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A common interpretation of Jake is that he is assigned qualities commonly exhibited by weak female characters. Presumably this was done in an attempt to surpass those cliches and criticize why they don't work. The characters around him treat him like an object, he is often contrived into compromising situations, his competence remains mostly theoretical, and much ado is made of his good looks and tiny pants. It can be read similarly to the notion that Jade, in her introduction, was meant to resemble the notion of a Mary Sue, a conspicuously special newcomer with a crowded and extravagant backstory and the capability and willingness to exert disproportionate influence on the plot by unprecedented means. In her case, it turned out that all of these qualities were actually foreshadowing and everything was about to get that much larger-than-life. Jake's arc hasn't come full circle yet. But today we've learned something significant about him: he blames himself for all of the bad friendship that's gone on between him and his friends. This is because, like (and to the extent that he is) the sexist cliche he's mirroring, his narrative universe is constructed to hold him culpable for others' failure to recognize him as a person. Everything that goes on with him, socially, is because of what he is to the others, and he's internalized that even though it's them that are the jabronis. There's no philosophically easy way out of this dilemma, because the issue he's bringing to the table is highly pernicious. But I got a feeling we'll get some solid steps toward a resolution before we run out of horses. (I note with amusement that his gratitude towards Tavros is exactly the same as his gratitude toward Erisol was, even though the sentiment is the opposite. I don't know what that means. Maybe it will make more sense tomorrow.) Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 06:26 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 06:23
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Admittedly Tavros trying to put the moves on Jake was pretty funny.
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May 5, 2015 06:26
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I think there might be something interesting to the fact that Jake is an obvious parody of the "Token Girl" character, meant to skewer the absurdity of the sexy ditzy action grrl who needs constant saving and whose subplot mostly concerns their love-life - and people react really negatively to him, and not just in the context of acknowledging the critique and that those stereotypes are bad. Would the reaction have been less negative if he had actually been a female character? I assume the fact that he'd be all those negative female archetypes played straight would be really obvious and people would probably criticize Hussie for having such a character (or reserve judgement, since Hussie would probably be planning some other kind of parody). Still, it'd be interesting to see if people would more readily excuse passivity, naivety and romantic self-absorption. That might fall in line with what Dave was talking about regarding societal expectations of masculinity, our desire to see Jake "man up" and deal with his problems head on. Dolash fucked around with this message at 06:30 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 06:28
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Speaking as a woman, gently caress the gently caress off. Reading that scene again though, I had forgotten how self absorbed his obliviousness was. I'll admit he was worse than I remembered. Edit: Oh... this took me a while to write 'cause I got caught up in rereading homestuck bullshit. I guess the situation was clarified already... No worries then. Eiba fucked around with this message at 06:32 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 06:29
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Eiba posted:Edit: Oh... this took me a while to write 'cause I got caught up in rereading homestuck bullshit. I guess the situation was clarified already... No worries then.
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May 5, 2015 06:35
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Eiba posted:So Tavros and Jake are indeed pathetic. And I get why they're... not exactly beloved. But why do people hate them so much? That just seems mean, given how pathetic they clearly are. I can understand pitying them, and even wishing they didn't get as much screen time 'cause it's not fun to watch... but hating them? I don't get that. It's not like they're hurting anyone but themselves. Because in a cast full of passive characters that do nothing but whine about the paths they drift down due to taking no proactive initiatives whatsoever, they are by far the most passive and whiny. I was overjoyed when Tavros floated up up and away from the Good Characters and it's my headcanon that he was immediately erased by LE and nobody noticed or cared.
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May 5, 2015 06:40
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I'm intrigued by the idea of Tavapesprite.
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May 5, 2015 08:12
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If anyone asks me why I dislike Vriska, I will just point at this page and look them straight in the eyes. I would love to see at least Jake develop somewhat as a character, possibly via a better understanding of what he did wrong (notice how he just assumes everything is on his head, without actually pinpointing what the problem was). It is far too late for Tavros now, short of the pre-retcon rebel Tavros appearing surreptiously for some reason and creating 2xTavrosprite. God I always feel so sorry for Pages.
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May 5, 2015 08:38
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tbh I kinda feel like the whole vriska-tavros thing is an 8-bit theatre-esque Play Against Expectations joke thats gone on way too long and only becomes more uncomfortable as it continues. Yes Hussie, we get that "the timid dude finally stands up to the people who poo poo on him and walks tall with newfound self-confidence" is a cliche power fantasy but it's not really clever to keep hammering its inversion into the ground over half a decade since you first introduced the characters.
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May 5, 2015 08:45
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paradoxGentleman posted:It is far too late for Tavros now, short of the pre-retcon rebel Tavros appearing surreptiously for some reason and creating 2xTavrosprite. Now that you mention it, Vriska reminding us that Tavros is just once-prototyped and can still be double-typed seems like setup for something prototyping him in the future. Tavros and Vriska being briefly merged into Tavriska seemed like a good setup for them coming to understand each other, although it's hard to judge if that actually went anywhere, maybe there's some other way to impart some spine to Tavros. Alternatively, Vriska gets prototyped again and this time circumstances are just changed enough that they don't explode, trapping Vriska forever.
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May 5, 2015 09:17
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mr. stefan posted:tbh I kinda feel like the whole vriska-tavros thing is an 8-bit theatre-esque Play Against Expectations joke thats gone on way too long and only becomes more uncomfortable as it continues. Yes Hussie, we get that "the timid dude finally stands up to the people who poo poo on him and walks tall with newfound self-confidence" is a cliche power fantasy but it's not really clever to keep hammering its inversion into the ground over half a decade since you first introduced the characters. I can't help but think it'll just end the exact same way it's ended twice before, and just like last time it will be less effective than the time previous.
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May 5, 2015 09:18
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Mentioning that Tavros could accidentally prototype himself again is a definite setup for something later. You don't point that out and then not use it. The question is if that's going to be part of the plan or something accidental.
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May 5, 2015 09:54
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Accidentally prototyping Tavros with Lord English will prove to be the key to victory.
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May 5, 2015 10:06
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Vriska was actually speaking the truth, prototyping Tavros and Jape will create a weenie singularity.
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May 5, 2015 10:24
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Jake is self-centered, but he at least understands that he has made mistakes and is trying to correct himself. Vriska is both self-centered and an rear end in a top hat.
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May 5, 2015 10:31
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I don't think anyone actually likes Vriska as an individual, but as a character she's one of the best in the comic.
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May 5, 2015 11:08
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It would be neat if confident rebel tavros drifted in and prototyped himself with super weenie tavros to create a new character known as 'well-balanced tavros'
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May 5, 2015 11:56
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Since confident rebel Tavros was just super weenie Tavros pretending really hard to not be a weenie, you'd still end up with a weenie singularity.
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May 5, 2015 12:01
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Tavros and Jape deserve eachother.Kelp Plankton posted:Mentioning that Tavros could accidentally prototype himself again is a definite setup for something later. You don't point that out and then not use it. Also, the whole quote:VRISKA: It's time to face the facts. You're never going to have that "8ig moment" that vindic8tes your arc of personal development. It's just not going to happen! I wonder if that will be played straight, or if Tavros will actually get his big moment.
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May 5, 2015 12:37
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Jake did nothing wrong.
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May 5, 2015 12:59
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Oxyclean posted:I wonder if that will be played straight, or if Tavros will actually get his big moment. I really should have learned my lesson about Pages by now, but I still hope so.
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May 5, 2015 13:01
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LOCUST FART HELL posted:Jake did nothing wrong. He also did nothing right. It would, in fact, be appropriate to say he did nothing.
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May 5, 2015 13:04
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I took an acrobatic loving pirouette off the handle. Sorry about that! That was a Jake interpretation I tried to tell you about earlier too, see it's not just me  Andrew Hussie does not just repeatedly call attention to booty shorts for no reason, people
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May 5, 2015 13:16
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Cthulhuchan posted:Since confident rebel Tavros was just super weenie Tavros pretending really hard to not be a weenie, you'd still end up with a weenie singularity. Pretending or not, the dude flipped vriska the double bird, called her a jerk, and said to her face that he was tired of her poo poo. That's more than we get from most other characters. TAVROS: i THINK, tHE BOTTOM LINE OF THAT, iS, TAVROS: i DON'T WANT TO BE YOUR POOPMASTER ANYMORE, TAVROS: sO i'M NOT GOING TO BE,
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May 5, 2015 13:20
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Yeah considering Vriska's reaction whenever Tavros actually did stand up to her, and also the very real bodily harm she did him on multiple occasions, it's kind of hard for me to buy the "she had his best interests at heart the whole time" reading Like, I've heard that whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but if it leaves you permanently wheelchairbound instead of killing you that might not apply.
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May 5, 2015 13:23
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Dolash posted:Now that you mention it, Vriska reminding us that Tavros is just once-prototyped and can still be double-typed seems like setup for something prototyping him in the future. Tavros and Vriska being briefly merged into Tavriska seemed like a good setup for them coming to understand each other, although it's hard to judge if that actually went anywhere, maybe there's some other way to impart some spine to Tavros. Alternatively, Vriska gets prototyped again and this time circumstances are just changed enough that they don't explode, trapping Vriska forever. They really needed to just chuck a cool hat or something at Tavrosprite to be safe.
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May 5, 2015 13:27
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GunnerJ posted:They really needed to just chuck a cool hat or something at Tavrosprite to be safe. He should just give Condy a big hug, solve two problems at once
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May 5, 2015 13:29
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Vriska's intentions towards Tavros and now Jake appear good, but her methods / thought-process is so messed up it only harms them. With Vriska and Tavros, we saw the whole path of their 'friendship'. First she was hard on him, but in a theoretically useful way. When that failed, she got angry and hurt him. She tried again and again, but Tavros never rose to her (admittedly too high) expectations, so she eventually gave up and pitied / coddled him. They (seemed) to become closer friends, so when was dying, she gave him one last Big Chance. And he failed, miserably. This seemed to have been the end of their friendship. They went their separate ways. When, later, on the meteor, Tavros finally stood up for himself (and it was less himself and more other people, which is seemingly what you need to kick him into gear), this got Vriska so pissed that she killed him.Then brought him back as a sprite as an 'I'm sorry'. But from her perspective, Tavros has done nothing but fail, continuously, for the entire time she's known him. So it's little wonder that she assumes Jake, who shares so much in common with Tavros, has the exact same problem. Vriska has grown a little and now realizes there's a place for 'weak' people in the world (something she was not prepared to admit back on the meteor), but she'd rather they just get out of her sight than pratfall in front of her.
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May 5, 2015 13:38
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On the other hand, she's probably just tolerating Tavros now because she has no feasible way to kill him again at the moment
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May 5, 2015 14:49
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CJacobs posted:On the other hand, she's probably just tolerating Tavros now because she has no feasible way to kill him again at the moment She was the one that brought him back in the first place.
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May 5, 2015 15:01
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Reading this update made me think about Joe Abercrombie's trilogy The First Law. A big theme of the books are that people don't usually change, and if they do, they often change right back into the person they were before. Be it circumstances, having an easier path laid out in front of you, or just a simple lack of will to change yourself for the better can all stunt your growth and keep you trapped in your old life no matter how much you may want to change. Right now, I feel that the same can be said of Vriska and Tavros, where they get slight moments of character development which makes you think that maybe, this time, they might be changing into better people, only to revert and slide right back into their old, miserable selves right after. The problem is that The First Law didn't repeat the process with the exact same characters over and over again until it loses all impact, and the backsliding of character development has now lost all impact and seems more like lazy rehashing of the same theme of people being unable to overcome their flaws that I'm just really annoyed and tired with both of these characters and just wish for them to either disappear or do something so that I'm not feeling I'm going through the exact same process and themes over and over again.
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May 5, 2015 15:01
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paradoxGentleman posted:She was the one that brought him back in the first place. Meaningless. There are only 3 things that are constant about Vriska: 1. Always, always willing to kill Tavros 2. Basically immune to learning life lessons 3. Could stand to lose a little weight
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May 5, 2015 15:02
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Also, Vriska is wrong.
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May 5, 2015 15:12
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The sprites at the beginning were kind of inconsistent, like Jaspers and Bec were in full sprite form for some reason prior to Rose/Jade actually entering their sessions whereas Dave and John got just the kernelsprite ones.
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May 5, 2015 15:15
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Nate RFB posted:The sprites at the beginning were kind of inconsistent, like Jaspers and Bec were in full sprite form for some reason prior to Rose/Jade actually entering their sessions whereas Dave and John got just the kernelsprite ones. I think jaspersprite has something to do with the double prototype before entry? Also looking up sprite crap on the wiki I totally forgot about the calsprite thing, which in retrospec gives that timeline even more reasons to be a failed one.
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May 5, 2015 15:52
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paradoxGentleman posted:She was the one that brought him back in the first place. Despite what she says, I can't help but view her bringing Tavros back as less of her wanting to say she's sorry and more of her wanting to be forgiven, though. Also why are people now saying that Tavros flying away from the pirate ship was a good character moment for him? I could've sworn virtually the whole thread was saying at the time that it meant nothing because it was still Tavros viewing contrary opinion as having self-confidence and that him flying off after Sollux already bounced meant nothing.
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May 5, 2015 15:55
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Bobulus posted:Vriska's intentions towards Tavros and now Jake appear good, but her methods / thought-process is so messed up it only harms them. This is why she latched onto John so hard when she found him. Here's this doof that's sort of like Tavros, same element, but a different class-but he has an actual spine and is capable of doing awesome incredible things. And then he teleports in out of nowhere and punches her in the snozz.
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May 5, 2015 16:04
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frozentreasure posted:Despite what she says, I can't help but view her bringing Tavros back as less of her wanting to say she's sorry and more of her wanting to be forgiven, though. Unless I am very grossly misremembering, the reason Tavros ditched the pirate crew wasn't because he was being contrary, but because he had had enough of Vriska's bullshit. And it was Sollux that followed Tavros, not the other way around.
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May 5, 2015 16:30
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Yeah, Vriska accuses him of being contrary and just doing it to annoy and betray her, but it's sour grapes. It also shows the fact that Vriska is, in her weird ugly way, as dependent on Tavros as she'd like him to be on her: she doesn't want him to break free of her orbit, not really, because belittling him and giving him orders makes her feel big. Vriska's a great character but she's a huge bully. The talk like she genuinely wants to improve Tavros' life and is trying to help him is just a pernicious smokescreen surrounding that - one she maybe believes herself, true, but not one that's any the more functional for it.
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May 5, 2015 16:37
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Oxyclean posted:I think jaspersprite has something to do with the double prototype before entry?
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May 5, 2015 16:39
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