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wateroverfire posted:Who is the bigger fool - the fool who posts, or the fool who posts about it? In fact, it doesn't. Act like you've been there before, you sound like a real rube.
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May 6, 2015 16:07
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Sinnlos posted:I think that you are ignoring the necessity of consumption to fuel growth. You can invest all you want but you need a way to generate returns. Demand and investment are the chicken and egg cycle that constitutes the economy, for sure. Which comes first is not a straight forward question to answer. edit: To be more serious for a moment. To get economic growth the demand requirement is something less strict than "People individually have more purchasing power", which implies real wages have increased, and is instead something like "People in aggregate have more purchasing power", which can be a combination of more people, real wage changes, production technology that allows us to make more stuff with the same inputs, etc. Teasing out what is going on is not at all straight forward. Investment creates demand through creating real wealth and jobs that pay money. Demand encourages investment under the right conditions. A full discussion is better suited to a different forum and people much smarter and more invested in being bird watchers rather than birds than I am. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 16:24 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 16:12
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menino posted:In fact, it doesn't. Act like you've been there before, you sound like a real rube. I'm not sure what you're driving at. Surely you're not cheerleading in something awful subforum debate and discussion.
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May 6, 2015 16:14
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wateroverfire posted:In the like past 5 minutes of posting I made maybe $200. it is not a good idea to shitpost while donating plasma, put the phone down for five minutes du de
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May 6, 2015 16:17
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Being rich is immoral and we should really fix it
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May 6, 2015 16:18
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wateroverfire posted:Ummm. That post wasn't edited are you sure you're not thinking of someone else? Man, you are right, the change in tone was too good to be true. Sorry for mixing up two proximate posts, I blame it on the inferior quality of my poor person's brain. I only made a million dollars in the last 34 secs, but I am practically impoverished here in the big city.
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May 6, 2015 16:21
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wateroverfire posted:In the like past 5 minutes of posting I made maybe $200. You shall be the first to be placed against the wall.
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May 6, 2015 16:30
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I dunno why ya'll engage with wateroverfire and asdf32 who have been shown time and time again to be idiots wrt economics.
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May 6, 2015 16:38
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I dunno why ya'll engage with wateroverfire and asdf32 who have been shown time and time again to be idiots wrt economics. 
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May 6, 2015 16:42
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Gravel Gravy posted:You shall be the first to be placed against the wall. Or I'll finance the revolution and have my pick of the wreckage when it all ends in tears. 
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May 6, 2015 16:44
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archangelwar posted:Man, you are right, the change in tone was too good to be true. Sorry for mixing up two proximate posts, I blame it on the inferior quality of my poor person's brain. I only made a million dollars in the last 34 secs, but I am practically impoverished here in the big city. Bro you're poor as poo poo I made a million dollars in the past 8 seconds and let me tell you...
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May 6, 2015 16:44
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Shitposting rabidly is one thing but framing yourself as some freewheeling rich guy just ups the mom's basement quotia to toxic levels.
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May 6, 2015 16:45
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wateroverfire posted:Or I'll finance the revolution and have my pick of the wreckage when it all ends in tears. But enough about your date nights.
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May 6, 2015 16:45
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wateroverfire posted:Or I'll finance the revolution and have my pick of the wreckage when it all ends in tears. Nah I'm going to snitch on you to the Revolutionary Tribunals for a better flat and a larger beet ration.
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May 6, 2015 16:49
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wateroverfire posted:Demand and investment are the chicken and egg cycle that constitutes the economy, for sure. Which comes first is not a straight forward question to answer. I appreciate your candor in your edit. The issue for me is marginal propensity to spend combined with a decrease in real wages for 99% of the US population vs. real gains for the highest 1% of earners. The result is a real reduction in ability to consume, as well as less ability to move upwards towards the aspiring capitalist class. This is alleviated through the extension of credit, but this isn't a good long-term solution, as your debtors have less real dollars to pay creditors back with over time. The simplest solution, at least in the case of the US, is wealth redistribution through a combined increase in taxation on personal capital gains as well as an increase in minimum wage. Please keep in mind that raising the minimum wage does not lead to discernable increases in inflation, so the argument that the the real minimum wage wouldn't rise doesn't hold water.
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May 6, 2015 16:54
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I made $80,000 last month writing this "level of content", you dumb mother fucker. Who the gently caress are you? You're nothing, that's right, so have fun being poor up there on your moral high-horse while I sit back and collect cash money like a fuckin drug dealer. Thankfully "real" writers like you are too loving stupid to seize an opportunity.
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May 6, 2015 16:54
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People who think the way to economic utopia is to confiscate the estate of every rich person in America and nationalize every industry are insane. You have to be insane to look at every failed attempt at complete nationalization in history and think "this time, it will be different." Yet somehow wateroverfire comes off as more detestable, even though I'd rather remain in the current lovely status que than embrace communism. Huh.
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May 6, 2015 17:04
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Why shouldn't we nationalize industries? We can start with health care: every developed country that nationalized their health care industries has cheaper, better results. The oil industries too, not only do countries that do this have an easier time affording a safety net, but our subsidies and guarantees have taken most of the risk out anyway, destroying the only justification for the owners' huge profits.
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May 6, 2015 17:07
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Healthcare is about the only industry I would support nationalizing, because it's obvious at this point that health is not something that should be commodified. Energy I'd probably be ok with, too. Normal consumer goods and services, though? Nah. Capitalism provides way too much of a benefit there in terms of innovation, productivity, and incentive.
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May 6, 2015 17:13
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capitalism leading to innovation is one of those relations that are, uh, somewhat more complicated than they appear
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May 6, 2015 17:16
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it's not wrong as such, but it's very dependent on the type of innovation you class as "innovation" and the forms in which it's popularised
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May 6, 2015 17:17
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Ascribing "innovation" to a system of economics without acknowledging the myriad other factors that drive innovation (necessity, for one) seems incredibly shortsighted.
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May 6, 2015 17:20
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VitalSigns posted:Nah I'm going to snitch on you to the Revolutionary Tribunals for a better flat and a larger beet ration. As I was sitting at an outdoor cafe this afternoon enjoying the view and eating a lunch that cost more than a Chilean worker making minimum wage takes home in a day I read your post and thought to myself "this guy has what it takes to be an executive".
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May 6, 2015 17:28
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VitalSigns posted:The oil industries too, not only do countries that do this have an easier time affording a safety net, but our subsidies and guarantees have taken most of the risk out anyway, destroying the only justification for the owners' huge profits. Venezuela.txt
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May 6, 2015 17:31
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wateroverfire posted:As I was sitting at an outdoor cafe this afternoon enjoying the view and eating a lunch that cost more than a Chilean worker making minimum wage takes home in a day I read your post and thought to myself "this guy has what it takes to be an executive". Really, you'd go to a cafe like that and leave only after half an hour? Of course you could say that you are in the mother country but as we all know there aren't any true capitalists in Europe.
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May 6, 2015 17:32
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Sinnlos posted:I appreciate your candor in your edit. The issue for me is marginal propensity to spend combined with a decrease in real wages for 99% of the US population vs. real gains for the highest 1% of earners. The result is a real reduction in ability to consume, as well as less ability to move upwards towards the aspiring capitalist class. This is alleviated through the extension of credit, but this isn't a good long-term solution, as your debtors have less real dollars to pay creditors back with over time. The simplest solution, at least in the case of the US, is wealth redistribution through a combined increase in taxation on personal capital gains as well as an increase in minimum wage. Please keep in mind that raising the minimum wage does not lead to discernable increases in inflation, so the argument that the the real minimum wage wouldn't rise doesn't hold water. I think there's a lot that would benefit from unpacking here. First, if you look at the figures from BLS the real income picture is a lot more complicated than 99% vs 1%, or capitalist vs. labor, or etc. Many classes of earners are doing better, with some doing better than others. This is the case by income bracket and by geography. The "problem" is a lot less straight forward than it would seem. Second, redistibution is not anything at all like a simple solution. Just as a for instance, if you raise capital gains taxes you decrease the return on the underlying assets and their prices will fall - both destroying wealth and cutting into your projected tax take. A lot of interventions are like that. Third, small increases in the minimum wage probably don't lead to discernable increases in inflation. But net net they also don't provide much benefit. Large increases are things that haven't happened in the U.S. and existing studies can't be extended to. But I would invite you to consider the disruptive effects of raising the min wage to, say, $15, which is close to the national median and would directly impact something like 45% of workers, as a thought experiment.
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May 6, 2015 17:41
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Gravel Gravy posted:Really, you'd go to a cafe like that and leave only after half an hour? I did some phone posting but yeah, long lunches are not really my thing.
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May 6, 2015 17:43
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wateroverfire posted:I did some phone posting but yeah, long lunches are not really my thing. Enjoying the view and phone posting while not taking a long lunch? Something doesn't add up here, gents.
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May 6, 2015 17:44
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Gravel Gravy posted:Enjoying the view and phone posting while not taking a long lunch? Strange but true.
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May 6, 2015 17:46
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Sinnlos posted:Wateroverfire, what mechanism generates growth in an economy? Peaceful transitions of political order.
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May 6, 2015 17:47
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Rising bread prices and imprisoning university students.
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May 6, 2015 17:48
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V. Illych L. posted:capitalism leading to innovation is one of those relations that are, uh, somewhat more complicated than they appear Capitalism is great at providing choice, which is something people value a lot. If people could embrace a world where most of their decisions were made for them by experts yeah we could maybe be a lot more efficient about things and probably deliver a standard of living that slowly but steadily crept up from that baseline every year. Alternately that could be a world where everyone gets only 50g of cricket protein per day because experts agree that's the average daily minimum metabolic requirement to sustain life but perhapse the juice is worth the squeeze.
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May 6, 2015 17:52
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i have no idea what that post has to do with anything
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May 6, 2015 17:56
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V. Illych L. posted:i have no idea what that post has to do with anything We're having a conversation so I guess take the ball and run with it?
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May 6, 2015 17:57
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like, reality, the post it quotes, anything it's like a very concise refutation of the intentional theory of language
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May 6, 2015 17:57
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V. Illych L. posted:like, reality, the post it quotes, anything Are you a college sophmore? You are, aren't you.
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May 6, 2015 17:58
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wateroverfire posted:Capitalism is great at providing choice, which is something people value a lot. look at all that choice poor people have.
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May 6, 2015 17:59
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don't like your McJob? you're free...to die in a gutter 
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May 6, 2015 17:59
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euphronius posted:look at all that choice poor people have. Which is, actually, quite a lot when you consider it.
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May 6, 2015 18:00
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euphronius posted:look at all that choice poor people have. Spam and Low-sodium spam.
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May 6, 2015 18:00
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