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Yeah i'd quit your current job as well as never reply to any contact from the person you're talking to now.
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Apr 20, 2015 21:59
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Can I get some advice? My team was laid off with a future expiration date, and we've all been applying to internal transfers to other teams. I did as well, and today was offered another position within the company on a different product. I verbally accepted it. I've also been interviewing with another company, and I was invited to do an in-house interview. If I pass it, I would be getting a substantial raise ($15,000 - $20,000), but I would completely burn all bridges with the company I'm currently at now and it's one of the biggest tech companies in the world with a lot of contacts at other places. What is the best way for me to professionally decline to continue participating in the second company's process? I've never been faced with having to turn down an interview request before and I don't want to burn any bridges, since the 2nd company is also a large player in the tech world.
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Apr 20, 2015 22:05
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Why exactly would you burn bridges? Most hiring managers don't lie in bed at night staring at the ceiling and moaning about the one that got away.
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Apr 20, 2015 22:26
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MrKatharsis posted:Why exactly would you burn bridges? Most hiring managers don't lie in bed at night staring at the ceiling and moaning about the one that got away. Well, I wouldn't really be burning bridges with the second company if I turned it down, I was just asking for a professional way of telling them I'm no longer interested since I've never been in these circumstances before. If I kept interviewing and took an offer with the second company, I'd definitely burn down bridges and the surrounding forest with the company I'm currently at since I've already agreed verbally to take their offer.
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Apr 20, 2015 22:43
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OhHiMaahk posted:Let's say I am a bonehead who did not find this thread early enough and let my current salary slip before an offer was made. Is there any way to dig out of this hole? Is making an insane counter offer a feasible strategy or just bad form? You have less leverage and will have to be more aggressive to make up for it. You might get a number that makes you happy, but if it's above what you're making now and not where you want to be, you'll probably have to be ready to walk on the job offer entirely to even get them to talk about what you're asking for. They'll definitely try to get you to accept something better than what you make now, it will definitely anchor the discussion near what you make now, and you will have to be resolute to get it to your desired number if that's not where they want to go. Do be ready to push it to the point of saying "I'm afraid I'll have to continue searching for other opportunities." and being smart enough not to tell the next employer you talk to what you make now. HonorableTB posted:Can I get some advice? You got fired, got accepted somewhere else and verbally accepted it, and then got a better offer elsewhere. To present employer: "When you notified me I was terminated, I started hunting for other jobs, both internally and externally. I would enjoy working with <new team>, and accepted before I heard back from <other company>. <other company> made a better offer to the tune of $20,000. Could you please match it?" If yes great. If no they a) terminated you, and b) failed to match another offer you were given after you were terminated You aren't the one burning any bridges.
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Apr 20, 2015 22:45
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Your current company laid you off, made you apply & interview for internal transfers rather than placing you, and you're worried about company loyalty and burning bridges rather than a 20k raise to work elsewhere? Think about that for a second. Changing jobs and companies is commonplace and widely accepted in the tech industry, and is by far the most common and effective way to get yourself into more senior, more interesting, and higher-paying gigs. You won't be burning bridges unless you literally tell everyone to go gently caress themselves on your way out the door. Don't be loyal to companies, be loyal to individual people you might some day want to work with again. People move around as opportunities come and go. You should treat your internal interview and negotiation as just one option to be played off other options. Everyone knows verbals ain't poo poo until the ink is on paper. Your circumstances changed and ain't nothing wrong with telling them exactly that. Guinness fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 20, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 22:46
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If you leave your current job one day before your first job's termination, Amazon will probably want a good chunk of your signing bonus or moving expenses back.
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Apr 20, 2015 23:23
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MrKatharsis posted:If you leave your current job one day before your first job's termination, Amazon will probably want a good chunk of your signing bonus or moving expenses back. That is another huge factor that made me accept the offer with the other team within the company. I don't want to have to repay any of that, and plus, this has been a really good place to work all things considered. I get to set my own hours, the pay is pretty good (Especially for someone like me who doesn't have a background or degree in tech), I get bonuses, and this other team will allow me to spend 20% of my week developing whatever business skills I feel like learning (plus reimbursement for certifications), so I can learn automation and scripting in an environment where I would be encouraged to ask questions. The other big factor that influenced that was that my resume makes me look like a contractor - I want to add some consistency to it by staying at one place longer than a year, which to date hasn't actually happened yet.
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Apr 20, 2015 23:35
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HonorableTB posted:That is another huge factor that made me accept the offer with the other team within the company. I don't want to have to repay any of that Would repaying the sign-on bonus and/or moving payment be so onerous as to make an extra $20,000 a year not worth it, though? Granted, it might be a sudden hit to your finances right now, but over the next year or two, would the higher salary not offset that cost and then some?
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Apr 20, 2015 23:51
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ibntumart posted:Would repaying the sign-on bonus and/or moving payment be so onerous as to make an extra $20,000 a year not worth it, though? Granted, it might be a sudden hit to your finances right now, but over the next year or two, would the higher salary not offset that cost and then some? I definitely do not have that kind of money on hand. I've been focusing (in BFC fashion) on debt repayment and trying to build a buffer, but the amount is too steep for me to be able to pay back immediately. It would take me at least six months. Edit: Not to completely hijack the thread (since all I wanted was an example of how to professionally decline the interview), but I just finished getting settled in and I've been on the west coast for about five months and just finished paying off two credit cards and moving-related expenses that weren't covered and my finances were just recovering from all of that when I got the news about the layoff. There's been a lot of ups and downs this year. Edit 2: Now that I think about it, the layoff situation is still better than what the vast majority of people get. We were given two months of advance notice and we had a lot of help from HR in setting up internal interviews with other teams, and we were paid to go interview and go to informational sessions. To give myself a frame of reference, a friend at my old job in Atlanta was laid off with 40% of the rest of staff and they were told to clean out their desks that hour and go home. I definitely got lucky on this one. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 20, 2015 23:57
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I understand that if you leave early, you have to repay relocation expenses. But if they fire you, do you still have to? A verbal acceptance is not a full acceptance, so at this point you are still being fired at the end of the two months, right?
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Apr 21, 2015 00:13
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Omne posted:I understand that if you leave early, you have to repay relocation expenses. But if they fire you, do you still have to? A verbal acceptance is not a full acceptance, so at this point you are still being fired at the end of the two months, right? The verbal offer was, the way I took it, a confirmation that I wanted the position. I had to also formally apply for the req on the internal website, which started the HR process going. I've been watching my coworkers go through this as well, and the process is always the same: go to an info session, get an interview, pass the interview, get an email from the hiring manager saying "Hey, we'd like to give you this job, if you want it then go to this URL and apply, and we'll send you a paper offer once the bureaucracy is finished" and then they get the paper offer about a week later.
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Apr 21, 2015 00:17
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HonorableTB posted:The verbal offer was, the way I took it, a confirmation that I wanted the position. I had to also formally apply for the req on the internal website, which started the HR process going. I've been watching my coworkers go through this as well, and the process is always the same: go to an info session, get an interview, pass the interview, get an email from the hiring manager saying "Hey, we'd like to give you this job, if you want it then go to this URL and apply, and we'll send you a paper offer once the bureaucracy is finished" and then they get the paper offer about a week later. Yeah so no offer letter and they still terminated you. You not taking another job with them doesn't undo the termination.
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Apr 21, 2015 00:38
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HonorableTB posted:The verbal offer was, the way I took it, a confirmation that I wanted the position. I had to also formally apply for the req on the internal website, which started the HR process going. I've been watching my coworkers go through this as well, and the process is always the same: go to an info session, get an interview, pass the interview, get an email from the hiring manager saying "Hey, we'd like to give you this job, if you want it then go to this URL and apply, and we'll send you a paper offer once the bureaucracy is finished" and then they get the paper offer about a week later. if you don't even have an offer you definitely shouldn't back out on that other job. also check your contract but i'd tell amazon to go gently caress themselves if they try to claw back relocation/signing if they're laying you off
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Apr 21, 2015 01:39
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Even if you intend to stay at Amazon like a crazy person, you definitely should not back out on the other interview until you have the new position in writing and signed. Plus maybe you'll find the other company is great and the significantly higher pay is appealing. I work with a lot of ex-Amazon people that all realized they could get paid more and have a healthier work-life balance by leaving. Amazon's churn rate is just crazy.
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Apr 21, 2015 01:44
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HonorableTB posted:The verbal offer was, the way I took it, a confirmation that I wanted the position. I had to also formally apply for the req on the internal website, which started the HR process going. I've been watching my coworkers go through this as well, and the process is always the same: go to an info session, get an interview, pass the interview, get an email from the hiring manager saying "Hey, we'd like to give you this job, if you want it then go to this URL and apply, and we'll send you a paper offer once the bureaucracy is finished" and then they get the paper offer about a week later. Why turn down an interview for a job? See what the other company has to offer. Maybe you can get a signing bonus that will allow you to repay the Amazon moving cash? You seem to be really hesitant to not go to this interview, but I can't think of a reason I wouldn't do an interview unless I had no desire what-so-ever to take the job.
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Apr 21, 2015 03:40
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Thanks for all the advice guys. I've got the interview confirmed for Wednesday afternoon.
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Apr 21, 2015 04:54
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I've been sending a couple messages back and forth with a recruiter since yesterday (how convenient that I'm moving soon) and he's asking me what my salary expectations are. Is it still advisable in this scenario to never be the first to give a number, or can I be a little more open with him since he's not the one who will directly make me an offer?
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Apr 21, 2015 14:11
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C-Euro posted:I've been sending a couple messages back and forth with a recruiter since yesterday (how convenient that I'm moving soon) and he's asking me what my salary expectations are. Is it still advisable in this scenario to never be the first to give a number, or can I be a little more open with him since he's not the one who will directly make me an offer? If he approached you I'd demand he disclose what they're looking to pay. This will anchor the discussion of pay to the top end of what they are willing to pay. If you approached him I'd give him the most ambitious number you can conceive of getting paid with your experience and skillset. This anchors the discussion of pay at or above the top end of what they are willing to pay. Anchor the discussion at the top end of what they are willing to pay. Do not back off the number because you are afraid of scaring them off. If they initially blanch at your first number, then get them to issue a counter offer, do NOT back off your number without a countering offer.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:35
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It's a recruiting agency and they don't have a position lined up right now, I think this is more to help him narrow down where to look for openings. I'll try to keep it high though, thanks. I led with "depends on the cost of living" since it's a pretty different area from where I currently live. He gave me some stuff to look at on that subject so hopefully he doesn't have numbers in mind already. E: His words were "I’m just trying to get an idea of what your range is so that the other recruiters/executives that now have your info on file, know what will be a good fit for you", so I'm almost certain he doesn't have a position in mind yet and just wants to know where to jump off, but I have a couple salary data points and that super-dope "lead" from last month so I'm beginning to form a ballpark number. What are the popular salary comparison sites? Salary.com, Indeed, does Glassdoor have that capability? C-Euro fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 14:38
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For a recruiting agency, I think honest, but high is a good policy. No sense in excluding it from them since it'll make it harder for them to find the right positions.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:17
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HonorableTB posted:I definitely do not have that kind of money on hand. I've been focusing (in BFC fashion) on debt repayment and trying to build a buffer, but the amount is too steep for me to be able to pay back immediately. It would take me at least six months. It would be very reasonable to ask your new employer to pay you a signing bonus to offset any clawbacks you are assessed back by your current employer. the talent deficit posted:if you don't even have an offer you definitely shouldn't back out on that other job. also check your contract but i'd tell amazon to go gently caress themselves if they try to claw back relocation/signing if they're laying you off Also this Xandu posted:For a recruiting agency, I think honest, but high is a good policy. No sense in excluding it from them since it'll make it harder for them to find the right positions. it depends on the recruiter and how they operate tbh. If they're the kind that builds a pool of candidates and then matches them to spots as they come in, or if they have a more collaborative, candidate-focused style then by all means give them a real but aggressive range. If they're the sort that basically offload the process of making the initial posting and screening resumes then it's much more like speaking to the company directly and you should be more reserved in offering up numbers.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:20
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I'm in kind of a weird situation right now, figured I'd post in this thread and see what folks think Right now I've got 3 years in at employer A as the singular IT generalist for the office making 57K a year plus 10% bonus. It's a start up that was acquired a few years ago, we have shittons of proprietary processes and tech and corporate is loving clueless, but basically my role has been to keep this going at my office. I've kind of spent the last few years forging this spot intentionally so I'm bulletproof unless they kill off all these systems, but that's probably not happening within my lifetime. They need someone to deal with all this stuff and I'm that guy. No one cares what I do as long as the ship keeps sailing. I used to have a local team that I could collaborate with and things were really great, but after the buyout I'm by myself in my location, everyone on my team is across the country and not super receptive to communication, everyone just kind of does their own thing. I've been completely ignored and totally miserable because of this for about a year an a half, supervised by a totally clueless middle manager that was also halfway across the country and totally hands off when poo poo hits the fan. No recognition for anything from this guy, very typical poo poo. Lots of empty promises to get more involved in the business and visit different sites, lots of promotions and "plans for me" that evaporate. As of about 6 weeks ago I have a new more coherent supervisor who took over supporting all the remote offices, but it didn't seem like much was changing so I started looking again. About a year ago I was brought in by employer B to interview. The loved me and offered me a job right away, but I was also interviewing for a promotion at employer A that would've been way more lucrative so I had to decline the offer at employer B because A was taking so long to give an answer back, so that was that. About three weeks ago recruiter reaches out to me about employer B again, saying they have an open position. Turns out they never filled it from before and they're looking again. I go back and interview, they basically invite me with open arms to take the job. Recruiter offers $35 an hour contract to hire for 6 months. That turns out a bit too high, so they negotiate me to go perm right away at $64K which is a little higher than my base rate plus bonus at employer A. They also offer a 6 month review and at that time to possibly increase my rate, but not anything set in stone so I'm not even sure why it was included. I accepted the offer since it's a change and a decent bump. Put in my resignation with employer A and my supervisor is immediately bugging. Admits it's a massive failure on his part, really had no idea any of this was going on since he's new. I get a call from HR with a crazy counteroffer. They're willing to restructure my position, I'd have a contractor reporting to me to assist with supporting the other nearby offices so I don't have to deal with it, as well as a title change, and from $57K to $70K base rate plus 15% bonus from 10% , and I'm pretty sure I could negotiate the $70K to $75 without any issues, with bonus that's $85K. Have until Friday night to respond to it. Boss keeps reaching out in good will to see if there's anything he can do to keep me. Reach out to my recruiter with the counter to see if there's any room at all and employer B does not negotiate anything, won't budge on numbers and seems super discouraged by even bringing it up. Recruiter says the counteroffer isn't serious and that it's just a pot shot to get me to stay where I am so they don't have to clean up the mess after I leave, which is honestly, pretty likely, however new supervisor at A is a really good guy who I have worked with previously, so it might be genuine. Going to employer B is the same compensation I'm getting now including my bonus, and there's no bonus at employer B. I'm looking at $64K at B and a minimum of $80K if I stay at A. Not sure if it's worth it to stay or go. I'd say at A if there was a solid plan in place that I'd be more involved with the team I work with, but I don't know how that's physically possible since I'm in a remote office against the country. Another thing is that I'm also starting a photography business in the next year or two, so once that takes off I'm out for good anyway. Basically I have no loving clue what to do. If B offered the base salary A offered me I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I don't want to take this counteroffer and be stuck at this company for the rest of my life.
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Apr 24, 2015 02:16
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I'd take the promotion at company A while still looking for a new job. It's such a big step up in salary with a promotion that will give you leverage when looking for a new job. If they can't easily replace you, as you said, then the risk is low, but it seems unlikely that all the issues with the job will go away.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:56
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You have company A by the balls big time and since you're perfectly willing to walk you can negotiate hard on the salary bump. No one can say how miserable your life is at company A but this is about the best situation for you to be in. It sounds like the decision rests on if you have a good feeling about working for the new supervisor at company A. If you'd honestly still be miserable, then I'd say the money isn't worth it. But keep in mind there are probably going to be stupid things to deal with at company B as well. So I'd lean toward gunning for $80k+ plus bonus at company A to cash in on the hard work you did making yourself bullet proof.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:10
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You have to make this decision for yourself, but consider: No amount of additional compensation will make you forget the bad times you've had with A. If B has not filled the position in 12 months, they may be willing to match A when push comes to shove. If you do not move on, A is going to be doing everything in their power to reduce their reliance on you. The fact you're being offered a direct report is likely A trying to replicate your skillset in a subordinate. You'll never have the ability to gently caress over A as much as you possess it right now. If you don't take the offer from B this time, they will probably take it personally and never evaluate you again. If B does take it personally, that says more about them than it does about you. B likely has its own set of dysfunctions and aggravations. I would plan ahead based on how much stress you're up for outside of work. I think if you took the offer from B it is a trivially material improvement from your current situation that is not rife with drama, and you'd be filling a pressing need in their organization. If you took up A on their offer to stick around, I would not hesitate to continue looking for a job at your new compensation for one instant, and would leave as soon as the getting got good. If you do stick around it is very likely that reducing their reliance upon you will be their first priority, followed up by cutting their personnel costs by replacing you with a less expensive employee. Going ahead with B probably means a nice cushy job for an extended period of time. Going ahead with A is a career move that improves your leverage but carries significant risks and the clock starts ticking as soon as you have a direct report.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:29
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The less cynical view: they actually didn't know how much they needed you and are sincerely trying to resolve the situation. You can reinforce this by taking the job and being awesome now that you've got a new manager that seems not to be a jackass. You've said you don't care beyond 2 years since you're starting a photography business anyways so at this point is just stick with whoever will pay you more and plan for your exit.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:12
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Saint Fu posted:You have company A by the balls big time and since you're perfectly willing to walk you can negotiate hard on the salary bump. No one can say how miserable your life is at company A but this is about the best situation for you to be in. It sounds like the decision rests on if you have a good feeling about working for the new supervisor at company A. If you'd honestly still be miserable, then I'd say the money isn't worth it. But keep in mind there are probably going to be stupid things to deal with at company B as well. So I'd lean toward gunning for $80k+ plus bonus at company A to cash in on the hard work you did making yourself bullet proof. This. Don't just accept company A's offer. Ask for more. Do you think they would completely change their mind and get rid of you if you ask for > $90k? Because otherwise, I'd do that. If they don't know how much the other company's offer is, then why not tell them you were expecting something like $90k + 10% bonus and ask what they can do / say you need some time to think?
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Apr 28, 2015 04:02
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I'm about to get my BS in Computer Science and am currently interviewing for a Junior Software Developer position at a small (25-30 employees) software company. I had a phone interview with the owner this morning and I think it went pretty well. He's having me fill out their official application now before I come in for another interview and it has a field for "expected salary". What is the best thing to put in this situation? I read through this thread a bit and see that there are some differences to consider when talking about a small business because the pay does come out of their pocket instead of a set budget. After a little bit of research it looks like the average pay for an entry level Software Dev position in this area is around $60,000. Should I just put that? Should I put a range like $55-65k? Or should I just put that it is negotiable and discuss it if they decide to offer me the job?
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Apr 29, 2015 16:44
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If you put in a range, expect the offer to come in at the bottom end of that range.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:43
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Thanks to this thread I was able to write in email in 5 minutes which earned me $5000. You are all glorious goons.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:08
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Jato posted:I'm about to get my BS in Computer Science and am currently interviewing for a Junior Software Developer position at a small (25-30 employees) software company. I had a phone interview with the owner this morning and I think it went pretty well. He's having me fill out their official application now before I come in for another interview and it has a field for "expected salary". I don't like putting anything down there because when I'm thinking about working somewhere, I don't just think about the money. I think about vacation, atmosphere, health insurance, retirement, management style, flex time, work type and other perks/benefits. When you put a number (even a range) in that field, the person reading it may be assuming a standard package from their company that you know very little about. I'd almost always take a deal with less salary and more vacation but if they see $55k minimum and offer $55k and two weeks vacation, they might expect me to give up some money for another week or something. On the other hand, if they make you an offer or you get farther in to the interview process when they ask you to name a price, you can ask about all this other stuff so whether they ask you for a number then (better than earlier) or make you an offer (best), you can look at the entire compensation package in light of the intangibles like whether your boss's boss is a piece of poo poo or whatever. I don't know if this has cost me interviews, it is not as if I regularly get emails from people who don't interview me telling me why. But I'm comfortable with the risk and if you are too, you might consider putting in negotiable. Edit: As a cautionary tale, recently a goon in the interview thread named his price and then found out that his job was in two locations and was unable to get any compensation for that. MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 20:42
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Write 'competitive' if the form is open data entry. If it forces a number wrote an aggressive but not totally insane number. Try to have a reference point if they force the issue.
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Apr 30, 2015 01:28
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Xandu posted:For a recruiting agency, I think honest, but high is a good policy. No sense in excluding it from them since it'll make it harder for them to find the right positions. Just checking, is the general consensus here that it's okay to tell the recruiters a range, but a high range? This is what I've been doing so far.
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May 3, 2015 18:14
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No, a range is stupid. Just put one word or one number. Why should they care about the high end of your range when you've already told them you'll work for less? VV That can also blow up in your face. It's probably worth doing the back-and-forth with competing offers once, but more than one round and you start looking like a jerk. i say swears online fucked around with this message at 19:12 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 19:02
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I'll avoid doing that in the future. My plan to rescue the negotiations is to work several offers off each other.
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May 3, 2015 19:10
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As someone who lurks this thread I just wanted to say thank you. When I reached my boiling point and had to have a real conversation with my employer about role and compensation all of the good advice here (and seeing the bad advice) ultimately helped me out tons.
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May 7, 2015 07:20
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If you can, could you be more specific on the situation? Why was the job becoming more stressful, and was it only money that solved the issue?
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May 7, 2015 08:36
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Thanks to this thread I landed a 20% raise at my year review. Thanks, goons.
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May 7, 2015 16:45
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Thanks to this thread I landed a 20% raise at my year review. Thanks, goons. drat, that's killer for a raise. Anything above like 3-4% is great, 20% is massive. Well done.
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May 7, 2015 17:57
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