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wateroverfire posted:Everything depends on the specifics.
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May 5, 2015 14:55
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wateroverfire posted:It depends on how much of a hike we're talking about. Think of your own life as a for instance - maybe there are some things you slack off on addressing because it'd be sort of inconvenient to do , but if not dealing with them became enough of a pain in the rear end you'd do it. It's the same principal. This sounds very arbitrary. Why does this happen at $15/hr, and not $11 or $7.25 or $5.15? And why do surveys of the effects of minimum wage show no significant disemployment effect?
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May 5, 2015 14:58
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wateroverfire posted:Everything depends on the specifics. Name one.
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May 5, 2015 15:03
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VitalSigns posted:This sounds very arbitrary. Why does this happen at $15/hr, and not $11 or $7.25 or $5.15? because you need to think ~rationally~ about it instead of looking at employment studies on min wage effects
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May 5, 2015 15:03
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His argument is dependent on raising it to $15 dollars across the country at the same time, not some more moderate version with waivers for certain states that is also more gradual. If Mississippi got a waiver for a $11 dollar minimum wage it would soak up most of his complaints. Ultimately, it would probably be better to allow it to increase gradually federally to $15 then give waivers to certain much lower income states on a provisional basis. In addition, you can manage costs to business with tax credits, which government can easily fund with its additional revenue. It is quite doable. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:17 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 15:14
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asdf32 posted:Nope. A key thing to realize is that just like any other cost increase, say oil or electricity, we understand the long term effect is that businesses will pass on costs to consumers, not just suddenly decide to live with lower profits. No, businesses do accept lower profit margins anytime that raising prices would be more than offset by a fall in sales. Your analysis would only be true if profits averaged out to zero over the long term.
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May 5, 2015 15:19
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Which is why almost all minimum wage hikes phase in gradually over time, so that businesses have time to adjust. Even the $15 minimum in Seattle isn't happening overnight. Isn't phasing in a min wage hike over several years basically a way to devalue it on the down low? paragon1 posted:Name one. Small restaurants in innumerable towns in the U.S., for one. A lot of them already skirt the law because if they didn't they'd be broke. VitalSigns posted:This sounds very arbitrary. Why does this happen at $15/hr, and not $11 or $7.25 or $5.15? From upthread. wateroverfire posted:What the balls. I thought I was reading GBS for a minute and it was glorious.
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May 5, 2015 15:19
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Ardennes posted:Ultimately, it would probably be better to allow it to increase gradually federally to $15 then give waivers to certain much lower income states on a provisional basis. In addition, you can manage costs to business with tax credits, which government can easily fund with its additional revenue. It is quite doable. LOL sure maybe if you're playing SimCity or something.
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May 5, 2015 15:20
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wateroverfire posted:
Don't most restaurants skirt minimum wage anyway by having most of their staff making up wage revenue in tips?
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May 5, 2015 15:21
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VitalSigns posted:No, businesses do accept lower profit margins anytime that raising prices would be more than offset by a fall in sales. Anyway in this case a business could increase prices because demand is going to be higher. It may cause some moderate price inflation in that sense, but it isn't really an issue for the US. wateroverfire posted:LOL sure maybe if you're playing SimCity or something. States already set their own minimum wages, and the federal government has the ability to selective set a floor. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:25 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 15:21
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Minimum wage needs to be tied to productivity rates, and it should not ever be implemented in some staggered fashion - it must be immediate and universal. An increase to $12 by 2020 or whatever middle ground bullshit politicians are peddling is too little, too late. Accounting for the inevitable inflation and productivity increases, $12 an hour in 2020 would basically be the same thing as $7.25 an hour in 2010. Even if it were $15/hr by 2020, it would still not be enough - minimum wage right now should be at least $20. The way the minimum wage is raised right now - huge conflicts over specific dollar amounts - is unsustainable and counterproductive to a laborer's right to a living wage. It must be tied as a function to productivity, as that is naturally the outcome of a worker's labor. There is nothing unique or special about the US economy that differs from any other OECD country that makes a consistent, living minimum wage nonviable.
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May 5, 2015 15:25
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wateroverfire posted:From upthread. This is just a lot of unsupported conjecture. The minimum wage has been $11/hr before in real dollars, and worker productivity has almost doubled since then. There's no reason to think that businesses can't afford to pay them a living wage.
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May 5, 2015 15:26
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Gravel Gravy posted:Don't most restaurants skirt minimum wage anyway by having most of their staff making up wage revenue in tips? The legal arrangement in some states is that if a server's tips + wage don't meet the minimum the restaurant has to top them up to the minimum. In others (California, I think, maybe more?) the restaurant has to pay minimum wage and the server's tips are on top of that. Ardennes posted:This is a bad post. I mean to say that you tend to treat thorny economic problems very blithely and just assuming the government can do whatever is probably not very accurate outside a simulation where it can explicitly do whatever.
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May 5, 2015 15:26
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Productivity is a very nebulous definition that seems to come out to "divide the total amount of widgets/revenue by the number of workers".
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May 5, 2015 15:28
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wateroverfire posted:Small restaurants in innumerable towns in the U.S., for one. A lot of them already skirt the law because if they didn't they'd be broke. If it's true that small restaurants couldn't sustain a minimum wage increase, then one of two things is probably true: 1) People working at small restaurants already make a living wage based on tips, in which case it's fine to continue to make an exception for direct wages in these cases. 2) People working at small restaurants don't make up the difference based on tips, and these businesses probably shouldn't exist in the first place. The problem with saying that small businesses will become non-viable with an increased minimum wage is that no business should be economically viable if it's unable to provide full time employees with a living wage. Providing jobs is completely meaningless if those jobs only serve to keep the people who work them in poverty.
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May 5, 2015 15:28
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wateroverfire posted:The legal arrangement in some states is that if a server's tips + wage don't meet the minimum the restaurant has to top them up to the minimum. In others (California, I think, maybe more?) the restaurant has to pay minimum wage and the server's tips are on top of that. So the restaurants will still benefit from the labor unless the restaurant is dead anyway, in which case most managers tend to cut back the workforce/fit that into the schedule anyway to maximize profit/productivity.
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May 5, 2015 15:29
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wateroverfire posted:The legal arrangement in some states is that if a server's tips + wage don't meet the minimum the restaurant has to top them up to the minimum. In reality though, restaurants will pressure workers to accept less than minimum wage and not ask for top-ups if they want to keep their jobs.
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May 5, 2015 15:29
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Chalets the Baka posted:Minimum wage needs to be tied to productivity rates, and it should not ever be implemented in some staggered fashion - it must be immediate and universal. An increase to $12 by 2020 or whatever middle ground bullshit politicians are peddling is too little, too late. Accounting for the inevitable inflation and productivity increases, $12 an hour in 2020 would basically be the same thing as $7.25 an hour in 2010. Even if it were $15/hr by 2020, it would still not be enough - minimum wage right now should be at least $20. The way the minimum wage is raised right now - huge conflicts over specific dollar amounts - is unsustainable and counterproductive to a laborer's right to a living wage. It must be tied as a function to productivity, as that is naturally the outcome of a worker's labor. There is nothing unique or special about the US economy that differs from any other OECD country that makes a consistent, living minimum wage nonviable. The one thing you could argue is that the US does have more regional distinctions than many OECD countries, and that needs to be addressed.
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May 5, 2015 15:31
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I don't understand this "but how will restaurants afford to pay minimum wage"? That's the easiest one of all: loving charge more for food. Under the current theory, patrons are already willing to pay more since they voluntarily tack 15% onto the bill, so this should be zero problem. Unless servers aren't making minimum wage in tips, in which case the tipping system is a failure and should be ended.
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May 5, 2015 15:33
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Gravel Gravy posted:Don't most restaurants skirt minimum wage anyway by having most of their staff making up wage revenue in tips? Restaurants essentially don't have a minimum wage, correct
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May 5, 2015 15:34
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VitalSigns posted:This is just a lot of unsupported conjecture. There are lots of reasons to think that. Productivity in some things has gone up but real prices have been competed down. A company like Walmart posts a net margin of 3-4% - that's profit after paying out employees and taxes, but not the owners. That's still billions of dollars, sure, but not a lot compared to the size of the operation.
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May 5, 2015 15:36
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paragon1 posted:Name one. So wait, raise your hand if your ideology includes the idea that zero businesses are on the edge of viability in the economy.
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May 5, 2015 15:37
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Chalets the Baka posted:Minimum wage needs to be tied to productivity rates, and it should not ever be implemented in some staggered fashion - it must be immediate and universal. An increase to $12 by 2020 or whatever middle ground bullshit politicians are peddling is too little, too late. Accounting for the inevitable inflation and productivity increases, $12 an hour in 2020 would basically be the same thing as $7.25 an hour in 2010. Even if it were $15/hr by 2020, it would still not be enough - minimum wage right now should be at least $20. The way the minimum wage is raised right now - huge conflicts over specific dollar amounts - is unsustainable and counterproductive to a laborer's right to a living wage. It must be tied as a function to productivity, as that is naturally the outcome of a worker's labor. There is nothing unique or special about the US economy that differs from any other OECD country that makes a consistent, living minimum wage nonviable. Productivity tells us whether the economy as a whole can support a living wage but doesn't tell us much about what labor prices should be in any specific instance. As a reminder: "value" and price in a market are not the same thing. If something is plentiful in relation to its demand it's expected to be cheap regardless of how valuable it really is. Low skill wages are low for a bunch of obvious reasons and productivity doesn't change that.
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May 5, 2015 15:40
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asdf32 posted:So wait, raise your hand if your ideology includes the idea that zero businesses are on the edge of viability in the economy. Oh poo poo, well let's repeal all labor laws then, think how viable businesses will be when they don't have to have fire exits.
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May 5, 2015 15:40
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Don't encourage him
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May 5, 2015 15:41
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asdf32 posted:So wait, raise your hand if your ideology includes the idea that zero businesses are on the edge of viability in the economy. Obviously some businesses will be, but as others have pointed out above, if you can give examples of what kind of business fits into this cohort then people arguing with you can explain why that group's business model would/should fail, why their disappearance is balanced against increased consumer expenditures and the other positives of a minimum wage hike, etc. It isn't ridiculous for a poster to ask for some examples that fit your model.
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May 5, 2015 15:42
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VitalSigns posted:Oh poo poo, well let's repeal all labor laws then, think how viable businesses will be when they don't have to have fire exits. Some probably would be but who cares. I could support either minimum wage or fire exits while actually understanding their consequences. The answer isn't "none".
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May 5, 2015 15:43
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Paradoxish posted:The problem with saying that small businesses will become non-viable with an increased minimum wage is that no business should be economically viable if it's unable to provide full time employees with a living wage. Providing jobs is completely meaningless if those jobs only serve to keep the people who work them in poverty. I respect that you feel that way but I disagree with your value judgement. Not every economic enterprise can give its employees a middle class lifestyle and it's not the business's responsibility to do that in the first place. VitalSigns posted:In reality though, restaurants will pressure workers to accept less than minimum wage and not ask for top-ups if they want to keep their jobs. A thing that happens, for sure. VitalSigns posted:I don't understand this "but how will restaurants afford to pay minimum wage"? That's the easiest one of all: loving charge more for food. Under the current theory, patrons are already willing to pay more since they voluntarily tack 15% onto the bill, so this should be zero problem. Unless servers aren't making minimum wage in tips, in which case the tipping system is a failure and should be ended. The take highly depends on where you work and what shifts you have. Tipping is amazing for some servers and pretty lovely for others.
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May 5, 2015 15:43
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asdf32 posted:Productivity tells us whether the economy as a whole can support a living wage but doesn't tell us much about what labor prices should be in any specific instance. I never said that productivity levels themselves infer exact dollar amounts. What they do tell us is that wages have been going down even as productivity and profits go up. And since productivity almost always increases linearly with time, so too should wages.
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May 5, 2015 15:45
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asdf32 posted:Some probably would be but who cares. Exactly. The businesses that starve their workers have no reason to exist.
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May 5, 2015 15:47
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Chalets the Baka posted:I never said that productivity levels themselves infer exact dollar amounts. What they do tell us is that wages have been going down even as productivity and profits go up. And since productivity almost always increases linearly with time, so too should wages. Setting a minimum wage is setting an exact dollar amount.
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May 5, 2015 15:48
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VitalSigns posted:Exactly. The businesses that starve their workers have no reason to exist. Unironicly would consider buying an apartment building to house, and contracting food and basic services for, my employees, if I could use that as a way to pay them less. Ah, well. A man can dream.
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May 5, 2015 15:50
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wateroverfire posted:Unironicly would consider buying an apartment building to house, and contracting food and basic services for, my employees, if I could use that as a way to pay them less. Yeah slavery was a pretty good business model.
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May 5, 2015 15:51
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wateroverfire posted:Unironicly would consider buying an apartment building to house, and contracting food and basic services for, my employees, if I could use that as a way to pay them less. Also would insist they call me "daddy" in all informal interactions. But not in meetings, because that would be weird.
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May 5, 2015 15:51
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VitalSigns posted:Exactly. The businesses that starve their workers have no reason to exist. You insufferable idiot. Businesses are not supposed to be responsible for life and death. They're supposed to produce shoes and pencils. When they happen to provide a good loving for people great! When they don't, it's everyone's responsibility to deal with it. Only a libertarian sets life and death equal to market prices.
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May 5, 2015 15:51
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Gravel Gravy posted:Yeah slavery was a pretty good business model. The difference is I wouldn't send bounty hunters after them when they left or hobble them when they were brought back in chains. Probably.
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May 5, 2015 15:52
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asdf32 posted:You insufferable idiot. Businesses are not supposed to be responsible for life and death. They're supposed to produce shoes and pencils. When they happen to provide a good loving for people great! When they don't, it's everyone's responsibility to deal with it. You just reversed your position from like two posts ago, where you agreed we shouldn't give a poo poo whether lovely businesses fail in the face of laws that prevent death.
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May 5, 2015 15:54
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asdf32 posted:You insufferable idiot. Businesses are not supposed to be responsible for life and death. They're supposed to produce shoes and pencils. When they happen to provide a good loving for people great! When they don't, it's everyone's responsibility to deal with it. I unno. Seems counter-productive to have a worker working full-time equivalent and yet still have to be a ward of the state.
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May 5, 2015 15:55
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asdf32 posted:Setting a minimum wage is setting an exact dollar amount. Read between the lines, human being. There are other metrics by which to determine an exact dollar amount, tying its increase as a function of productivity only determines the rate. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 5, 2015 15:56
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Who do people think work at McDonalds during school hours.
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May 5, 2015 15:57
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