosion. (Subplot holds a dark mirror to main plot.)

Three: SOB was Mr. Body all along and Red was his butler and Red was only going along with the charade because his wife had some friends who were....socialists.... Goku kills Red by mistake but rectifies that by killing SOB too; then he goes home and sleeps with his wife. (Communism was just a red herring.)

And now the million dollar question: is SOB a racist character? My answer: as racist as Blue is homophobic as Lunch is misogynistic. That is to say, not racist in isolation, but since his good qualities are seen as departures from the expected, we can surmise that manga of the 80s had a dearth of actually good black characters. (And as far as I know, Japan's fiction continues to have a less than nuanced take on black people and still does the loving clown lips thing.)

Same

# ? May 5, 2015 00:45

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

Raxivace posted:

Shooting missiles from a big robot at a kid is a little bad though, even if that kid is Goku. XD

It would just ruin my day if somebody did that to me.

Counterpoint - Bulma shot Goku in the face.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:49

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

Xibanya posted:

Counterpoint - Bulma shot Goku in the face.

She was just forcing him to acknowledge his male privilege.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:50

Arsonist Daria: Feb 27, 2011; ^{Requiescat in pace.}

Xibanya posted:

Counterpoint - Bulma shot Goku in the face.

She also married a mass murderer. Coincidence?

# ? May 5, 2015 00:51

Stallion Cabana: Feb 14, 2012; 1; Get into Grad School

2; Become better at playing Tabletop, both as a player and as a GM/ST/W/E

~~3; Get rid of this goddamn avatar.~~

Lumberjack Bonanza posted:

She also married a mass murderer. Coincidence?

I think calling Vegeta a 'mass murderer' is a bit of an understatement.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:52

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Xibanya posted:

Counterpoint - Bulma shot Goku in the face.

Uh clearly she thought Goku had kidnapped that poor fish and was just trying to save it. She only shot him because of a misunderstanding!

Yeah, that's what happened!

# ? May 5, 2015 00:53

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

Lumberjack Bonanza posted:

She also married a mass murderer. Coincidence?

Daily reminder Yamcha has definitely killed multiple people and never been made to answer for his crimes.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:54

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

Stairmaster posted:

Daily reminder Yamcha has definitely killed multiple people and never been made to answer for his crimes.

Who has Yamcha killed aside from Saibamen?

# ? May 5, 2015 00:56

Some Numbers: Sep 28, 2006; "LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Stairmaster posted:

Daily reminder Yamcha has definitely killed multiple people and never been made to answer for his crimes.

The guy's died a couple of times, got dumped by the only girlfriend he's ever had for one of the guys who killed him and has been irrelevant ever since.

Does anyone care that he's killed anyone?

VVV: I forgot that Tien beat him up in the 22nd tournament. Life just sucked for Yamcha.

# ? May 5, 2015 00:57

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Stairmaster posted:

Daily reminder Yamcha has definitely killed multiple people and never been made to answer for his crimes.

He got karmic justice at least. Dude got killed by a loving Saibaman after all. Tien beat the poo poo out of him and then laughed about it in the 22nd Tournament too!

EDIT: Also, one thing I love about the 22nd Tournament was how people just kept pulling out the Kamehameha wave out of their rear end, as well as different ways to use it, to counter it etc. It was pretty fun to watch. I mean Tien fires one off, even.

Raxivace fucked around with this message at 01:00 on May 5, 2015

# ? May 5, 2015 00:57

Namtab: Feb 22, 2010

Stairmaster posted:

Daily reminder Yamcha has definitely killed multiple people and never been made to answer for his crimes.

Goku also has a bodycount

# ? May 5, 2015 01:10

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

I just reread Yamcha's intro chapters in Dragonball and there's zero evidence he's killed anybody. Given his character, he's probably too much of a softie (or wimp based on your opinion) to have ever killed anyone, especially since he never shows a willingness to kill anyone when we can see him.

# ? May 5, 2015 01:14

Rudoku: Jun 15, 2003; Damn I need a drink...

Xibanya posted:

I just reread Yamcha's intro chapters in Dragonball and there's zero evidence he's killed anybody. Given his character, he's probably too much of a softie (or wimp based on your opinion) to have ever killed anyone, especially since he never shows a willingness to kill anyone when we can see him.

He would've loving murdered Goku and Oolong if they didn't bring a pair of boobies with them. Especially Oolong.

# ? May 5, 2015 01:41

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

He says he will but there's no evidence he'll follow through. Since he's shown later to get worked up over goofy poo poo, it suggests he was all talk. Characters show us who they are through their actions - he repeatedly bungles or passes up chances to kill people. The character is not a killer.

Contrast Tao Pai Pai, where his first memorable action is killing a dude. King Piccolo, among whose first memorable actions was ordering the death of all Tenkaichi Budokai participants, the deaths of whom are confirmed either first or second hand to the reader.

# ? May 5, 2015 02:04

Rohan Kishibe: Oct 29, 2011; Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.

Xibanya posted:

I just reread Yamcha's intro chapters in Dragonball and there's zero evidence he's killed anybody. Given his character, he's probably too much of a softie (or wimp based on your opinion) to have ever killed anyone, especially since he never shows a willingness to kill anyone when we can see him.

A guy who hasn't ever killed anyone is definitely the kind of guy to just loving shoot a bus with a bazooka.

# ? May 5, 2015 02:21

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Remember when the cast decided not to warn the tenkaichi budokai contestants that King Piccolo's men were hunting them down with the intent to kill?

# ? May 5, 2015 02:26

Blaze Dragon: Aug 28, 2013; LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

I just watched Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans.

Holy poo poo that was terrible. Even the animation was horrible, and I'm not sure if to even call it animation considering how it was a bunch of jump-cuts because fight scenes are hard to draw. Even the beams are drawn all as non-specific blue/white things, including Piccolo's Makankosappo.

I think this might be the single worst Dragon Ball thing. At least Bio-Broly had good moments, and I can laugh at how loving stupid the Super Saiyan Bardock thing was.

# ? May 5, 2015 02:29

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Blaze Dragon posted:

I just watched Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans.

Holy poo poo that was terrible. Even the animation was horrible, and I'm not sure if to even call it animation considering how it was a bunch of jump-cuts because fight scenes are hard to draw. Even the beams are drawn all as non-specific blue/white things, including Piccolo's Makankosappo.

I think this might be the single worst Dragon Ball thing. At least Bio-Broly had good moments, and I can laugh at how loving stupid the Super Saiyan Bardock thing was.

And to think it was originally a FMV video game made entirely out of lovely quick time events. Makes sense, honestly.

# ? May 5, 2015 02:36

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Blaze Dragon posted:

I just watched Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans.

Holy poo poo that was terrible. Even the animation was horrible, and I'm not sure if to even call it animation considering how it was a bunch of jump-cuts because fight scenes are hard to draw. Even the beams are drawn all as non-specific blue/white things, including Piccolo's Makankosappo.

I think this might be the single worst Dragon Ball thing. At least Bio-Broly had good moments, and I can laugh at how loving stupid the Super Saiyan Bardock thing was.

Bio-Broly had 18, Goten, and Trunks doing things so it is cool in my book.

# ? May 5, 2015 02:40

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:07

Xibanya: Sep 17, 2012; Clever Betty

Prison Warden posted:

A guy who hasn't ever killed anyone is definitely the kind of guy to just loving shoot a bus with a bazooka.

Given that we see Shu and Mai get blown the gently caress up and they come off no worse than Wile E. Coyote such methods come off as less-than-fatal. I think it's a thematic/context issue. If he did the same in the Red Ribbon arc when that kind of thing was shown to have consequences, I'd be agreeing with you.

# ? May 5, 2015 02:51

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Dragonball Z: https://twitter.com/Love_that_Goku

«‹›571 »