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Jarmak posted:The entire basis of the families case is that you're wrong. Do you know what asphyxia is? Do you know what one of the major ways in which Asyphixia can cause you to die is?
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May 12, 2015 21:24
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Lemming posted:What medical condition does beating, stripping, and strapping to a chair help with?
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May 12, 2015 21:24
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hobbesmaster posted:From a list of side effects of severe steroid abuse, right next to each other: Hmmm.... I wonder if these risk factors might have been exacerbated by something? I think that perhaps something like getting the poo poo beat out of him for 20 minutes, being stripped naked, forcefully strapped to a chair, injected with sedatives, and left alone for 4 minutes might have led to those risk factors becoming a bigger issue.
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May 12, 2015 21:27
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Probably Magic posted:Maybe this already got covered, but was there any particular reason why this PD decided to send only one cop to deal with a guy who was clearly on stimulants? Because any time I've seen any footage of someone on drugs getting dealt with, it's usually by a cadre of people who are capable of holding them down. From what I saw of the DA presser, that wasn't addressed since there was no Q&A session. DA Ozanne made his statement and then left. I am not sure we will get satisfactory answers to these questions in the near future.
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May 12, 2015 21:28
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LorrdErnie posted:Do you know what asphyxia is? Do you know what one of the major ways in which Asyphixia can cause you to die is? Asphyxia can lead to a heart attack, this wasn't what was argued by the family's expert
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May 12, 2015 21:29
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Alligator Horse posted:Just watched the live feed from Madison. DA Ozanne is not going to bring charges in the death of Tony Robinson. LorrdErnie posted:Hmmm.... I wonder if these risk factors might have been exacerbated by something? I think that perhaps something like getting the poo poo beat out of him for 20 minutes, being stripped naked, forcefully strapped to a chair, injected with sedatives, and left alone for 4 minutes might have led to those risk factors becoming a bigger issue.
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May 12, 2015 21:30
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Add Wisconsin to the list of states that South Carolina is less racist than. It lets the police apologists sidestep the issue of the unwarranted beating and stripping.
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May 12, 2015 21:34
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Add Wisconsin to the list of states that South Carolina is less racist than. Because I found it crazy anyone would think sedatives are a good idea at that point, and since it is the least objectionable part, the cop apologists latched onto it because that's easier to defend than the 20 minutes of that video where he's beat by a dozen cops.
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May 12, 2015 21:34
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Add Wisconsin to the list of states that South Carolina is less racist than. It is worth pointing out vis a vis the Death in Custody Reporting Act that Wisconsin shares the dubious distinction, along with Arkansas, of being one of only a couple states to begin providing death in custody statistics to the AG only to pull out of the program. They haven't submitted data since 2007. Compare that to South Carolina, which has voluntarily provided death in custody data every year the program has been in place.
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May 12, 2015 21:37
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Lemming posted:It lets the police apologists sidestep the issue of the unwarranted beating and stripping.
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May 12, 2015 21:37
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twodot posted:How so? If everyone was just saying "It's bad for the police to beat someone for 20 minutes, they should face consequences for that action" and didn't mention the sedative, you're saying that police apologists would say "No, it's cool to beat someone for 20 minutes, as long as you sedate them afterwards"? I don't know what would happen if something different had been said, but what was said was that "it's wrong to beat someone, then strip them, then strap them to a chair, inject them with sedatives, and leave them alone for 4 minutes" and what the apologists pounced on was "ah HA you see the sedatives were actually fine! The cops weren't wrong about that!" and then post pages about it to cloud the issue.
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May 12, 2015 21:40
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Lemming posted:I don't know what would happen if something different had been said, but what was said was that "it's wrong to beat someone, then strip them, then strap them to a chair, inject them with sedatives, and leave them alone for 4 minutes" and what the apologists pounced on was "ah HA you see the sedatives were actually fine! The cops weren't wrong about that!" and then post pages about it to cloud the issue.
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May 12, 2015 21:43
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Alligator Horse posted:Just watched the live feed from Madison. DA Ozanne is not going to bring charges in the death of Tony Robinson. I drive past where Tony Robinson was shot every day on my way to and from work. All the people I've seen on Twitter going on about how there will be riots over this apparently think every situation is the powder keg that Baltimore is. I hope someone actually pushes back, though. The protests here died down really quickly after the shooting happened. Personally, I've been trying not to talk to anyone around here about it. The last time I did, I found out one of my coworkers knows the offer who shot Robinson personally, so that wasn't a super fun conversation (it was mostly a lecture on how the officer definitely wouldn't have shot for no reason and therefore we shouldn't jump to conclusions etc etc).
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May 12, 2015 21:43
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twodot posted:How so? If everyone was just saying "It's bad for the police to beat someone for 20 minutes, they should face consequences for that action" and didn't mention the sedative, you're saying that police apologists would say "No, it's cool to beat someone for 20 minutes, as long as you sedate them afterwards"? After actually watching the video I'm not sure what beating we're even talking about it, all I can see is a bunch of cops piled on him trying to pin him down over and over as he resists every time they try to move him from one room to another, I don't see any striking whatsoever. Also after they strip him out of his bloody clothing they immediately cover him with a blanket, which he then defiantly kicks off.
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May 12, 2015 21:44
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Harrow posted:I hope someone actually pushes back, though. The protests here died down really quickly after the shooting happened.
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May 12, 2015 21:44
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Lemming posted:I don't know what would happen if something different had been said, but what was said was that "it's wrong to beat someone, then strip them, then strap them to a chair, inject them with sedatives, and leave them alone for 4 minutes" and what the apologists pounced on was "ah HA you see the sedatives were actually fine! The cops weren't wrong about that!" and then post pages about it to cloud the issue.
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May 12, 2015 21:45
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Alligator Horse posted:The main lessons to be learned from the Death In Custody Reporting Act (DICRA) is that if it costs money to implement, local institutions won't pay out of pocket; if there are funds available but only under certain conditions, only some institutions will take advantage of those available funds; and if the government can find escape clauses for implementing this legislation, they absolutely will do so rather than alienate state and local law enforcement organizations. Your posts are great, thanks for this.
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May 12, 2015 21:45
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Lemming posted:I don't know what would happen if something different had been said, but what was said was that "it's wrong to beat someone, then strip them, then strap them to a chair, inject them with sedatives, and leave them alone for 4 minutes" and what the apologists pounced on was "ah HA you see the sedatives were actually fine! The cops weren't wrong about that!" and then post pages about it to cloud the issue. Yeah when I even brought up the sedative, it was a ninja edit. I do think it's crazy anyone would think that's a good time to give a sedative, but anyone thinking I'm arguing that's the only thing that killed him needs to work on their reading comprehension.
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May 12, 2015 21:45
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Rent-A-Cop posted:As white as Madison is that'd probably result in ethnic cleansing levels of police violence and everyone involved being reelected in perpetuity. It's true. Madison is a really liberal town but it's a white liberal town, and white guilt is the best most can muster.
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May 12, 2015 21:46
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pathetic little tramp posted:Yeah when I even brought up the sedative, it was a ninja edit. I do think it's crazy anyone would think that's a good time to give a sedative, but anyone thinking I'm arguing that's the only thing that killed him needs to work on their reading comprehension.
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May 12, 2015 21:48
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twodot posted:Right, thus the question of why anyone even brought up/defended that concern in the first place. It's just not rhetorically smart to mix strong and weak arguments for the very reasons you bring up, so why are people doing it? The reason isn't that not doing lets apologists side step an argument. I agree, but there are lots of people posting in this thread and there's always going to be a weak argument by someone, somewhere, and it's the only thing that ever gets addressed, and then pages are made about it and blah blah blah. I agree they shouldn't be made in the first place, and it is useful to point out that it's a bad argument, but a lot of the time it becomes the only focus and really drags down the thread. A lot of these situations are very complicated and it's not practical or reasonable to assume that everyone is an expert lawyer in all the case law and a medical expert in all the relevant areas and an expert law enforcement officer who knows about standards and techniques. It's just really obvious when instead of a simple correction or clarification, every one of those issues becomes "ATTENTION EVERYONE: THIS ONE POSTER IS WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING. PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN."
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May 12, 2015 21:51
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pathetic little tramp posted:Yeah when I even brought up the sedative, it was a ninja edit. I do think it's crazy anyone would think that's a good time to give a sedative, but anyone thinking I'm arguing that's the only thing that killed him needs to work on their reading comprehension. Sorry I just didn't think anyone was stupid enough to think it was normal to die from wrestling around on the ground for 20 minutes.
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May 12, 2015 21:51
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Harrow posted:It's true. Madison is a really liberal town but it's a white liberal town, and white guilt is the best most can muster. I live in Madison. There will be a protest, there will be speeches, and then it will get quiet again. Happens with every protest in this town. Of all of the friends I have that go to the protests for this stuff, I can count on one hand how many get involved beyond attending a protest and getting angry on Facebook or Twitter.
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May 12, 2015 21:52
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Alligator Horse posted:Just watched the live feed from Madison. DA Ozanne is not going to bring charges in the death of Tony Robinson. I read the statement regarding the decision. quote:"I conclude that this tragic and unfortunate death was the result of a lawful use of deadly police force and that no charges should be brought against Officer Kenny in the death of Tony Robinson Jr." "The shooting of this unarmed man was tragic and should not have happened. But it was completely legal for the officer to do so, so it's actually okay."
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May 12, 2015 21:53
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Jarmak posted:Sorry I just didn't think anyone was stupid enough to think it was normal to die from wrestling around on the ground for 20 minutes. Jarmak posted:
You literally earlier made a post that said it was plausible that someone kneeling on your back for a while could kill you, so it sounds pretty reasonable actually.
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May 12, 2015 21:56
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UnoriginalMind posted:I live in Madison. There will be a protest, there will be speeches, and then it will get quiet again. Happens with every protest in this town. Of all of the friends I have that go to the protests for this stuff, I can count on one hand how many get involved beyond attending a protest and getting angry on Facebook or Twitter. I've only lived here for a little over a year, but yeah, I can see how that'd be. That's definitely what happened right after the shooting. I don't know. This is all just getting depressing.
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May 12, 2015 21:56
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chitoryu12 posted:I read the statement regarding the decision. The really upsetting thing about this is that the officer drew his firearm as a first response--even before he got visual of the suspect. And then his excuse for discharging his weapon was that, after being struck by the suspect, he was afraid said suspect would knock him unconscious and take his weapon, putting innocents in harm's way. It seems like that hypothetical could have been neatly taken care of if the officer in question didn't pull his firearm as a first response, or if more officers were there to help handle the situation. There was no reason Tony Robinson had to die.
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May 12, 2015 21:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:This situation looks like it would have been better resolved by just leaving the victim alone to chill out with nobody to fight and observing him to make sure he didn't stroke out or headbutt a wall. I think it's pretty safe to say that police feel that they need to force people to submit and be subservient. It's primal, if whoever the police target don't cower or react in a submissive way they feel like it's a physical threat or attack and respond as if it were a physical threat or attack.
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May 12, 2015 21:59
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Alligator Horse posted:The really upsetting thing about this is that the officer drew his firearm as a first response--even before he got visual of the suspect. And then his excuse for discharging his weapon was that, after being struck by the suspect, he was afraid said suspect would knock him unconscious and take his weapon, putting innocents in harm's way. Cops often draw firearms as a first response, you can't charge him with doing that as thats what he was supposed to do. If what he was supposed to do is wrong then sue the department into the ground.
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May 12, 2015 22:00
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Lemming posted:The entire basis of the families case is that you're wrong. No I didn't, I said that's what the family is arguing. Also no, saying someone can be suffocated is not the same as saying its normal for someone to die of a heart attack after what takes place in that video.
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May 12, 2015 22:01
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Jarmak posted:No I didn't, I said that's what the family is arguing. So you're calling the police's defense experts, who agreed that it's very possible for someone to die in that sort of situation, stupid?
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May 12, 2015 22:04
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Lemming posted:So you're calling the police's defense experts, who agreed that it's very possible for someone to die in that sort of situation, stupid? But the pathologists would have found something consistent with that if thats what happened?
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May 12, 2015 22:05
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Lemming posted:So you're calling the police's defense experts, who agreed that it's very possible for someone to die in that sort of situation, stupid? You mean the same experts who said that the autopsy showed no signs of asphyxia?
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May 12, 2015 22:06
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Jarmak posted:You mean the same experts who said that the autopsy showed no signs of asphyxia? Yeah, they said that in this situation there wasn't evidence of it. I said they agreed that it's possible to happen in this sort of situation. But earlier you said Jarmak posted:Sorry I just didn't think anyone was stupid enough to think it was normal to die from wrestling around on the ground for 20 minutes. which implies it's ridiculous to think that people die from "wrestling around on the ground for 20 minutes" when it's actually extremely possible. That viewpoint is clearly naive.
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May 12, 2015 22:08
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hobbesmaster posted:Cops often draw firearms as a first response, you can't charge him with doing that as thats what he was supposed to do. If what he was supposed to do is wrong then sue the department into the ground. I meant that the 'really upsetting thing' in those couple sentences is his justification for use of force, not simply that he drew the firearm as a first response. That's why I put those two sentence back to back. Sorry if I was being unclear. I also included that second group of sentences to point out that this seems to be more than just one officer's poor judgment but a broader issue with the way these situations are handled. I hope that's perfectly clear.
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May 12, 2015 22:08
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Lemming posted:Yeah, they said that in this situation there wasn't evidence of it. I said they agreed that it's possible to happen in this sort of situation. But earlier you said positional asphyxiation is not a normal result of wrestling around on the ground.
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May 12, 2015 22:11
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Jarmak posted:positional asphyxiation is not a normal result of wrestling around on the ground. Maybe, but what the police generally do is not normal wrestling, they have a real habit of putting their knees on the back of people who are on their stomachs, which is a bad idea that can easily kill people, according to the department of justice: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf Some examples: http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/medical-examiner-revises-suspects-death-ruling-to-homicide-kb6q9fe-170871001.html http://thebluepaper.com/article/police-chief-donnie-lee-admits-eimers-died-of-asphyxiation/ Edit: I like this part (that's Sarcasm): quote:■ A suspect is restrained in a face-down Man, people should really just stop resisting!
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May 12, 2015 22:19
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Lemming posted:Maybe, but what the police generally do is not normal wrestling, they have a real habit of putting their knees on the back of people who are on their stomachs, which is a bad idea that can easily kill people, according to the department of justice: According to that white paper its rare and the knees on back is often required, good job quoting out of context though.
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May 12, 2015 22:33
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Jarmak posted:According to that white paper its rare and the knees on back is often required, good job quoting out of context though. You're right, what I said was a bit wrong. What they're saying is that it's a dangerous technique and that its use should be limited as much as possible, and that when used, the cops should pay special attention because there's a good chance they could kill someone doing it. They also go on to say that it kills people more often than even cops think. So, even if it's rare in the sense that it usually doesn't happen, it's not a surprise or unexpected when it does. It doesn't require a freak accident or anything, so it's not unusual for it to happen. Edit: They also make some suggestions about things you can do to make sure someone doesn't die: quote:■ Monitor subject carefully and obtain I wonder what it was that the cops did in that situation that made it less likely the prisoner would survive being attacked?
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May 12, 2015 22:47
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Lemming posted:You're right, what I said was a bit wrong. What they're saying is that it's a dangerous technique and that its use should be limited as much as possible, and that when used, the cops should pay special attention because there's a good chance they could kill someone doing it. They also go on to say that it kills people more often than even cops think. This is some impressive double speak, "It may be a rare event, but its totally normal!" So again, wrestling around on the ground does not constitute "beating someone to death", and death is not the normal result. Also Lemming posted:I wonder what it was that the cops did in that situation that made it less likely the prisoner would survive being attacked? Whatever they did it worked because he didn't die of positional asphyxiation!
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May 12, 2015 23:11
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