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Cat Mattress posted:Put tall walls around these areas of concentrated poverty, with the US Marines controlling the few remaining access points; randomly bomb and bulldoze some of the buildings just for the lulz, and deny the inhabitants the right to vote. Israel is a small nation, less then ten miles wide at points. America is a very wide nation; we need not build up, when we can build out with 8 to 16 lane highways between developed and undeveloped portions of our urbanities.
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May 9, 2015 23:24
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If Israel's response to violence was normal and level-headed then Ferguson and that one neighborhood in Baltimore would both be bulldozed and replaced with suburbs
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May 9, 2015 23:26
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death .cab for qt posted:If Israel's response to violence was normal and level-headed then Ferguson and that one neighborhood in Baltimore would both be bulldozed and replaced with suburbs What do you think occured to those individuals' parents' and grandparents' neighborhoods? Israel is a young nation and undergoing the troubles of development in a volatile, militantly poor and religious region of the world. They're no Canada, with a safe, stable, and developed America for a neighbor.
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May 10, 2015 00:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:What do you think occured to those individuals' parents' and grandparents' neighborhoods? Israel is a young nation and undergoing the troubles of development in a volatile, militantly poor and religious region of the world. They're no Canada, with a safe, stable, and developed America for a neighbor. Israel's policies are awful no matter where they take place, in terms of morality and pragmatism. For 70 years they've constantly attacked and provoked their neighbours in wars of aggression while ethnically cleansing the native population. They could have had peace with Syria decades ago if they wanted it, but they care more about access to water than they do peace. Same with the Palestinians, except there it's land they're after. They only made peace with Egypt when they got worried that they could get their poo poo handed to them in a future war if they didn't. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 00:49
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team overhead smash posted:Israel's policies are awful no matter where they take place. For 70 years they've constantly attacked and provoked their neighbours in wars of aggression while ethnically cleansing the native population. They could have had peace with Syria decades ago if they wanted it, but they care more about access to water than they do peace. Same with the Palestinians, except there it's land they're after. You want a story of peaceful existance and recognition of Israel by its neighbors? Look at Jordan in '67: fair to decent relations with Israel, backdoor direct communication channels, both nations on the good side of American policy. And you know what the Jordanians did in '67? They still loving asked the UN to move out of their way and invaded Israel in an act of lawless aggression. And you blame Israel for the troubles of Syria's autocracy? What next, the rise of ISIL is the fault of Israel in your mind because those greedy
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May 10, 2015 00:54
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lol at everyone still responding to migf's dumb gently caress posts also lol at everyone emoting their disinterest and continuing to reply to his dumb as gently caress posts Well I got my income tax check in so I'm gonna donate to unrwa, see ya later.
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May 10, 2015 00:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:You want a story of peaceful existance and recognition of Israel by its neighbors? Look at Jordan in '67: fair to decent relations with Israel, backdoor direct communication channels, both nations on the good side of American policy. And you know what the Jordanians did in '67? They still loving asked the UN to move out of their way and invaded Israel in an act of lawless aggression. And you blame Israel for the troubles of Syria's autocracy? What next, the rise of ISIL is the fault of Israel in your mind because those greedy Was this before or after Mossad started assassinating people in their country?
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May 10, 2015 00:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:You want a story of peaceful existance and recognition of Israel by its neighbors? Look at Jordan in '67: fair to decent relations with Israel, backdoor direct communication channels, both nations on the good side of American policy. And you know what the Jordanians did in '67? They still loving asked the UN to move out of their way and invaded Israel in an act of lawless aggression. And you blame Israel for the troubles of Syria's autocracy? What next, the rise of ISIL is the fault of Israel in your mind because those greedy In 67? So you mean when Israel attacked Egypt and lied about it to the world, claiming they were the victims, and Jordan joined in defence of Egypt? Yes, please do bring up the time Israel launched yet another war of aggression, it doesn't undermine your point at all! Also are you a latent anti-semite? I didn't claim Israel were responsible for every possible awful thing to ever happen in Syria, but that's straight were you headed. You seem to just have a knee jerk reaction where you think Israelis are really responsible for a lot of bad things. II mean it's either that or you're a disingenuous idiot. Israel has had the Syrian land for decades. It has had every opportunity to hand it back for peace and several times it has looked very likely to happen, but Israel always refuses to give back the land, instead wanting to give back some other less important combination of land instead. Also Israel probably does have a fair role in the creation of ISIS. A lot of Islamic radicalism is based in anti-imperialism and anti-americanism with support of Israel being one of the most fundamental parts of that. Osama for instance cited the the Palestinian occupation as one of the things that caused him to undertake 9/11. There are a lot of reasons why people become terrorists, but as you bring it up it would be absurd to not mention the role Israel plays in not just conducting terrorism itself but also promoting terrorism throughout the Arab world.
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May 10, 2015 01:59
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team overhead smash posted:In 67? So you mean when Israel attacked Egypt and lied about it to the world, claiming they were the victims, and Jordan joined in defence of Egypt? Yes, please do bring up the time Israel launched yet another war of aggression, it doesn't undermine your point at all! Are you saying that OBL says the jews caused 9/11
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May 10, 2015 02:21
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team overhead smash posted:In 67? So you mean when Israel attacked Egypt and lied about it to the world, claiming they were the victims, and Jordan joined in defence of Egypt? Yes, please do bring up the time Israel launched yet another war of aggression, it doesn't undermine your point at all! You know nothing about '67, do you? You don't recognize the context in which the first wave of air attacks were launched, that two years of cross-border raids from Gaza and the West Bank by PLO militants had killed scores of Israelis, that Egypt was going to launch an attack on Israel planned to set off a few hours after the Israelis struck. That isn't an act of aggression, its self-defence. Quit blaming the jews for the problems of islamists in the modern world, and start blaming islamists and the cultures which foster their creation.
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May 10, 2015 10:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:You know nothing about '67, do you? You don't recognize the context in which the first wave of air attacks were launched, that two years of cross-border raids from Gaza and the West Bank by PLO militants had killed scores of Israelis, that Egypt was going to launch an attack on Israel planned to set off a few hours after the Israelis struck. That isn't an act of aggression, its self-defence. Address by Prime Minister Begin at the National Defense College, 8 August 1982. quote:In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. Wait so why does an Israeli Prime Minister disagree with you?
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May 10, 2015 11:07
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My Imaginary GF posted:You want an apartheid nation, look at Palestine. How many Jews live in Ramallah? How many Arabs live in Jerusalem? Jews seem to be pretty happy living in Palestine, to the point where they're moving there en masse. They even get special privileges there. Al-Saqr posted:I really love when small little racist brains go into active meltdowns like this. The only meltdowns I see here are from people being triggered by MIGF's same old low-effort trolling. It's so samey that I wouldn't be surprised if he was copy-pasting from his own old posts right now, but people continue to get really mad about it???
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May 10, 2015 14:03
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No poo poo living in a war zone like Gaza is worse than aparthead-era South Africa. That's a case for relieving the human suffering there, but it doesn't speak to the causes of the conflict or it being analogous or not. And Jesus gently caress, the Sixth Day War? You don't understand that amassing an army on the border and closing the straits was an act of war? And mentioning Golan without the fact that Assad deciding to genocide his own people derailed the last round of negotiations, or that Hezbollah have been using Shebaa as a bogus pretext for war for the past fifteen years?
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May 10, 2015 14:18
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My Imaginary GF posted:You know nothing about '67, do you? You don't recognize the context in which the first wave of air attacks were launched, that two years of cross-border raids from Gaza and the West Bank by PLO militants had killed scores of Israelis, that Egypt was going to launch an attack on Israel planned to set off a few hours after the Israelis struck. That isn't an act of aggression, its self-defence. Literally just finished reading a pro-zionist account of the six day war. The context was that Israel wanted to grab as much land as possible (As they're tried to do in 1956 and 1948) and were looking for an excuse. This excuse was provided by the closing of the straights of Tiran by Egypt, an action which had little to know actual effect on Egypt but which they decided to wage a war over. There was a prelude of cross border raids from both sides, Israel launching their own attacks - not the one sided aggression that you're inventing. If anything Israel wanted this aggression, purposely pushing to get incidents to happen: "I know how at least 80% of the incidents began there. In my opinion, more than 80%, but lets talk about 80%. It would happen like this: We would send a tractor to plough someplace of no value, in the demilitarized zone, knowing ahead of time that the Syrians would begin to shoot. If they did not start shooting, we would tell the tractor to keep going forward, until the Syrians in the end would get nervous and start shooting. And then we would start firing artillery, and later also the airforce and this was the way it was. I did this and Laskov and Tzur [two previous commander-in-chiefs] did it, Yitzhak Rabin did it when he was there [as commander of the northern district at the beginning of the sixties], but it seems to me that it was Dado, more than anyone else, enjoyed these games." Israel had been told by the USA that based on all the available intelligence and even assuming everything in Israel's favour, there was still no way Egypt were going to attack and that even if that did happen it would just add a few extra days onto the fighting before complete Israeli victory (Something they couldn't afford as if it took them too long to grab all the land they wanted, the UN would come in with a peace resolution.) I also didn't say anything about Jews. Why are you so quick to assume Jews are being blamed. Your latent anti-semitism once again.People are responsible for what they do, but people and the actions they take aren't formed in a vacuum. Israel's occupation and ethnic cleansing of Arabs is a massive massive factor in middle-east relations that has caused a lot of antipathy towards Israel. death .cab for qt posted:Are you saying that OBL says the jews caused 9/11 No, I'm saying that the occupation of Palestine was one of the main reasons OBL gave for justifying the 9/11 attacks.
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May 10, 2015 14:37
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team overhead smash posted:I also didn't say anything about Jews. Why are you so quick to assume Jews are being blamed. Your latent anti-semitism once again.People are responsible for what they do, but people and the actions they take aren't formed in a vacuum. Israel's occupation and ethnic cleansing of Arabs is a massive massive factor in middle-east relations that has caused a lot of antipathy towards Israel. Criticism of Israel is necessarily antisemitic in the eyes of MIGF & co. because their own criticism of Israel's neighbors and captives is based on anti-Arab racism.
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May 10, 2015 14:58
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Kim Jong Il posted:No poo poo living in a war zone like Gaza is worse than aparthead-era South Africa. That's a case for relieving the human suffering there, but it doesn't speak to the causes of the conflict or it being analogous or not. Israel is an apartheid state. Living in West Bank is worse too. I guess you're better off being a non-Jew second-class citizen in the racial hierarchy if you want to make that argument. You can start a justified war. Israel started the conflict, openly taking territory in an invasion. You can debate if it is justified or not, but they were the aggressors. That's a simple fact.
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May 10, 2015 15:20
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team overhead smash posted:Literally just finished reading a pro-zionist account of the six day war. Indeed, and that just further entrenches the US as a friend of Israel. There isnt an outcome where we say "bin laden was right about 9/11, our mistake." The response to terrorism isn't to give in to the demands, or say "well on second thought..." you've got to do the opposite, double down on whatever the terrorists don't like. You've got to make terrorism futile, make it so terrorism de-legitimizes whatever issue the terrorists care about.
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May 10, 2015 15:44
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hakimashou posted:Indeed, and that just further entrenches the US as a friend of Israel. You perennially don't get it do you. How about the iran-contra scandal, reagan sure gave in to a lot of terrorist demands then didn't he. You don't 'double-down' on terrorism to make it go away. If anything that increases the motivations of moderates who, without a reason would never be driven into the arms of extremists and of course creates more opportunities to create propagandistic victories from the actions of curbing it. What do you expect state powers to do in order to curb it anyway? Send in people knocking door to door explaining the virtues of democracy and the evils of terrorism? Ultramega fucked around with this message at 15:58 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 15:53
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hakimashou posted:Indeed, and that just further entrenches the US as a friend of Israel. You say ethnic cleansing is bad, buuuut some terrorists didn't like it. We need to double down. They will see that you're just ethnically cleansing harder, and rationally conclude that it is their fault. Will you please just tell us how you feel about Nazi Germany, because I think you've yet to make a single post that couldn't just as easily justify the Holocaust if you flip a couple of ethnicities. E: Assume they had won the war. You've made it perfectly clear how you don't think losers have rights. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:02 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 15:59
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/04/middleeast/israeli-soldiers-gaza-war-breaking-the-silence/quote:A group of Israeli veterans released testimony on Monday collected from more than 60 soldiers of various ranks who fought in Gaza during the war in summer of 2014. In the report:
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May 10, 2015 16:12
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hakimashou posted:Indeed, and that just further entrenches the US as a friend of Israel. I guess US stopped flooding billions of dollars to Saudi-Arabia, Qatar, UAE, etc. Huh. That seems like it should have made the news.
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May 10, 2015 17:25
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hakimashou posted:Indeed, and that just further entrenches the US as a friend of Israel. I wish the British would have taken your advice and refused to transfer power over to a terrorist insurgency in the Palestinian Mandate.
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May 10, 2015 17:57
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Chomskyan posted:Address by Prime Minister Begin at the National Defense College, 8 August 1982. Because, as a responsible head of state, Begin was interested in peace. The concentrations did not prove that Nasser was about to invade by themselves; the Mossad's intercepts of Egyptian army orders, however, do.
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May 10, 2015 19:16
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Main Paineframe posted:Jews seem to be pretty happy living in Palestine, to the point where they're moving there en masse. They even get special privileges there. The rules say cheerleading is wrong, so we just have to put up with him I guess
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May 10, 2015 19:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Because, as a responsible head of state, Begin was interested in peace. The concentrations did not prove that Nasser was about to invade by themselves; the Mossad's intercepts of Egyptian army orders, however, do. The Mossad probably should have shared this intel with Prime Minister Begin, then. Menachem Begin posted:Who knows if there would have been an attack against us? There is no proof of it.
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May 10, 2015 20:53
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Cat Mattress posted:The Mossad probably should have shared this intel with Prime Minister Begin, then. ...says a politician with a political agenda to push. Note that he does not say he thinks there would be no attack; he says what he does as a good-faith sacrifice towards the cause of peace, a cause which the Palestinians have repeatedly squandered and made mockery of with their terrorist acts over the decades.
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May 10, 2015 20:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:...says a politician with a political agenda to push.
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May 10, 2015 22:18
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My Imaginary GF posted:...says a politician with a political agenda to push. Note that he does not say he thinks there would be no attack; he says what he does as a good-faith sacrifice towards the cause of peace, a cause which the Palestinians have repeatedly squandered and made mockery of with their terrorist acts over the decades. Is there anything anyone could say that your narrative would not be able to somehow accommodate?
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May 10, 2015 22:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:...says a politician with a political agenda to push. Note that he does not say he thinks there would be no attack; he says what he does as a good-faith sacrifice towards the cause of peace, a cause which the Palestinians have repeatedly squandered and made mockery of with their terrorist acts over the decades. so what you're saying is that jews are inherently duplicitous? good lord, man, that's pretty antisemitic
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May 10, 2015 22:43
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Juffo-Wup posted:Is there anything anyone could say that your narrative would not be able to somehow accommodate? V. Illych L. posted:jews are inherently duplicitous Yes, there is. Plenty. But when it comes to Begin's push for peace and reconciliation, one must separate the rhetoric of hope from the facts on the ground.
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May 10, 2015 22:58
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lol your argument is literally "this guy outright lied about their war of aggression not actually being a war of aggression because he wanted people to like him", and base this on evidence that does not, to anyone's knowledge, exist one would imagine that such a motive would be more consistent with "yo we didn't want to attack but you guys kind of forced us into it", but i suppose that the inherent deviousness of the sons of israel got the better of him
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May 10, 2015 23:03
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Based on track record alone I bet I know the answer to this, but are there declassified Israeli intelligence intercepts that validate MIGF's claims?
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May 10, 2015 23:10
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hakimashou posted:Indeed, and that just further entrenches the US as a friend of Israel. So your advice to apartheid South Africa would have been to double down on the apartheid? Maybe hang Nelson Mandela rather than keeping him imprisoned? That'd sure have taught the terrorist ANC what for! Also what happens when both sides are conducting terrorism, as is the case with Israel? Both sides keep on escalating further and further forever. What a mighty vision for peace you have there! Not to mention that negotiating has often brought about the best resolutions. Not just in South Africa but in my country as well with the IRA.
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May 10, 2015 23:15
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Juffo-Wup posted:Is there anything anyone could say that your narrative would not be able to somehow accommodate? Literally nothing that could plausibly happen.
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May 10, 2015 23:54
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team overhead smash posted:So your advice to apartheid South Africa would have been to double down on the apartheid? Maybe hang Nelson Mandela rather than keeping him imprisoned? That'd sure have taught the terrorist ANC what for! Ah, the lovely south africa, a nation currently in the throws of ethnic cleansing. Tell me, why do you want ethnic cleansing in Israel? I certainly don't wish to see it come to pass. And really, wouldn't it be more accurate to state that you want Israel to undergo the transition of Rhodesia? How'd power sharing work out there, again? Further, Israel is not conducting terrorism. Israel is engaged in lawful conduct for a nation-state. The Palestinians who engage in or provide material support for terrorism? They are engaging in an illegal action which rescinds the protections they enjoy of state institutions. Non-state actors have no human rights, relative to state actors. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 00:37 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 00:34
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What is your definition of terrorism?
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May 11, 2015 00:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:Ah, the lovely south africa, a nation currently in the throws of ethnic cleansing. Tell me, why do you want ethnic cleansing in Israel? I certainly don't wish to see it come to pass. What I'm hearing out of this is you're pro South African apartheid? "Ending apartheid in South Africa led to ethnic cleansing, so we have to keep apartheid (implicitly admitted to by your equivalency) in Israel to avoid that fate." You find the current situation in South Africa so distasteful that you'd have preferred if the South African government had crushed and expelled black South Africans and driven them into militarized enclosures? Let's hear more about your opinions on South Africa, I think. They might prove enlightening. Edit: Oh, and in case we missed it, redefining human rights to be about legal state-vs-non-state actors is bullshit - the whole point of defining human rights was we needed a language of rights that went beyond pure legal prescription to capture crimes against humanity that were word-of-law legal. The Nazis violated the human rights of the Jews, they were state actors and the Jews that fought back where non-state actors. The legality of state-vs-non-state action does not directly map to human rights, or else human rights would be exactly equivalent to legal rights. Dolash fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 00:41
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Miltank posted:What is your definition of terrorism? Any illegal action engaged in by a non-state actor designed to provoke a response from state institutions.
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May 11, 2015 00:41
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Dolash posted:What I'm hearing out of this is you're pro South African apartheid? "Ending apartheid in South Africa led to ethnic cleansing, so we have to keep apartheid (implicitly admitted to by your equivalency) in Israel to avoid that fate." You find the current situation in South Africa so distasteful that you'd have preferred if the South African government had crushed and expelled black South Africans and driven them into militarized enclosures? Power sharing, when improperly instituted, leads to failed states. What you wish for Israel is for it to become a modern Angola. What, specifically, should inspire confidence that a one-state solution would not result in ethnic cleansing of Israelis by Palestinians, that Palestinians would not take control of Israeli institutions in order to enrich themselves and their families contrary to established legal precedent in Israel? One-state cannot, will not, ever happen, so why do you continue to insist Israel is an apartheid state?
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May 11, 2015 00:44
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My Imaginary GF posted:Any illegal action engaged in by a non-state actor designed to provoke a response from state institutions. Is there any moral principle at all that is applicable to state actors?
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