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quote:Funding period quote:Estimated delivery: Oct 2013 quote:The Deluxe Exalted 3rd Edition will take several months from the closing date to print and ship. I love looking back at this. This schedule allowed NO TIME AT ALL to finish writing the book.
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May 6, 2015 23:31
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Yeah, I recall at the time of the kickstarter it was implied that, while Exalted 3rd wasn't "done," it was certainly in the "rough draft or near-complete rough draft stage." The leak seems to have been a second draft or possibly a final from what people are saying.
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May 6, 2015 23:35
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Ferrinus posted:Ah, but, DID third edition even have an official deadline, or was it always rough guesswork without formal obligation? Nah, third edition never set a line-in-the-sand official deadline, and after the Kickstarter they've been pretty reluctant to even give soft deadlines. All deadlines I know of that emerged after the KS were just playtester or official forum-ite guesswork. That said, the initial estimate was pretty laughably off.
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May 6, 2015 23:47
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From what I understand, the initial estimate was looking roughly accurate (or at least "plus/minus a couple of months" accurate) right up until the writers decided to scrap almost everything and start over because of some core mechanic changes. If you dig back through the kickstarter posts you can see it happen right about where "the book is almost done" backpedals to repeated "chapter X is almost done" updates again. That said, I have no idea why they decided to do that and then slavishly stick to Ex2 Charm formatting, Abilities, BP/XP scaling, etc.
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May 6, 2015 23:56
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ErichZahn posted:
The problem with ignoring leaks is that sometimes you end up ignoring valid comments such as "What does this charm actually do?" or "So how does this work?" or "This charm is a really bad idea and here are reason X, Y, and Z why". This is especially bad when you decide to go with the charm writing style they've chosen.
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May 7, 2015 00:39
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Ithle01 posted:The problem with ignoring leaks is that sometimes you end up ignoring valid comments such as "What does this charm actually do?" or "So how does this work?" or "This charm is a really bad idea and here are reason X, Y, and Z why". This is especially bad when you decide to go with the charm writing style they've chosen. Unfortunately, the writers have repeatedly proven themselves incapable of distinguishing between constructive criticism and personal attacks. More importantly, they believe that they have written some groundbreaking, revolutionary, game system. The suggestion that they've merely produced a game that is a lot of fun to play, but would be even better if it weren't saddled with so much unnecessary baggage from 2e, is more than enough to earn someone the "toxic" label and mark all their future opinions as baseless rants.
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May 7, 2015 12:47
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I think "groundbreaking" and "bogged down with legacy mechanics" are both accurate descriptors of Exalted 3e. I think the fact that both these things are true is the most concise illustration of the game.
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May 7, 2015 16:51
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Attorney at Funk posted:I think "groundbreaking" and "bogged down with legacy mechanics" are both accurate descriptors of Exalted 3e. I think the fact that both these things are true is the most concise illustration of the game.
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May 7, 2015 17:36
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Nessus posted:What about it is groundbreaking? I don't even mean that as a slur - I haven't gone digging through the leak due to a mixture of honesty and sloth, and what I've gathered is mostly that it involves Initative now, and is much smoother-running than 2E's system. These are not trivial achievements, but they're not going to revolutionize the industry (that would require a system that lets you adapt your favorite anime) I've never seen anything like the withering/decisive combat engine in an RPG before.
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May 7, 2015 18:09
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Nessus posted:What about it is groundbreaking? I don't even mean that as a slur - I haven't gone digging through the leak due to a mixture of honesty and sloth, and what I've gathered is mostly that it involves Initative now, and is much smoother-running than 2E's system. These are not trivial achievements, but they're not going to revolutionize the industry (that would require a system that lets you adapt your favorite anime) Totally groundbreaking: One of the devs played some Final Fantasy: Dissidia, did not stop to think about how the computer tracks the constantly changing numbers for you.
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May 7, 2015 18:20
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Attorney at Funk posted:I've never seen anything like the withering/decisive combat engine in an RPG before. The social influence system is also a lot of fun to use, as is (from my secondhand observations) collecting various tiers of craft points by doing odd jobs about town.
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May 7, 2015 18:46
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theironjef posted:Totally groundbreaking: One of the devs played some Final Fantasy: Dissidia, did not stop to think about how the computer tracks the constantly changing numbers for you. I know goons like to keep saying this, but it isn't hard to keep track of your initiative if you aren't terminally ADHD.
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May 7, 2015 19:07
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fool_of_sound posted:I know goons like to keep saying this, but it isn't hard to keep track of your initiative if you aren't terminally ADHD. I need to try a few combats and see. I remember being infuriated at 4e D&D for it's occasional initiative shenanigans, eventually leading to creating a visual aid magnetboard.
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May 7, 2015 19:11
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fool_of_sound posted:I know goons like to keep saying this, but it isn't hard to keep track of your initiative if you aren't terminally ADHD. Agreed. I don't find it any harder to track initiative in 3e than tracking HP in D&D 4e or strain in Edge of the Empire. It's mildly more tricky than static initiative, but that's a really low bar.
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May 7, 2015 19:19
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theironjef posted:I need to try a few combats and see. I remember being infuriated at 4e D&D for it's occasional initiative shenanigans, eventually leading to creating a visual aid magnetboard. Visual aids are a really good idea anyways. I mentioned this before, but a small whiteboard that acts as a score-keeper everyone can see is a really handy thing to have.
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May 7, 2015 20:34
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Bedlamdan posted:Visual aids are a really good idea anyways. I mentioned this before, but a small whiteboard that acts as a score-keeper everyone can see is a really handy thing to have. Or if you're not sitting at a table, a google spreadsheet. Bonus points because you can track motes and stuff on it anyway.
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May 7, 2015 20:37
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Transient People posted:Or if you're not sitting at a table, a google spreadsheet. Bonus points because you can track motes and stuff on it anyway. And current bonuses/penalties, and range bands, and everything else too. Every group should play most games with a white board or spreadsheet. It's almost always helpful, even in simple games.
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May 7, 2015 20:59
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I don't like how they gated high level artifacts off from mortal craftsmen by saying, well haw haw haw only solar exalted can get 69 successes on a single roll, after they invest all of their XP into 100 different charms, instead of just loving gating them. I don't see what advantage making mortal craftsmen theoretically able to make an artifact 5 if they roll all 10s on every die serves.
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May 9, 2015 20:43
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Nihnoz posted:I don't like how they gated high level artifacts off from mortal craftsmen by saying, well haw haw haw only solar exalted can get 69 successes on a single roll, after they invest all of their XP into 100 different charms, instead of just loving gating them, I don't see what advantage making mortal craftsmen theoretically able to make an artifact 5 serves. Don't try to understand anything about Craft. That just leads to madness.
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May 9, 2015 20:44
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Hypothetically it's the same advantage that making a mortal swordsman hypothetically able to punch out Octavian serves, although I for one wouldn't mind the number of craft enhancers dropping by like 75 or 80 percent. If there were basically two major craft roll enhancer per dot of Essence that'd be optimal IMO. Or, uh, maybe one general one per dot of Essence, and one "specific" one that stacked with the general one but that you had to specifically devote to weapons, or to terraforming, or to vehicles, etc.
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May 9, 2015 20:44
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Bedlamdan posted:Visual aids are a really good idea anyways. I mentioned this before, but a small whiteboard that acts as a score-keeper everyone can see is a really handy thing to have. Visual AIDS is what I got when I saw the unformatted pdf with no bookmarks at first. Boomshakalaka!
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May 9, 2015 21:02
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Nihnoz posted:I don't like how they gated high level artifacts off from mortal craftsmen by saying, well haw haw haw only solar exalted can get 69 successes on a single roll, after they invest all of their XP into 100 different charms, instead of just loving gating them. I don't see what advantage making mortal craftsmen theoretically able to make an artifact 5 if they roll all 10s on every die serves. I'd certainly rather have soft gating than hard limits like "Solars can make five dots, Sidereals and Alchemicals can make four, Lunars can make up to three as long as it's made of moonsilver and isn't designed to make life more pleasant."
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May 9, 2015 22:11
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Nihnoz posted:I don't like how they gated high level artifacts off from mortal craftsmen by saying, well haw haw haw only solar exalted can get 69 successes on a single roll, after they invest all of their XP into 100 different charms, instead of just loving gating them. I don't see what advantage making mortal craftsmen theoretically able to make an artifact 5 if they roll all 10s on every die serves. It lets you write more Crafts charms.
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May 9, 2015 22:16
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Rand Brittain posted:I'd certainly rather have soft gating than hard limits like "Solars can make five dots, Sidereals and Alchemicals can make four, Lunars can make up to three as long as it's made of moonsilver and isn't designed to make life more pleasant."
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May 10, 2015 00:16
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Nessus posted:Was... was that ever the case? No, although Solars did have much easier access to making high-end wonders before being several centuries old.
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May 10, 2015 00:20
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Nessus posted:Was... was that ever the case? Don't know about Sidereals and Alchemicals, but that's definitely how it worked for Solars and Lunars. Solars got a Craft charm that lowered Ability prereqs for Artifacts by one across the board, purchasable twice. Lunars got a counterpart in Intelligence that gave them the same benefit, but only once, and only for Moonsilver artifacts. By default, you needed Craft 6 for 4-dot Artifacts, and Craft 7 for 5-dots, so these were the only way to do it before a character's hundredth birthday.
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May 10, 2015 00:24
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Don't know about Sidereals and Alchemicals, but that's definitely how it worked for Solars and Lunars. Solars got a Craft charm that lowered Ability prereqs for Artifacts by one across the board, purchasable twice. Lunars got a counterpart in Intelligence that gave them the same benefit, but only once, and only for Moonsilver artifacts. By default, you needed Craft 6 for 4-dot Artifacts, and Craft 7 for 5-dots, so these were the only way to do it before a character's hundredth birthday. Rand Brittain posted:No, although Solars did have much easier access to making high-end wonders before being several centuries old.
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May 10, 2015 00:27
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Game out yet?
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May 10, 2015 01:13
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Roadie posted:That said, I have no idea why they decided to do that and then slavishly stick to Ex2 Charm formatting, Abilities, BP/XP scaling, etc. Based on hearsay and some stuff Holden might have said sometime I don't know, the reason for this is thus: a) Holden wants character generation to be fast and simple. Therefore, attributes and skills are levelled up at character generation with linear costs. b) Holden wants character advancement to be a slow process, where each new dot feels like a greater accomplishment than the previous one. Therefore, attributes and skills are levelled up with quadratic costs. c) Holden does not consider the potential XP-different between characters resulting from a linear/quadratic-discrepancy a problem great enough to outweigh the benefits of a and b. (Personally, I feel that c outweighs all the proposed benefits. Intentionally creating situations where players can end up hundreds of XP behind others (to take a 2E example) is stupid because it creates situations that can be actively harmful to fun. Like this.)
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May 10, 2015 01:24
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That it's somehow a matter of weighting and preference is just bullshit smokescreen, though. In reality, flat trait costs coupled with scaling training times and the bare fact of having limited XP already accomplishes B), and it'd drat well better since the most important kind of trait in the game is already flat-costed.
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May 10, 2015 01:31
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Also either he or hatewheel is clearly aware of how much of an issue the possible hundreds of XP gap is because one of the possible uses for Solar XP I've heard was giving free Solar EXP to the people who ended up behind due to bad Chargen to catch them up.
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May 10, 2015 01:46
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BP+XP was aggravated by poo poo like Willpower being stupid cheap, right? I think the weaknesses of BP+XP can be limited if the gap between average and optimized characters is small. I just hope there's no disincentive for taking skills at 2.
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May 10, 2015 02:08
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The major problem with BP+XP is BP's were flat cost and XP was exponential. So it made sense to hyper focus with BP and then round yourself out quickly and cheaply with XP in the first few sessions. That way you could match what someone did as a general spread and be around 200xp ahead in only a few sessions.
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May 10, 2015 03:51
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Fans posted:The major problem with BP+XP is BP's were flat cost and XP was exponential. So it made sense to hyper focus with BP and then round yourself out quickly and cheaply with XP in the first few sessions. That way you could match what someone did as a general spread and be around 200xp ahead in only a few sessions.
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May 10, 2015 04:05
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LatwPIAT posted:Based on hearsay and some stuff Holden might have said sometime I don't know, the reason for this is thus: This is just a friendly reminder that Holden's counter argument to BP/XP balance was "I powergamed Nobilis once."
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May 10, 2015 04:26
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That the problem with BP/XP split is a game balance problem, and therefore unsolvable in the same way that e.g. the balance between Archery and Brawl can never quite be gotten right, is among the most pernicious lies told in defense of that unimaginably stupid mechanic.
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May 10, 2015 05:57
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The Anathema crew's getting paid this time, right?
Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 07:29 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 07:19
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Defending the 'feel' of quadratic advancement seems misplaced. It's not a hill I'd want to die on but I'm not sure anything XP related feels like an 'accomplishment' in an RPG. Buying nothing for dozens of games is not something I look forward to. In fact being the jerk who didn't max out BP at char gen is precisely what forces many characters to wait much longer for some advancement than others. The fact that this can cause someone with no familiarity with the system but lots of familiarity with math hours of agonizing analysis seems like it would break both points a and b.
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May 10, 2015 07:30
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ErichZahn posted:The Anathema crew's getting paid this time, right? Nope! http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/474023-state-of-anathema-for-third-edition quote:Just to make it clear, Onyx Path is not responsible for our doings, errors or lapses, as we are not beholden to them. We did not ask for money, and will receive none. In fact, we - as a team - explictly decided not to make this a paid project, so we never had to discuss this with OP.
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May 10, 2015 07:36
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Mendrian posted:Defending the 'feel' of quadratic advancement seems misplaced. It's not a hill I'd want to die on but I'm not sure anything XP related feels like an 'accomplishment' in an RPG. Buying nothing for dozens of games is not something I look forward to. In fact being the jerk who didn't max out BP at char gen is precisely what forces many characters to wait much longer for some advancement than others. The fact that this can cause someone with no familiarity with the system but lots of familiarity with math hours of agonizing analysis seems like it would break both points a and b. The terrible irony is that training times already do this. Like, my character needs a literal four months to bring his Stamina from 3 to 4. Then he'll need 5 to bring his Stamina from 4 to 5, assuming constant training. Meanwhile he earns experience points at a rate that's completely disconnected from both the flow of time and the his personal experience of struggle/education/leisure/whatever, since one session might encompass a single negotiation and fight while another session represents two weeks of getting projects done.
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May 10, 2015 07:44
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