|
Fsmhunk posted:Okay, so basically they never knew what they were doing, has D&D ever been handled by a competent business? There's also that one time Insider was making millions, but I can't seem to remember what edition that happened under.
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 18:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 21:04 |
|
|
moths posted:There's also that one time Insider was making millions, but I can't seem to remember what edition that happened under.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:05
|
|
|
This is different from the handling of the rest of the brand in what capacity?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
grassy gnoll posted:This is different from the handling of the rest of the brand in what capacity?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:16
|
|
|
The least competent decision regarding Insider was to shut it down. No, we don't want a guaranteed, regular steam of revenue. It was a flawed product, sure, but it was selling and making them grown-up big boy money from what was presumably a microscopic overhead.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:19
|
|
|
I remember how they could never decide what kind of format they wanted the Dungeon and Dragon magazines to be in, switching what was in each back and forth at least three times.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:24
|
|
|
I thought Insider was another "shoot ourselves in the foot" thing, since having a subscription meant you didn't have to buy new character-based books.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:25
|
|
|
MadScientistWorking posted:Insider wasn't handled competently though. It was making money but you are deluding yourself to think it was handled competently. Would it be fair to say it was the best official product of it's type? Honest question, I haven't seen many other Insider style offers from other companies. Evil Mastermind posted:I thought Insider was another "shoot ourselves in the foot" thing, since having a subscription meant you didn't have to buy new character-based books. They got more profit out of me off Insider then they ever would have selling me those books.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:I thought Insider was another "shoot ourselves in the foot" thing, since having a subscription meant you didn't have to buy new character-based books. which would have been the perfect hint to change their business models but 
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:34
|
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:I thought Insider was another "shoot ourselves in the foot" thing, since having a subscription meant you didn't have to buy new character-based books. Doubly so because the money from Insider was siloed away from the publishing division, so it's not like it was even allowed to shore up the money it was taking away from the actual books.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:36
|
|
|
Thing is, having Insider didn't stop my group and I buying books. At all. E: Insider is great for building characters and referencing rules in forum arguments. Books are great for reading on the toilet and referencing rules in games. Hopefully not the SAME books, but you know... thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 19:46 on May 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
moths posted:The least competent decision regarding Insider was to shut it down. No, we don't want a guaranteed, regular steam of revenue.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
Such as being written in Silverlight.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:49
|
|
|
MadScientistWorking posted:No. The product under delivered on what was promised and had a bunch of issues that in a competently run project wouldn't have hindered it at all. And it still made more money per year than most RPG products make in their entire lives so, y'know, if only we could all fail that much.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:51
|
|
|
moths posted:The least competent decision regarding Insider was to shut it down. No, we don't want a guaranteed, regular steam of revenue. I'm pretty sure Insider's still running though?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
And part of the reason Insider didn't fulfill its promises was that murder-suicide involving one of the developers and the collapse of "Gleemax", although you could definitely pin the latter on poor management.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:04
|
|
|
Lemniscate Blue posted:And part of the reason Insider didn't fulfill its promises was that murder-suicide involving one of the developers and the collapse of "Gleemax", although you could definitely pin the latter on poor management. Kai Tave posted:And it still made more money per year than most RPG products make in their entire lives so, y'know, if only we could all fail that much.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
Dragon moved to some iOS thing, and I thought Insider died months ago. I could be wrong, though.MadScientistWorking posted:No. The product under delivered on what was promised and had a bunch of issues that in a competently run project wouldn't have hindered it at all. And yet people still threw money at it hand over fist. I appreciate what you're saying: it was poorly managed and deeply flawed. But you're literally arguing with its success. In better hands it could have been profitable AND a great product, but in the end they just had to settle for it being trucks full of cash. Oh well.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
Misandu posted:Would it be fair to say it was the best official product of it's type? Do you count a Paizo subscription?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Thing is, having Insider didn't stop my group and I buying books. At all. E: Insider is great for building characters and referencing rules in forum arguments. Books are great for reading on the toilet and referencing rules in games. I'm not saying it killed the books or that it wasn't a very consumer-friendly product. But saying it didn't damage book sales seems like a really rose-colored assertion.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
MadScientistWorking posted:Yeah but that isn't saying much given how pathetic the industry is. Reasonable estimates are that it is/was pulling in like five million dollars a year, which is real person good money, not "good money in the context of elfgames only." Five million may not be "good by Hasbro's standards" money but I highly doubt that if WotC had poured all the heart and soul into making Insider the most phenomenal digital D&D toolset it could possibly be that it would have cleared that threshold, so moths is right.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
MadScientistWorking posted:The problem with that argument and even you'll see it crop up in 5E is that if your process is that fragile where one person can shut the whole thing down you aren't managing it properly. Yeah, the number of 5e products delayed or cancelled by someone's jury duty is hilarious, but when you're working with such a small crew it's less avoidable than when you have lots of people working on a project that can cover each other. Ultimately that leads right back to management decisions and budget from WotC though.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Lemniscate Blue posted:Yeah, the number of 5e products delayed or cancelled by someone's jury duty is hilarious, but when you're working with such a small crew it's less avoidable than when you have lots of people working on a project that can cover each other. Could you explain that a bit further? I haven't heard this bit of news, whose jury duty did what?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:21
|
|
|
occamsnailfile posted:Could you explain that a bit further? I haven't heard this bit of news, whose jury duty did what? That's the excuse for why there are no conversion guides for 5e - the person at WotC who is making them got called for jury duty in January. At the time they expected a month-long trial so they delayed the expected release, but the poor bastard is still in the trial, so who loving knows? http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?433703-Mike-Mearls-five-tweets-on-the-jury-duty-hold-up http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?446295-Jury-duty-still-ongoing EDIT: Of course, they were supposed to be released in the fall, but apparently the DMG needing massive reworking delayed them in the first place. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 20:32 on May 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:29
|
|
|
I love reading this thread but I always feel like I need some TG fuckup wiki to keep track of everybody and how they're a fuckup.
Pope Guilty fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 6, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:34
|
|
|
Has anyone ever posted a detailed breakdown of the inputs that would go into a (standalone, rules & setting complete) RPG book in terms of labor hours for each task, price out for (publishing, not hobby gaming) standard rates for those tasks - just to establish a baseline for how utterly and completely hosed the economics of the industry are? My complete asspull, off-the-cuff guess would be that you'd look at a book which would cost in the $125-$150 range for break even, given an (hobby game, not publish) industry average sales rate. And that's just talking about an eBook release, not even getting into the economics of dead trees.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:I love reading this thread but I always feel like I need some TG fuckup wiki to keep track of everybody and how they're a fuckup. everything is completely hosed up!
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:01
|
|
|
kaynorr posted:Has anyone ever posted a detailed breakdown of the inputs that would go into a (standalone, rules & setting complete) RPG book in terms of labor hours for each task, price out for (publishing, not hobby gaming) standard rates for those tasks - just to establish a baseline for how utterly and completely hosed the economics of the industry are? My complete asspull, off-the-cuff guess would be that you'd look at a book which would cost in the $125-$150 range for break even, given an (hobby game, not publish) industry average sales rate. If everyone(writers, artists, editors etc) was paid reasonable rates for other entertainment industries, RPG books would probably cost at least twice what they do now. If I had to pay myself my regular graphic design rate for all of the work I put into my book it would have easily doubled the production cost, and that's not counting all the writing time my partner and I spent on it. The RPG industry is held together by naivete, shady business practices and passionate people working for free.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:30
|
|
|
Also Kickstarters and Patreons nowadays. Although I don't think I've heard of a Patreon bombing out like the various kickstarters have.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:33
|
|
|
It's much more difficult for Patreon to bomb out, partly because it's an ongoing arrangement, and partly because unless you're specifically pledging things based on your numbers, you don't actually have to deliver anything at all extra - patreon is basically a way for people to pay you a salary for doing what they like you doing, which kickstarter specifically isn't. They're almost diametrically opposed in their goal and business model.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:44
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:It's much more difficult for Patreon to bomb out, partly because it's an ongoing arrangement, and partly because unless you're specifically pledging things based on your numbers, you don't actually have to deliver anything at all extra - patreon is basically a way for people to pay you a salary for doing what they like you doing, which kickstarter specifically isn't. They're almost diametrically opposed in their goal and business model. Aaron Diaz promised that if his Patreon hit 4K/month he'd put out a comic every two weeks, but that turned out to be every bit the lie that every other time he's claimed he was going to start regularly putting out comics was.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:46
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:I love reading this thread but I always feel like I need some TG fuckup wiki to keep track of everybody and how they're a fuckup. Yeah, I feel your pain. Every time goons start gnashing their teeth at someone, I need to look like a chump and ask why do we hate this particular guy.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:47
|
|
|
Bucnasti posted:The RPG industry is held together by naivete, shady business practices and passionate people working for free. $40! For a small print run 240 page full-sized color hardback! It's outrageous!
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
paradoxGentleman posted:Yeah, I feel your pain. Every time goons start gnashing their teeth at someone, I need to look like a chump and ask why do we hate this particular guy. It's us. We're the grogs. Don't listen to us.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 22:31
|
|
|
Bucnasti posted:If everyone(writers, artists, editors etc) was paid reasonable rates for other entertainment industries, RPG books would probably cost at least twice what they do now. If I had to pay myself my regular graphic design rate for all of the work I put into my book it would have easily doubled the production cost, and that's not counting all the writing time my partner and I spent on it.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 22:52
|
|
|
Dumnbunny posted:I'm often bemused by the claim that RPG books cost too much. If anything, they cost too little. I think the "costs too much" complaint is mostly coming from people new to the hobby, comparing RPG books to other hardcovers of similar pagecount. A novel is the written work of one or two people, with a handful of editors and publishing staff, and usually with only a couple of art pieces (front cover, back cover, maybe an title page illustration or two). RPG books have a much higher number of people (and thus work) involved in their creation. I know a couple people that never thought about it that way until it was explained to them.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 22:56
|
|
|
jivjov posted:I think the "costs too much" complaint is mostly coming from people new to the hobby, comparing RPG books to other hardcovers of similar pagecount. A novel is the written work of one or two people, with a handful of editors and publishing staff, and usually with only a couple of art pieces (front cover, back cover, maybe an title page illustration or two). RPG books have a much higher number of people (and thus work) involved in their creation. I know a couple people that never thought about it that way until it was explained to them. It's not really even that so much as a matter of scale. A novel is probably expected to sell hundreds of thousands of copies, truly successful ones selling millions. A small press RPG is considered a smash success if it reaches four digits.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 23:21
|
|
|
jivjov posted:I think the "costs too much" complaint is mostly coming from people new to the hobby, comparing RPG books to other hardcovers of similar pagecount. A novel is the written work of one or two people, with a handful of editors and publishing staff, and usually with only a couple of art pieces (front cover, back cover, maybe an title page illustration or two). RPG books have a much higher number of people (and thus work) involved in their creation. I know a couple people that never thought about it that way until it was explained to them. This thought occurred to me as well - the best point of comparison is more like a textbook or technical manual, in terms of the kind of effort and expertise it takes to put one out. $50 is expensive for a novel but downright cheap for a textbook.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 23:31
|
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:I thought Insider was another "shoot ourselves in the foot" thing, since having a subscription meant you didn't have to buy new character-based books. $15 /month x 12 months = $180/year 1 $40 book w/character options for the class I like because I'm a cheapskate and no way will I buy everything Wizards puts out = $40/year 4 $40 books because that's all Wizards puts out for players in a good year = $160/year 180 > 40 180 > 160  (And that's being super generous and pretending that WotC gets all the money from print sales directly, rather than, like, ~1/3rd due to the mark up from booksellers, Amazon discounts, etc.)
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 23:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 21:04 |
|
|
Huh. Guess I should have done the math.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2015 23:50
|
|