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Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



HEY GAL posted:

i should Let's Read the 1632 series

Please do.

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AceRimmer
Mar 18, 2009

Chamale posted:

Please do.
:agreed:

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

Murgos posted:

By the time rifles were common in the ACW though, well, I know a guy who can hit a a 20" target at 400 yards with his antique.

Well, the Austrian Giradoni air rifle, which predated Napoleonic wars, was pretty accurate up to like 200 yards, supposedly, in addition to having a tube magazine, though it was more of a curiosity than a viable mass-produced weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juOQ9Ij3G1c

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

V. Illych L. posted:

i suspect that the authors may have somewhat mischaracterised gustav adolf

also, Denmark's history after the medieval period is generally one lost war after another, i think they won, like, one war during that entire period and that's because the swedes were busy getting wailed on by Peter the Great

Pretty sure they won against the Hanseatic League and against the Duke of Mecklenburg when the Duke decided that he was actually the rightful King of Denmark (the King of Denmark politely disagreed).

xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.


:agreed:

I'm in just for hegel complaining constantly and telling glorious stories about how it really was.

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012
I'd read it.

Klaus88
Jan 23, 2011

Violence has its own economy, therefore be thoughtful and precise in your investment

steinrokkan posted:

Well, the Austrian Giradoni air rifle, which predated Napoleonic wars, was pretty accurate up to like 200 yards, supposedly, in addition to having a tube magazine, though it was more of a curiosity than a viable mass-produced weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juOQ9Ij3G1c


So that's what inspired the air rifles in the powder mage trilogy. :v:

HEY GAL posted:

i should Let's Read the 1632 series

:agreed:

TheFluff
Dec 13, 2006

FRIENDS, LISTEN TO ME
I AM A SEAGULL
OF WEALTH AND TASTE


Swim trunks and the black beret of the armored forces is a totally appropriate uniform getup when testing out deep fording equipment. I wanna go take a swim now...

Also, pop quiz: what is going on here?




More pics: http://imgur.com/a/p8sYy

TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:34 on May 6, 2015

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

Huh, that was quite a good read. I like that the shakos had pockets for toiletries and tobacco.

Speaking of hats, is there a gradual transition from troops wearing metal helmets to troops wearing fabric hats between, say, 1500 and 1700? If so, would this be related to the increasing role of firearms?

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

that site is run by an insane sperg and I love him for it

it's the most detailed resource online about the napoleonic wars by far, although it has some weird questionable spots

vains
May 26, 2004

A Big Ten institution offering distance education catering to adult learners

Murgos posted:

e: VVVV That's not how machine guns work irl. It's how they work in movies and video games but not the real world. Machine guns, with their long, heavy barrels, sturdy bases and large caliber, heavy rounds are extremely precise and accurate out to very long ranges. And they fire quickly.

The way he described machine guns is fairly accurate.

The sights aren't set up to make extremely accurate shots and the longer that a burst is fired the wider the beaten zone becomes. Beyond that, the method in which they are often employed precludes 'sniping' dudes. Machine guns in coax mounts(tanks/afvs/etc) are able to more precisely employed because they have a 30-80ton base and the advantage of optics(often computer assisted).

Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really

Machine guns are pretty decently accurate.

However they are generally *not* used as precision weapons but rather as suppression weapons. That doesn't mean that they aren't, esp. when you're talking about HMGs, but you generally don't try to snipe people with them.

And suppression doesn't mean that you're not also trying to kill the guys you're shooting at. They're pretty good at that if people are standing up, but when they're not making themselves easy target the MG is mainly keeping them pinned.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010
Ok dude. I'll just go with you instead of my personal experience carring an M240 (effective on point targets to 800m) across Africa and manning M2s (effective range of 1850 meters, about where the eye can no longer discern individual objects).

Some poorly trained people may use them as you said but that's not actually how they are employed or intended to be used by anyone competent. The killing power of a modern infantry squad is its integral MGs, (well it's radios really) not small arms.

Saint Celestine
Dec 17, 2008

Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.

- Saint Sabbat, Lessons
Grimey Drawer
You most definitely can employ MGs at sniping people.

See Carlos Hathcock and his scoped-M2.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
You can probably snipe someone with a machine gun, but you're such a big fat obvious target that you're asking to be countersniped by someone who's remaining hidden.

Probably why you'd want to not stop shooting lest they shoot you back in return.

vains
May 26, 2004

A Big Ten institution offering distance education catering to adult learners

Murgos posted:

Ok dude. I'll just go with you instead of my personal experience carring an M240 (effective on point targets to 800m) across Africa and manning M2s (effective range of 1850 meters, about where the eye can no longer discern individual objects).

Some poorly trained people may use them as you said but that's not actually how they are employed or intended to be used by anyone competent. The killing power of a modern infantry squad is its integral MGs, (well it's radios really) not small arms.

Cool. I'll keep speaking from my experience, too.

The FM on machine guns/my own experience seems to agree.

quote:

Most engagements are within 300 meters. However, the gunner must still engage targets out to
the maximum range of the machine gun.

Enemy personnel are seldom visible except when assaulting.

The gunner directs most combat fire where he has detected the enemy or where he suspects the
enemy of being, but where the gunner cannot see him. Area targets consist of objects or
outlines of men irregularly spaced along covere
d and concealed areas (ground folds, hedges,
borders of woods).

Most combat targets can be detected by smoke, flash, dust, noise, or movement, but the targets
remain visible only for a moment.

Some combat targets can be engaged using reference points, predetermined fire, or range
card data.

4-12.
In automatic fire, position is the most important aspect of marksmanship. If the gunner has a good
zero, correctly aims his weapon, and properly applies a steady hold in firing a burst of automatic fire, the
first round of that burst hits the target at the point of aim. However, this procedure might apply only to the
first round fired. The first round hits the aiming point the same as when a single round is fired. The recoil
from the first and subsequent rounds progressively disturb the lay of the weapon with each round of the
burst. The relationship between the point of impact of the first and subsequent rounds of the burst depends
on the stability of the gunner’s position.
His body, directly behind the weapon, serves as the foundation,
and his grip serves as a lock to hold the weapon against the foundation. The better the body alignment and
the steadier the grip, the less dispersed the rounds of a burst of automatic fire will be.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Disinterested posted:

that site is run by an insane sperg and I love him for it

it's the most detailed resource online about the napoleonic wars by far, although it has some weird questionable spots

It is a great taster, and while a few things might be wrong I still love reading it every few years. Plus the dedication with the MS paint art stuff rocks.

Xerxes17
Feb 17, 2011

Thomamelas posted:

Not a major sea battle but the HMS Dreadnought did that to a sub in WWI. It's the only kill of a submarine by a battleship.

"Congratulation Telegram from the public posted:

BUNGA BUNGA STOP

Splode
Jun 18, 2013

put some clothes on you little freak
I'd actually life to encourage this machine gun slap fight, it's really interesting.

Even the petty arguments in this thread are good.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Disinterested posted:

it has some weird questionable spots
like the goddamn opening quote!

"Uniform dress became the norm
with the adoption of regimental systems,
initially by the French army in the mid 17th century."
- wikipedia.org

Edit:

quote:

The uniforms worn during Napoleonic Wars
represent the most elaborate display of pomp
in the whole history of military dress.
I'd debate this, but I'm not sure if my guys' outfits count as "military dress." Does it have to be specifically military, or does any clothing worn by a soldier count?

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 02:53 on May 7, 2015

Squalid
Nov 4, 2008

Cyrano4747 posted:

I can't give you a solid recommendation, but I will say that you are limiting yourself terribly by demanding online access. Most good historical literature is only ever published on physical media.

almost any published work can be accessed instantly online; you just need to know the right place to look... of course if you have any scruples regarding file-sharing, not all sources will be equally useful

Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007


Are we even sure he meant digital? He hasn't posted again yet. Maybe he just meant "that I can order from an online retailer."

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Guys, machine guns are clearly for lying down at the end of a hallway and then killing all your enemies who have no choice but to advance through one doorway or stairwell. You use a 1x optical scope because they're 60m away tops, and scopes are cooler than ironsights. Have neither of you played Battlefield or something?



VVVVV: over what distances are we talking here?

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 05:04 on May 7, 2015

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug
RE: machinegun chat: an average quality Soviet conscript firing an AK/AKS-74 while prone was expected to get half of his bullets into a 40 cm by 40 cm square while firing short bursts, so a proper machinegun crewed by a competent shooter would be able to reach out and touch someone a lot further away.

If the same conscript just sprays and prays, the deviation grows to a hilarious 2+ meters in either direction, whereas for a skilled marksman it remains at a fair 62 by 82 cm.

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

spero che tu stia bene

Immanentized posted:

Outside of the magnificent facial hair, everyone in this picture is just so excited to be doing some ramming. (They missed, the first time at least.)

For those who may be curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lissa_(1866)

An amazing tidbit from that article:

quote:

The Italian gunners got a full broadside off at point blank range, but while they had remembered the gunpowder, in the excitement they had forgotten to load the shot.

Remove balls to fire blanks.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

V. Illych L. posted:

i suspect that the authors may have somewhat mischaracterised gustav adolf

also, Denmark's history after the medieval period is generally one lost war after another, i think they won, like, one war during that entire period and that's because the swedes were busy getting wailed on by Peter the Great

Yeah, "too big for our britches" were basically the order of the day. We really wanted to kick swede/german rear end, and had no idea we couldn't. Well, our delusional politicians hadn't, and that's the main thing :eng99:

E: I just want to add that this thread has made me want to learn about Wallenstein, and I'm having a great time at it :allears:

Tias fucked around with this message at 09:22 on May 7, 2015

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Tias posted:

Yeah, "too big for our britches" were basically the order of the day. We really wanted to kick swede/german rear end, and had no idea we couldn't. Well, our delusional politicians hadn't, and that's the main thing :eng99:

The fun part was of course that you were fully capable of it since you had a king who was probably one of the richest if not the richest man in Europe at the time. Which of course meant that the Danish parliament really couldn't hold the king back from doing whatever, since the king had more personal income than the state had state income.

Denmark and Sweden both have a history where they lose great power status but keep acting like they're still one for about a hundred years until reality sets in.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
Good morning!

Anyone here order some war? I've got the invoice right here.


Are you sure? It's quite fun (for some people).


Fine!


Maybe we can hang out instead.

(The military woman in the bottom right is trying to cheat the peasant next to her at cards though)

Boereverdriet (Peasant's Sorrow), also known as The Horrors of the Spanish War. Set of four engravings after David Vinckboons, by Boetius Adamsz Bolswert. The last one's a lovely quality because I couldn't find an example of it that was not a scan from a book.

NB: Check out the woman in the second engraving, bottom left. If you're looking at an early modern piece of art and there's a woman in it who's wearing snazzy formal wear but she's got big old sensible shoes underneath, she's with an army.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:53 on May 7, 2015

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Klaus88 posted:

I visited Gettysburg, stood on Cemetery hill, and listened to one of my fellow visitors sperge about how the muskets of the day weren't accurate past fifty feet. :negative:

Jesus, if you're gonna visit the battlefield, then you can at least watch a documentary beforehand.

You should hear what people say at concentration camps.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Tias posted:

E: I just want to add that this thread has made me want to learn about Wallenstein, and I'm having a great time at it :allears:
nobody else was on his level

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010

MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

Cool. I'll keep speaking from my experience, too.

The FM on machine guns/my own experience seems to agree.

No, it doesn't.

quote:

Most engagements are within 300 meters. However, the gunner must still engage targets out to
the maximum range of the machine gun
.
Most engagements happen at 300 yards. The weapon is capable of accurately placing fires much further out and YOU the gunner are expected to be able to use the weapon to full effect. Period. Full stop.

quote:

Enemy personnel are seldom visible except when assaulting.

The gunner directs most combat fire where he has detected the enemy or where he suspects the
enemy of being, but where the gunner cannot see him. Area targets consist of objects or
outlines of men irregularly spaced along covere
d and concealed areas (ground folds, hedges,
borders of woods).

Most combat targets can be detected by smoke, flash, dust, noise, or movement, but the targets
remain visible only for a moment.

Some combat targets can be engaged using reference points, predetermined fire, or range
card data.
If you can't see them or they are in cover (can't be hit) you can suppress them. Yes, that is a totally valid use of ANY weapon but that's not spray and pray. That's placing accurate fires such that the enemy can not accurately return fire and that they are pinned in place while engaged with indirect fires or maneuvered against.

Repeatedly putting rounds a few inches from where someone is hiding keeps them immobile. Spraying rounds way over their head or off over there somewhere has pretty much no suppressing ability whatsoever, I know this from personal experience too. A flood of tracers 10' over your head are pretty cool to look at though.

If they poke their stupid heads out you kill them. You don't call out, "Hey there's guys there out in the open someone kill them! This stupid MG is only good for suppression and I can't hit a loving thing with it."

quote:

4-12.
In automatic fire, position is the most important aspect of marksmanship. If the gunner has a good
zero, correctly aims his weapon, and properly applies a steady hold in firing a burst of automatic fire, the
first round of that burst hits the target at the point of aim
. However, this procedure might apply only to the
first round fired. The first round hits the aiming point the same as when a single round is fired. The recoil
from the first and subsequent rounds progressively disturb the lay of the weapon with each round of the
burst. The relationship between the point of impact of the first and subsequent rounds of the burst depends
on the stability of the gunner’s position. His body, directly behind the weapon, serves as the foundation,
and his grip serves as a lock to hold the weapon against the foundation. The better the body alignment and
the steadier the grip, the less dispersed the rounds of a burst of automatic fire will be.

Short controlled bursts my friend. This section of the FM doesn't say what you think it does. If you are spraying rounds down range wildly you are doing it wrong and you will die. MG's are accurate and deadly weapons and when used as such are a dominant element in battle.


edit: If someone want's to know what it really means to qualify with a machine gun you can read this: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-68/c04.htm

Yes, you are expected to quickly engage man sized targets out to 800 meters with limited time to aim and adjust with an M240 or M249. And by engage I mean hit, ideally with the first round and most of the follow on rounds. You are scored not only on the first round hitting but also subsequent rounds, to score expert MOST of your rounds in a burst have to hit the target.

Murgos fucked around with this message at 13:14 on May 7, 2015

Klaus88
Jan 23, 2011

Violence has its own economy, therefore be thoughtful and precise in your investment

Cyrano4747 posted:

You should hear what people say at concentration camps.

:stare:

What do people say at concentration camps.

I've been to the national holocaust museum and I shudder to think what kind of ignorant poo poo people would spout forth at the sites of some of man's greatest inhumanity against their fellow men.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Wasn't there a follow-up where she tweets about wanting to shoot the Baltimore protestors?

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

gradenko_2000 posted:

Wasn't there a follow-up where she tweets about wanting to shoot the Baltimore protestors?

I think she's done a whole bunch of dumb tweets.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Welp, reopen the gas chambers

Tevery Best
Oct 11, 2013

Hewlo Furriend

Cyrano4747 posted:

You should hear what people say at concentration camps.

Actually trying to act like you know anything at Auschwitz et al can get you in trouble. They have a policy of only allowing tour guides licensed by the museum itself to prevent crazies and Holocaust deniers from starting poo poo and I imagine they enforce it.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
WW2 Data
We continue to cover the various markings of Soviet munitions. Nothing too special, unless you haven't seen the Japanese markings where they also had weight variation markings. Chemical markings are also present and I suggest wiki'ing some info on them if you have the chance.




Wikipedia Talks about Lewisite posted:

Lewisite was developed into a secret weapon (at a facility located in Cleveland, Ohio (The Cleveland Plant) at East 131st Street and Taft Avenue[14]) and given the name "G-34" (which had previously been the code for mustard gas) in order to confuse its development with mustard gas.[15] Production began at a plant in Willoughby, Ohio on November 1, 1918.[16] It was not used in World War I, but experimented with in the 1920s as the "Dew of Death."[17]

After World War I, the US became interested in lewisite because it was not flammable. It had the military symbol of "M1" up into World War II, when it was changed to "L". Field trials with lewisite during World War II demonstrated that casualty concentrations were not achievable under high humidity due to its rate of hydrolysis and its characteristic odor and lacrymation forced troops to don masks and avoid contaminated areas.[citation needed] The United States produced about 20,000 tons of lewisite, keeping it on hand primarily as an antifreeze for mustard gas or to penetrate protective clothing in special situations.

It was replaced by the mustard gas variant HT (a 60:40 mixture of sulfur mustard and O Mustard), and declared obsolete in the 1950s. It is effectively treated with British anti-lewisite (dimercaprol). Most stockpiles of lewisite were neutralised with bleach and dumped into the Gulf of Mexico,[18] but some remained at the Deseret Chemical Depot located outside of Salt Lake City, Utah [1], although as of January 18, 2012 the last of the global stockpile there was destroyed.

In 2001, lewisite was found in a World War I weapons dump in Washington, D.C.[19]

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe
Someone let a 92 year old former ATA pilot fly a Spitfire.

That is one sharp goddamn 92 year old. Both she and the plane were quite good looking back in the day.

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Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug
Yeah, a lot of veterans are still fairly active. There was a video of a tanker in his early 90s bouncing around a restored T-34-85 like the war ended yesterday.

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