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RyokoTK posted:What exactly is "emergent gameplay" supposed to be besides a buzzword, anyway? Also nice grandpa post there, grandpa. Basically, non-scripted gameplay that the designer did not necessarily intend. That one guy who took manderley all the way through Deus Ex for example.
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May 8, 2015 02:36
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Lord Lambeth posted:Basically, non-scripted gameplay that the designer did not necessarily intend. That one guy who took manderley all the way through Deus Ex for example. So, shoddy programming?
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May 8, 2015 02:58
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RyokoTK posted:So, shoddy programming? No it's like when you get into a big chase in GTA and the action develops as the AI responds to what you do, as opposed to one of the regular missions where someone sat down and planned out where all the cops and cover and event flags were going to be.
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May 8, 2015 03:20
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swamp waste posted:No it's like when you get into a big chase in GTA and the action develops as the AI responds to what you do, as opposed to one of the regular missions where someone sat down and planned out where all the cops and cover and event flags were going to be. Okay? There are already modern games that do that, Far Cry 4 is one and we were just talking about that. Like drat near the entire game is attacking positions in the open and the guards just kind of hang out and react to whatever you do. I mean, at some point there needs to be some degree of direction and script.
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May 8, 2015 03:36
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RyokoTK posted:So, shoddy programming? Sometimes, yeah. Designers and programmers can't account for every stupid idea that comes to someone's mind.
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May 8, 2015 03:46
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WeaponGradeSadness posted:I know this is like the tiniest of all possible nitpicks but I really don't like that ever since Shogun II, the Total War games have had their titles formatted like "Total War: [GAME NAME]" instead of "[GAME NAME]: Total War." The old way sounded better and I keep looking for Attila: Total War at the top of my Steam library instead of Total War: Attila at the bottom They went from Heroes of Might and magic for five installments, to Might and Magic: Heroes for the sixth installment, because I guess Ubisoft were thinking of reviving the Might and Magic gameline. But all it really served to do was toss the sixth game away from the rest in alphabetical lists and ruin the HoMM acronym everyone was using anyway. Such a pointless thing to be annoyed about, but god damnit I hate it. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 03:54 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 03:52
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darkhand posted:Speaking of sliding puzzles, the worst one I've ever had to do was in Everquest. You had to arrange these statues in a certain order but you had to target them and tell them which direction to move. It was so agonizingly slow; and you had to do it TWICE. And you better hope you read the vague instructions about who was supposed to be on the West/East side! Mahatototarit says 'Once I reorder the board you may begin, return to me when you are [done] ordering the board... To bring order you must remember that Azia loves the South as much as Dena loves the West, while Meda despises Dena, and Paza has has deserted the Northeast leaving it barren. I did those puzzles for like half my guild and my answer of you spin it in a circle still infuriates some of them that I kept in contact with.
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May 8, 2015 07:38
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RyokoTK posted:I mean, at some point there needs to be some degree of direction and script. Why?
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May 8, 2015 13:00
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Playing the version of Guacamelee on the PS4 and it is pretty annoying that they constantly display "Player 2,3,4 Press Start" at the top of the screen. Hope your TV doesn't get burn in.
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May 8, 2015 13:03
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DStecks posted:Why? To tell you what to do? To have a beginning and an end, and objectives, and a story to follow? I mean, Doom has direction. There's an entry point and the level exit, and there are keys and switches you have to hit (sometimes in a particular sequence, even). It's not like every step of the way is a scripted pseudo-cinematic event, but it's definitely planned out by the designer. A game with no direction and no script is Minecraft, and Minecraft is loving boring.
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May 8, 2015 14:16
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Cleretic posted:They went from Heroes of Might and magic for five installments, to Might and Magic: Heroes for the sixth installment, because I guess Ubisoft were thinking of reviving the Might and Magic gameline. But all it really served to do was toss the sixth game away from the rest in alphabetical lists and ruin the HoMM acronym everyone was using anyway. They're making a Might and Magic Heroes VII now. Its so dumb. The game is called HoMM and everybody knows it. The new devs kinda suck balls though, its real clear they were tossed the HOMM licence and just kinda said "okay we'll do that."  ) didn't even have loving town screens at launch. How can you gently caress up that badly? Everybody complained about it enough they went and patched in some town screens, but they're extremely bland compared to the character that 3's and 5's or even 2's town screens had.Now in VII there's town screens from the start at least, but they look like some cheap photoshop jobs. Heroes 3, in loving 1993:  Heroes 7, about to come out:  How do you gently caress up so bad when you have 22 years of better technology?! DStecks posted:Why? Don't be obtuse, even sandbox games like GTA have missions if you want them. But GTA also lets you gently caress off and do sandbox stuff with cops aka "emergent gameplay". If you want to make a game that's just all toolkit you can make like rollercoaster tycoon or whatever but most sandboxes still have some direction. Even RCT had missions. Ultimately the best description of it that I've heard came from Will Wright, who described it something like "most games you play them like you watch a movie, but some games you play with them the way you play with toys." Zaphod42 has a new favorite as of 15:16 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 15:08
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What company made HoMM V? Cause seriously that one was the best by far and every expansion was solid gold. The town screens were freaking killer and the return to really great music and unit design was unparalleled after 4 really crapped out. 3 was my second favorite unless you played friends and someone had to be the guy who chose Conflux. VI felt like such a step down from the series and I feel like VII will be a leap off the cliff that finishes that series from ever having any potential ever again.
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May 8, 2015 15:28
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Hunky Joe posted:What company made HoMM V? Cause seriously that one was the best by far and every expansion was solid gold. The town screens were freaking killer and the return to really great music and unit design was unparalleled after 4 really crapped out. 3 was my second favorite unless you played friends and someone had to be the guy who chose Conflux. Yeah 5 is easily one of the best, and THE best for new players. It is much more intuitive and has a much friendlier UI than 3 does. (3 practically requires you to have the game manual in your lap to play it) 5 also had tremendous 3D town screens, unlike literally every other game in the series (which have had 2d town screens). And like you said they were really really well done. To top it all off, the reason why 5 is almost my favorite over 3 (3 has more depth and difficulty and the classic feel) is because one of the expansions to 5 straight up doubled the number of units each faction had, and rather than just giving you a 3rd upgrade to each unit it gave you a 2nd first upgrade, or a side-grade. Now suddenly each troop has 2 flavors for you to pick from that have some really really fun strategic choices, like do you want more offense or defense, do you want a wizard with more spells or one that can fight better, do you want ninjas that can turn invisible or assassins that poison people, things like that. It was made by Nival Interactive, who I've never heard of before. Some small Russian studio? Sadly it was the only HOMM game they got to make and they completely hit it out of the park. Wiki says they also made Silent Storm though, which makes total sense, and they worked on one of the King's Bounty games too, which also makes sense.
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May 8, 2015 15:43
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Did I do something wrong when I played HoMM3 a few years ago? The town screen was basically a menu where you did you upgrades and units right? Like I don't remember it doing anything but looking cheesy as poo poo.
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May 8, 2015 15:44
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Len posted:Did I do something wrong when I played HoMM3 a few years ago? The town screen was basically a menu where you did you upgrades and units right? Like I don't remember it doing anything but looking cheesy as poo poo. If you only played HOMM3 a few years ago that may be the problem. It came out in 1993 and it looked absolutely breathtaking in loving '93  I still think they look stellar but maybe its nostalgia at this point. Still, 2, 3 and 5's screens look really good while 4's are like a cheesier version of 3's and 6 and 7's look really bad.
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May 8, 2015 15:46
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So the town screen is just a menu for upgrades and units? Not sure why it would be a big thing to not have them then.
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May 8, 2015 15:48
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Len posted:So the town screen is just a menu for upgrades and units? Not sure why it would be a big thing to not have them then. Because its been an essential part of the game from the get-go and to not have it is to break tradition and be a different game entirely!  But yeah, it was just a neat representation of the progress of your city. Build a barracks or a wizard tower and now the town screen shows a barracks or a wizard tower! The world reacts and grows as you do things! Just like the city screen in Civ II. While I don't particularly care either way, the posted example of VII's town screen is butt ugly, drat.
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May 8, 2015 15:51
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Len posted:So the town screen is just a menu for upgrades and units? Not sure why it would be a big thing to not have them then. That's like saying "What, so the game has really good looking grass? who cares it doesn't change gameplay" Who cares if the game plays in 720p30 or if everything is just flat-shaded, eh? Why do these developers waste all their time on pretty graphics?! Some people like playing MUDs, but other people like to see things in their game that create a sense of immersion?  Seeing the town grow as you upgraded it was really rewarding, and coming home to your town after several battles felt really good. Without town screens HOMM turns into Master of Orion. I don't want to stare at spreadsheets all day if I'm not working. Zaphod42 has a new favorite as of 15:55 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 15:53
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That's such a shame. I had thought Ubisoft had made that one which lead to me wondering how they could gently caress up so totally after that. Makes sense someone else made that one. I just remember 4 was when Real World Computing went under and they released like two expansions that were absolutely rubbish but they were being shut down so they didn't give a gently caress. Some good ideas in the game but poorly executed all around. Tribes of the East was amazing and I loved the Dwarf faction too. Despite the dwarves being an odd faction all their own they just... Fit so well. And stronghold was for once one of my favorites to play. I had played them all but 1 up until that point and 5 was not only really user friendly and fun it had some really creative juices flowing that breathed life into the series. Everything felt like it fit. I just got GoG Galaxy and remembered I had 5 on there and all the expansions cause I lost the discs. Nostalgia here I come!
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May 8, 2015 15:57
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The humble bundle also has a shitload of HoMM games if anyone else wants nostalgia.
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May 8, 2015 16:05
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Hunky Joe posted:That's such a shame. I had thought Ubisoft had made that one which lead to me wondering how they could gently caress up so totally after that. Makes sense someone else made that one. I just remember 4 was when Real World Computing went under and they released like two expansions that were absolutely rubbish but they were being shut down so they didn't give a gently caress. Some good ideas in the game but poorly executed all around. Ubisoft published all of them since... HOMM 4, which was the last one 3DO published and New World Computing developed. Since then Ubisoft has been passing it around to different studios, it seems.  Len posted:The humble bundle also has a shitload of HoMM games if anyone else wants nostalgia. Oh snap, so it does! https://www.humblebundle.com/ Even includes the recent HOMM 3 HD remake if you pay enough. I already have everything but the HD version though... Although $15 is how much HOMM 3 HD alone costs on steam, so the rest is just a free bonus.
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May 8, 2015 16:13
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RyokoTK posted:A game with no direction and no script is Minecraft, and Minecraft is loving boring. A lot of people would disagree heartily. I mean, not trying to start a shitfight here, I just find this perspective really interesting when 99% of the current thought I hear on game design is trying to get away from directed play, to make the emergent gameplay into the "true" gameplay rather than a sideshow between missions. Shadow of Mordor is the best/only mainstream example of this actually being attempted. Again, not going to fight you and tell you you're wrong, it's just that what you're saying is wildly unorthodox and you're saying it as if it's self-evident. How do you feel about a game like Crusader Kings 2 (if you've ever played it)?
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May 8, 2015 16:51
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DStecks posted:How do you feel about a game like Crusader Kings 2 (if you've ever played it)? I've never really understood why CKII is one of the go to games for "crazy poo poo happens". I love the game and have clocked hundreds of hours on it, but there really isn't much that can happen that can really catch you off guard. "Oh no, the King that sleeps with every chamber maid in his Kingdom died of Gonorrhea, who saw that coming..." The game is fairly heavily scripted, it's only the order and frequency of events that changes with each new session. It's a fun as hell game but It's not really as "emergent" as a lot of people like to believe. Hell, nine times out of ten the only time anything even remotely substantial happens is when the player actively sets up the domino's to facilitate it. Otherwise the AI just goes about its merry business and the landscape remains mostly unchanged.
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May 8, 2015 18:11
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Esroc posted:I've never really understood why CKII is one of the go to games for "crazy poo poo happens". I love the game and have clocked hundreds of hours on it, but there really isn't much that can happen that can really catch you off guard. "Oh no, the King that sleeps with every chamber maid in his Kingdom died of Gonorrhea, who saw that coming..." The game is fairly heavily scripted, it's only the order and frequency of events that changes with each new session. It's a fun as hell game but It's not really as "emergent" as a lot of people like to believe. I'm not using it as an example of "crazy poo poo happens", I'm using it as an example of a game without any true direction given to the player as to what they're meant to do; but without being as completely formless as something like Minecraft.
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May 8, 2015 18:28
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Emergent gameplay is that one guy who carried the fridge from Jensen's apartment through the entire game in DX:HR and used it as his only weapon.
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May 8, 2015 18:39
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Emergent gameplay is getting 10 people on GTA online to call a taxi and have it drive along a mountain road only to have every single one flip over around one turn and fall down a mountain.
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May 8, 2015 18:46
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Emergent gameplay is seeing the Buddha on the road, and killing him.
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May 8, 2015 19:30
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Rocket jumping. That's like the biggest and most well-known example of emergent gameplay.
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May 8, 2015 19:59
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RyokoTK posted:To tell you what to do? To have a beginning and an end, and objectives, and a story to follow? A lot of people enjoy games without direction and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no reason why a game has to tell you what your goal should be.
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May 8, 2015 23:04
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Sleeveless posted:
Fixed that for you.
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May 9, 2015 00:04
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I've been playing Final Fantasy VI recently, trying to clear off one of those classic games I never beat for no apparent reason. I'm realizing what did it now, though: the World of Ruin sucks. It's got the same 'the final dungeon is right there, but there's sidequests all over the world for you to gear up in' structure as FFV's endgame, which is my favorite Final Fantasy. FFV did this perfectly, so it surprises me just how badly VI handles it in comparison. -In V, it's all quite clearly signposted. It's clear with a bit of looking where all the quests are, because there's always something directing you there. In VI, some of the sidequests are really unclear. The Phoenix Cave where you reunite with Locke, the Ancient Castle where you get Odin/Raiden, the location of Umaro, how you recruit Terra after finding her again, Shadow just in general... you can be forgiven for missing all of these, because there's no indication whatsoever where you go or what you do. -V's difficulty is really consistent; it's all 'FFV Hard', where it's a pretty decent challenge right up until you figure out how to completely and utterly clown it. Not so in FFVI, where challenge in the World of Ruin varies wildly, from the cakewalk of Owzer's Mansion to the frustrating complexity of the Phoenix Cave, right up to the 'gently caress you' of the Cultist's Tower. Bosses are all over the place too; some dungeons don't even have them, for absolutely no clear reason, while others will come out swinging with something like Magic Master. The closest thing the game has to a superboss is randomly plopped somewhere in the sky, ready to obliterate you before you can even know what's going on and without giving you a chance to save. -V's rewards were pretty consistently worthwhile, too. Every one of those bonus little things would give you a pretty good piece of equipment, or a spell, or a new job. VI's rewards are disparate at best, with one dungeon giving you a single pretty useless esper, while another might give you an extremely useful one, plus a crucial piece of equipment, a great relic, and/or a party member. At least one literally doesn't even have a reward or dungeon loot, it's just an annoying cave that ends in a pretty strong boss that provides no reward. The party structure itself is really hard for me to get into, as well. For a game like this I usually focus on getting one primary team up and leading the charge, and the game's largely structured to let you do that... except for the times where it declares that you need to make more teams. The stats are all over the place too, with a lot of the party members having no clear role. You'd theoretically be able to fix that through the esper system, but a lot of their base stats just aren't suited for much of anything, and most characters don't have worthwhile magic stats, so it's not worth giving them magic. Basically, the wheels fall off FFVI at the end, to such a point where I can't really tell what they were going for, I can only tell that I'm pretty sure they failed. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 01:35 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 01:28
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"Emergent gameplay" is literally why GTA exists still and is probably why the sandbox-game open-world genre even exists to the degree that it does.
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May 9, 2015 02:07
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death .cab for qt posted:"Emergent gameplay" is literally why GTA exists still and is probably why the sandbox-game open-world genre even exists to the degree that it does.
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May 9, 2015 02:11
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FactsAreUseless posted:I thought GTA was about driving cars and stuff. And it was only successful because the cops-running-your-rear end-down aspect was a glitch, entirely unrelated to the game's original purpose, and everybody loved it so much it stayed in. "Emergent gameplay" is pretty much one of the most important aspects of video games because of things like that.
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May 9, 2015 02:21
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Are you telling me "Emergent gameplay" is literally anything that isn't prompted by 'go activate this floating exclamation point?'
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May 9, 2015 02:28
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death .cab for qt posted:And it was only successful because the cops-running-your-rear end-down aspect was a glitch, entirely unrelated to the game's original purpose, and everybody loved it so much it stayed in.
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May 9, 2015 02:30
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Oh, okay, so is "emergent gameplay" like when you take the baby in Fallout 3 out into the wasteland? Because that is so my jam.
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May 9, 2015 02:42
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Drunk Nerds posted:Oh, okay, so is "emergent gameplay" like when you take the baby in Fallout 3 out into the wasteland? Yes. It's gameplay that wasn't originally designed, and occurs either due to glitches or player creativity. SL1 dark souls runs, taking turns with friends to last longer while at a six star wanted level in GTA, necromancer no-attacking-enemies-only-using-summoned-minions runs in Diablo II, speedrunning games, etc.
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May 9, 2015 03:14
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How the gently caress do people not know what emergent gameplay is in TYOOL 2015? This poo poo's been around for almost two decades.  VVVVVVVVV I get the feeling there is a lot of really simple poo poo you don't understand. Who What Now has a new favorite as of 03:22 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 03:20
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death .cab for qt posted:Yes. It's gameplay that wasn't originally designed, and occurs either due to glitches or player creativity. SL1 dark souls runs, taking turns with friends to last longer while at a six star wanted level in GTA, necromancer no-attacking-enemies-only-using-summoned-minions runs in Diablo II, speedrunning games, etc. I don't understand how this definition of "emergent gameplay" is at all interesting or worth talking about when it's this broad.
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May 9, 2015 03:20
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