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Bobo the Red posted:The way the show rolls out makes it easy to forget how terrible people are. Theon and Jaime are the two big ones. Theon betrayed the people who raised him and murdered a bunch of them, all so he could get in good with people whose life philosophy is 'rape and pillage', and Jaime... Jaime threw a kid out a window, killed Ned's guards just because he could, and was generally a huge rear end in a top hat. Alfie Allen is killing it with the performance, though, for all ninety seconds of it every other episode. All the body language stuff -- the inability to make eye contact, the shuffling gait, the hunched-over posture -- it's sometimes difficult to remember that yeah, this is the guy who did bad stuff a couple years ago
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May 5, 2015 08:27
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Alfie Allen is killing it with the performance, though, for all ninety seconds of it every other episode. All the body language stuff -- the inability to make eye contact, the shuffling gait, the hunched-over posture -- it's sometimes difficult to remember that yeah, this is the guy who did bad stuff a couple years ago Yeah, his likely run in with sansa should be a lot of fun.
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May 5, 2015 08:37
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frankenfreak posted:I'm sure Balon disagrees with that. Balon is so inconsequential that even the Red God's blood-leech magic hasn't been bothered to get around to offing him like it did the usurpers Joffrey Baratheon and Robb Stark. 
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May 5, 2015 08:40
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Bobo the Red posted:The way the show rolls out makes it easy to forget how terrible people are. Theon and Jaime are the two big ones. Theon betrayed the people who raised him and murdered a bunch of them, all so he could get in good with people whose life philosophy is 'rape and pillage', and Jaime... Jaime threw a kid out a window, killed Ned's guards just because he could, and was generally a huge rear end in a top hat. He also literally murders his own cousin and also kills the son of FATHERS LOVE THEIR SONS guy (which kind of ended up causing Robb's army to fall apart)
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May 5, 2015 09:21
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The problem with Barristan Selmy apparently dying even though he totally radically killed ten dudes before kicking the bucket: There's almost no giants in the world. The fact that we see even two is amazing. The death of one is like seeing the death of a unicorn, so even though we've only seen them twice in the whole show it's amazing when one dies killing Grenn. It's David vs Goliath with epic consequences. Barristan Selmy smashed ten beetles. Kunk, kunk, kunk. Then one of them killed him, before likewise dying. Who? We'll never know. Why? He'll never be able to say. Will anyone take revenge for him or mourn him? No, because he was 'Man In Harpy Mask #25'. Did smashing those beetles change anything in the world? There's somewhere between One and Infinity beetles in the world and whether or not you take out those ten change nothing. He didn't even manage to save anyone, everyone else is dead in that gutter, there's no one to tell Barristan Selmy's story or to find any appreciation in his in his sacrifice. Because there was no sacrifice. 
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May 5, 2015 09:32
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Jesto posted:The problem with Barristan Selmy apparently dying even though he totally radically killed ten dudes before kicking the bucket: But isn't that kinda the point? Dany has been loving this up and loving this up, and now it cost her most trusted ally. No ceremony, no grand sacrifice to right things, no catharsis. She hosed up, he died, and things are still a mess. Before, her inept rule had consequences for other people. She has to figure this out, not just for the grand ideal of being a just queen, but because if she doesn't, she and her allies are in a great deal of actual danger.
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May 5, 2015 09:53
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frankenfreak posted:I'm sure Balon disagrees with that. Balon doesn't consider Theon a stark, he considers him not a Greyjoy which is an altogether different thing Jerusalem posted:Balon is so inconsequential that even the Red God's blood-leech magic hasn't been bothered to get around to offing him like it did the usurpers Joffrey Baratheon and Robb Stark. That's actually a really weird plot hole considering how that was addressed in, what, the second book? third?
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May 5, 2015 09:55
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Bobo the Red posted:Ned states pretty clearly that Robert would end the children and Cersei quite brutally, yeah. My point is that, in all those years, Robert never thought to reject them, which means they were his heirs when he died. When Robert died, Stannis's duty was to support his legal nephew, lord of his house, and king. He chose to believe an uncorroborated story instead, because it worked better for him. The bigger thing is that Ned came to power and learned Jon Arryn was investigating "something", then dying in a questionable manner. Ned was just able to get some sort of word out before he was relieved of his duty, which is what pissed off everyone. Yes "legallly" Stannis should have supported his nephew, but most people able to connect the same dots probably would do the same thing Stannis did and would be very skeptical of the situation at least. Stannis is just an rear end in a top hat and went full bore into the rebellion.
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May 5, 2015 09:56
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Toxxupation posted:That's actually a really weird plot hole considering how that was addressed in, what, the second book? third? Shame on you. I figure Balon was only important to motivate Theon's idiocy, and whatever fate he and his lovely compatriots meet can remain an eternal mystery for all I care. I mean, holy poo poo, why would you allow people whose godamn life philosophy is 'murder, theft, and rape' into your kingdom? Burn it down, man. Quabzor posted:The bigger thing is that Ned came to power and learned Jon Arryn was investigating "something", then dying in a questionable manner. Ned was just able to get some sort of word out before he was relieved of his duty, which is what pissed off everyone. Most people might do what he did; what he did is not an unreasonable reaction for a normal person. But for someone whose whole schtick is a dedication to duty? Not so much. That's my issue. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 10:05 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 09:59
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Toxxupation posted:Balon doesn't consider Theon a stark, he considers him not a Greyjoy which is an altogether different thing "My fears have come true. The Starks have made you theirs." Plus referring to Ned stark as "[Theon's] new father". Etc. Maybe he's not being literal, but you could build a fairly reasonable case for it.
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May 5, 2015 10:23
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Bobo the Red posted:I'm actually not sure that I buy 'not many people would knight him' narrative. He loving saved the entire town, and the war effort with it. I think most politically savvy leaders would see the symbolic value of knighting him, and any intelligent ones would welcome his talent. Certainly Tyrion would have rewarded him similarly, as I think would Tywin, Ned, or Robert. And he would've kept his fingers. Also, if Davos sticks with Stannis after Stannis sacs his own daughter, gently caress Davos. You don't seem to get this, but Davos values the fact that Stannis punished him. Because Davos was a criminal. He appreciates that Stannis didn't simply say 'well, you are a criminal, but you helped me out, so that's ok, I'll just forgive everything bad you've done.' You don't need to 'buy' this narrative. It's what the show is telling you. Davos says he's thankful for Stannis knighting him and cutting his fingers and that it shows his character all the time. There is no reason to believe this isn't true. quote:Stannis's offer to Renly is irrelevant to the fact that Stannis murdered his kin. Also, Renly wasn't a shithead, he was actually the most likeable, kind candidate for the throne, and he had far greater support than Stannis Stannis murders Renly as a direct consequence of the fact that 1) Stannis has a legitimate claim to be king, and 2) Renly decides to try and become king himself. Neither of these were Stannis' decisions. Renly, in order to be king, would have to kill Stannis. But, unlike Stannis, he got into the situation himself. He is not in line to be king, he just decides he wants to be king and if that means killing his brother, who does have a rightful claim, then so be it. This makes Renly worse than Stannis. That he failed and died before killing Stannis doesn't really make him any better. quote:Because that is what Stannis is trying to do: USURP the throne. Ned Stark's 'research' wasn't anything but reading in a book that Baratheons usually have black hair. So what? Not all the Starks had the same godamn hair color as Ned. It's not proof, it's conjecture based on a rumor. Yes, we know them to be right, but neither Ned or Stannis were going on absolutely any evidence. The fact that we, the audience, know that the children are not Robert's, is incredibly important, because in the context of these pseudo-medieval times, there can't actually be any 'proof'. The hair color thing is very persuasive because this is fiction. It's written so that, in the context of the story, that's actually strong evidence. You don't have to play detective and look at everyone else's hair color. But Ned isn't simply going by the hair evidence, anyway. Cersei explicitly tells him that the children aren't Robert's. She admits it gleefully. Bobo the Red posted:Most people might do what he did; what he did is not an unreasonable reaction for a normal person. But for someone whose whole schtick is a dedication to duty? Not so much. That's my issue. Stannis doesn't have a duty to support his nephew, though. We know what the sequence of events was. Ned Stark confronted Cersei and she explicitly said the kids weren't Robert's. Then Robert was dying and wrote that he wanted Ned Stark to take care of the kingdom until Joffrey came of age. Cersei took Robert's letter, destroyed it, said there was a new king now, and then had Ned Stark imprisoned, and then Joffrey had him executed. This would look very strange to anyone, in any context, but the show has also established that many people believed Ned Stark to be an honest, honorable man, so it looks even stranger. And there were plenty of people at Ned's arrest, enough that people in general would know a bit about what happened, how it went down, etc. Now in S5, you see people on the streets openly calling Tommen an abomination. Bronn pretty much tells Jaime that he knows. Tyrion knows. Most people 'know'. Yeah, they don't have a paternity test or anything, but this is clearly not a well-kept secret anymore, it's a reality. The Lannisters are only able to get away with it through military and financial might, and that won't last long. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 10:46 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 10:24
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Bobo the Red posted:
I can't say that that is a bad point to make, but with the addition of milisandre, I feel like it's less of his dedication to duty an more of his dedication of what she says is his duty. He isn't exactly making his own choices right now and just doing whatever is his destinty according to her.
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May 5, 2015 10:26
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Alfie Allen is killing it with the performance, though, for all ninety seconds of it every other episode. Definitely. At first I found the whole S3 torture plot unnecessary, but I've since re-contextualized it as a brilliant comment on the audience and their desire for violence. Because after season 2 and all the hosed up stuff Theon did, I hated him so much and totally wanted him to face some kind of justice. Ultimately, we all got that wish...but it was horrifying and terrible, and we all regretted it. The sheer, prolonged cruelty of the whole thing became a sort of vicarious punishment for the audience for wanting it in the first place; I wanted Theon to suffer, but goddamn. I suspect the show will sooner or later turn a lot of those cathartic impulses on their head, the "justice" we want happening too late or in a way that feels awful. It's going to be so upsetting when the Lannisters fall apart, because Joffrey and Tywin were assholes. But Tommen is a nice kid who's over his head and too decent to fight back. He doesn't deserve what his family's brought on his name, but there's no way to get out of it. (I also suspect, longer-term, Arya will become a badass murder wizard. But by then, everyone she wanted to kill will already be dead, the people she will kill will provide no catharsis, and her entire story will amount to a vibrant young girl who literally gave up her entire identity in a futile pursuit of revenge.)
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May 5, 2015 11:24
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Asehujiko posted:I like how the faction that's three badly accented women operating out of half a tent on a beach somewhere just happens to have a bucket-o-scorpions on hand with which to torture somebody that just switched sides to them and ratted out their enemy. Priorities! they didnt show you how much trouble it took them to get a courier snake and trick myrcella into giving her necklace using the "i'll give it back" ruse Ilustforponydeath posted:Someone sullied them. all that lullaby action they've been getting on the side has made them weak Alan Smithee fucked around with this message at 11:44 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 11:40
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So with that necklace thing. Did Cersei open it, see what it was, then reseal that overly complex lock so it could dramatically open again for Jaime?
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May 5, 2015 11:46
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Aishan posted:So with that necklace thing. Did Cersei open it, see what it was, then reseal that overly complex lock so it could dramatically open again for Jaime? I think so. Or she had someone do it for her because she never does anything herself.
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May 5, 2015 12:17
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Bobo the Red posted:But isn't that kinda the point? Dany has been loving this up and loving this up, and now it cost her most trusted ally. No ceremony, no grand sacrifice to right things, no catharsis. She hosed up, he died, and things are still a mess. Before, her inept rule had consequences for other people. She has to figure this out, not just for the grand ideal of being a just queen, but because if she doesn't, she and her allies are in a great deal of actual danger. I kind of love how she went from hyper-competent conquer to absolutely incompetent ruler, but that's not unrealistic at all. Lots of conquering armies have been undone by lovely handling of occupations, right up to today. DaveWoo posted:Yes, one day there will come a Rickoning Seriously if Rickon comes back a badass down the line, it'll be amazing. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 12:32 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 12:28
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Aishan posted:So with that necklace thing. Did Cersei open it, see what it was, then reseal that overly complex lock so it could dramatically open again for Jaime? well you gotta admit it's like a really badass jack in the box
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May 5, 2015 12:35
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Xealot posted:(I also suspect, longer-term, Arya will become a badass murder wizard. But by then, everyone she wanted to kill will already be dead, the people she will kill will provide no catharsis, and her entire story will amount to a vibrant young girl who literally gave up her entire identity in a futile pursuit of revenge.) I think you mean she kills Meryn Trant and then reunites with Syrio 
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May 5, 2015 12:38
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Bobo the Red posted:
quote:Stannis's offer to Renly is irrelevant to the fact that Stannis murdered his kin. Also, Renly wasn't a shithead, he was actually the most likeable, kind candidate for the throne, and he had far greater support than Stannis, and Stannis was a jealous baby who thought he had more right to usurp the throne than Renly. Stannis' dour disposition does not remove him from as rightful heir to the throne. Renly had no right to take up arms and go into rebellion against his own brother, just because he thought his brother was a dick. If anyone is acting like a jealous baby, it's Renly, who thought he could ignore the lines of succession because he was more of a people person. This isn't the republican primary where the most likeable guy gets the nod. With the exception of signing off on Melissandre's burn-the-heretics, there has been nothing to suggest Stannis wouldn't be a good king. He has treated everyone fairly, and according to Littlefinger is the best military commander in Westeros, and the lawful heir to the throne.
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May 5, 2015 13:03
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Pedro De Heredia posted:This would look very strange to anyone, in any context, but the show has also established that many people believed Ned Stark to be an honest, honorable man, so it looks even stranger. And there were plenty of people at Ned's arrest, enough that people in general would know a bit about what happened, how it went down, etc.
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May 5, 2015 13:40
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Speaking of that, where are all of those White Walkers? Wasn't there a scene seasons ago that showed a huge army marching south? Does it really take this tireless army of the dead that long to show up at the wall? Jon Snow has been north and back a few times since then, right?
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May 5, 2015 14:00
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Obligatory Handle posted:Speaking of that, where are all of those White Walkers? Wasn't there a scene seasons ago that showed a huge army marching south? Does it really take this tireless army of the dead that long to show up at the wall? Jon Snow has been north and back a few times since then, right? They'll arrive as soon as Gendry stops rowing, or maybe about the same time as when we check in on Balon Greyjoy next.
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May 5, 2015 14:06
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Bobo the Red posted:I figure Balon was only important to motivate Theon's idiocy, and whatever fate he and his lovely compatriots meet can remain an eternal mystery for all I care. I mean, holy poo poo, why would you allow people whose godamn life philosophy is 'murder, theft, and rape' into your kingdom? Burn it down, man. Someone said it in this thread before, but the Iron Islanders are legends only in their own heads. They talk themselves up constantly, but get the absolute poo poo kicked out of them at the first hint of any real resistance. It's wonderfully cathartic.
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May 5, 2015 14:26
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Brony Hunter posted:They'll arrive as soon as Gendry stops rowing, or maybe about the same time as when we check in on Balon Greyjoy next. Winter is coming, also.
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May 5, 2015 14:26
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:The Night's Watch actually did better in the same scenario. These Essos warriors... maybe a bit overrated? Probably more suited to open battlefields than city streets. Same as pretty much every Army ever.
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May 5, 2015 14:35
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tooterfish posted:Balon exists to be hilarious. I want to see them lose some more battles. It's always hilarious!
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May 5, 2015 16:11
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Obligatory Handle posted:Speaking of that, where are all of those White Walkers? Wasn't there a scene seasons ago that showed a huge army marching south? Does it really take this tireless army of the dead that long to show up at the wall? Jon Snow has been north and back a few times since then, right? That scened was done so poorly that it has everyone confused. The army of white walkers was simply marching to where the Night's Watch was camped. If I remember correctly there was a split in seasons between showing the white walkers on the move, and then the decimated Night's Watch running for safety. Doubtless the gap didn't help to clear things up.
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May 5, 2015 16:24
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Not to get too involved in this nonsense, but in the books, it was actually Stannis who first suspected that Robert's children were not actually his, and enlisted Jon Arryn's help in researching it.
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May 5, 2015 17:02
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Xealot posted:Definitely. At first I found the whole S3 torture plot unnecessary, but I've since re-contextualized it as a brilliant comment on the audience and their desire for violence. Yeah and the Dany plot is brilliant comment on the audience and their desire for being really bored and rolling your eyes a lot
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May 5, 2015 17:04
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This whole series is a comment on how dull and uninspired something needs to be to be commercially successful Good show though
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May 5, 2015 17:13
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Bobo the Red posted:You are effectively rooting for a system where a man can accuse a woman of adultery and have her and her children stripped of title and put to death with no actual evidence. Which is precisely what Stannis intends to do.
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May 5, 2015 17:31
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Mr. Unlucky posted:one of the first scenes of the show is ned cutting off some poor scared kids head cause thems the rules, even though he was completely right and there are magic zombie whatevers. I always wondered how that get got through the wall. Didn't the events happen north of the wall with the white walkers, then he is south. HEY OPEN THAT GATE, I WANT TO RUN AWAY! OK, thanks!
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May 5, 2015 17:36
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Obligatory Handle posted:Speaking of that, where are all of those White Walkers? Wasn't there a scene seasons ago that showed a huge army marching south? Does it really take this tireless army of the dead that long to show up at the wall? Jon Snow has been north and back a few times since then, right? The word got out that a single fat nobody cook killed their best man, so they just said gently caress it and ran back north.
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May 5, 2015 17:38
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If Tommen dies who is next in line for the throne? Does it go to Myrcella, or does it actually then becomes Sannis's at long last?
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May 5, 2015 17:38
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the-jam posted:Richard had his nephews declared bastards, imprisoned and possibly murdered.
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May 5, 2015 17:41
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EccoRaven posted:If Tommen dies who is next in line for the throne? Does it go to Myrcella, or does it actually then becomes Sannis's at long last? The Lannisters and Tyrells all shrug and give Stannis a phone call
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May 5, 2015 17:51
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Stannis murders Renly as a direct consequence of the fact that 1) Stannis has a legitimate claim to be king, and 2) Renly decides to try and become king himself. Neither of these were Stannis' decisions. Renly would absolutely not have had to kill Stannis to have been king, and he didn't seem remotely interested in doing so. Stannis had a small irrelevant army that was shrinking. Renly never needed to kill Stannis, he just needed to beat him, which was going to happen. Stannis, had he the superior army, would also likely not have killed him (until Mel told him to). But in desperation, he uses dark magic and murders him. He acknowledges that what he is doing is wrong, which he basically never does. quote:The fact that we, the audience, know that the children are not Robert's, is incredibly important, because in the context of these pseudo-medieval times, there can't actually be any 'proof'. The hair color thing is very persuasive because this is fiction. It's written so that, in the context of the story, that's actually strong evidence. You don't have to play detective and look at everyone else's hair color. Ned absolutely IS going by the hair evidence. He just happened to have gone to Cersei first instead of Robert, and she confirmed it. Would he have taken a denial as proof of her innocence? gently caress, for all he knows, she said that poo poo just to make him mad. But even if Ned had a sufficient amount of evidence to act, and god knows he had at least 3 separate opportunities to handle the situation, STANNIS doesn't. Stannis has all of a letter someone wrote him, and if a letter incites you to rebel, you are not loyal or dutiful. quote:Stannis doesn't have a duty to support his nephew, though. We know what the sequence of events was. Ned Stark confronted Cersei and she explicitly said the kids weren't Robert's. Then Robert was dying and wrote that he wanted Ned Stark to take care of the kingdom until Joffrey came of age. Cersei took Robert's letter, destroyed it, said there was a new king now, and then had Ned Stark imprisoned, and then Joffrey had him executed. Ned also explicitly disobeyed Robert's command. He didn't write 'Joffrey' on the letter, even though that is what the king told him to do. Given the weight of the letter, what Ned did there was treason. Well intentioned treason, but treason. TyrantWD posted:Tywin, Ned and Robert would knight a lowborn smuggler for one good deed? Highly unlikely. One truly massive good deed. And why would it be unlikely? Ned was a better person than Stannis, and would value Davos's acts the same way, Robert would admire the bravado and generally thought ceremony was bullshit anyway. Tywin was a pragmatist and loved giving out titles to reward usefulness and loyalty. quote:With the exception of signing off on Melissandre's burn-the-heretics, there has been nothing to suggest Stannis wouldn't be a good king. He has treated everyone fairly, and according to Littlefinger is the best military commander in Westeros, and the lawful heir to the throne. Pretty loving big exception there. Also, he has treated everyone fairly? What show are you watching? HE BURNS PEOPLE ALIVE AT SOMEONE ELSE'S WHIM. He was going to burn Gendry for the crime of being his brother's son. The lawful heir to the throne is Daenerys Targaryen, sadly. Away all Goats posted:I think you mean she kills Meryn Trant and then reunites with Syrio Syrio has been hiding behind the face of Meryn Trant this whole time EccoRaven posted:If Tommen dies who is next in line for the throne? Does it go to Myrcella, or does it actually then becomes Sannis's at long last? It would favor Stannis over Myrcella, but Stannis is a traitor to the crown, so it goes to Myrcella, I think
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May 5, 2015 18:00
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I think the Tyrells might give Stannis a call and say, "Hey, you wanna divorce your wife and marry Margaery?
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May 5, 2015 18:02
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PowerBuilder3 posted:I always wondered how that get got through the wall. Didn't the events happen north of the wall with the white walkers, then he is south. The Watch only really mans three outposts on the wall, and well, they have even less success trying to patrol the waters on either side, hence why wildlings are able to get south of the wall. So its possible that he either slipped through one of the old outposts in a reverse of what Bran and co would later do, or he found a boat and managed to make it around.
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May 5, 2015 18:03
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