Dominions FOUR: Sequel to the Best Game Ever

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Dominions FOUR: Sequel to the Best Game Ever

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Yomi is as it always has been and always will be: A nation with decent troops and amazing battle mages that tries to trick you into taking turmoil for some terrible demons.

# ? May 12, 2015 16:06

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# ? May 28, 2024 16:21

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Make them merely bad instead of a literally anti-designed nation where every asset you have cripples some other asset.

Yomi is pretty ok actually.

# ? May 12, 2015 16:15

I Love You!: Dec 6, 2002

Yomi is poor because they are in EA. Another case of a neat nation that is in the wrong age. They aren't unplayably bad.

# ? May 12, 2015 16:19

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

yeah, you won't exactly find nations that are unplayable

unless it's like, oceania. but that's mostly because it's a water nation.

# ? May 12, 2015 17:30

Have Some Flowers!: Aug 27, 2004; Hey, I've got Navigate...

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Did they ever fix Yomi?

Have won two FFAs with Yomi. Check back through the thread if you want the write-ups on what to focus on (your mages) and what to ignore (your troops).

# ? May 12, 2015 18:07

Have Some Flowers!: Aug 27, 2004; Hey, I've got Navigate...

Let's Talk About poo poo Maps

Hey guys, stop making bad maps! They ruin games, waste hours of time for all involved and burn people out on the game.

It's awesome that we have people who go through lots of work to host games, corral people to play in them and then manage them after they're running. Thanks! But if you do ALL of that work, and then don't take an extra 5 minutes to doublecheck some details of the map settings, all your other time was wasted.

Here's an example of the map in the current Disciples game that's probably going to result in no one wanting to play another disciples game for 6+ months:

Ulm is within 1 or 2 spaces of several enemy capitols in this game. Ulm's 'cap-circle's is overlapping with Ur's. Caelum, a nation with flying raiders, is within 2 spaces of Ulm. This represents a lot of problems for the game.

Here are some ground rules:

Make sure capitols are at least 3 connections from other capitols. This also includes mountain ranges, rivers and by water. Those connections still count for the purposes of ritual ranges and flight, which are important in this game.
It can be tough to accommodate the above rule for water nations, but at least make sure that it starts 2 provinces away from other capitols.
Make sure every starting location has 4+ connections to other provinces. 5+ is ideal, because often one of those connecting provinces will turn out to be a throne.
Try to avoid making maps that have huge clumps of farms or wastelands. If a great map otherwise has a small clump of farms, put it equidistant between many players to at least force some conflict.
Maps should have both vertical and horizontal wrapping. Otherwise players get squished against the map's borders, and alliances/enemies are determined for everyone before the game even starts.
Consider adding 'ports' province connections to connect one side of an ocean with another. Still pay attention to the other rules when you do this, though.
Don't go too overboard with terrain roughness. Tons of impairments to movement can slow down games.
Make sure there's a decent variety of forests, mountains, caves and wastelands. This is important for many nation's strengths and national spells.
15 provinces per player has been a pretty good setting for accomplishing all of the above goals while also driving conflict as soon as possible.
Thrones! 1 throne per player with 60-70% points to win is a good safe bet for games that can end mercifully once one player has made a big lead.

There you have it, a few minutes spent to make sure that 12 people spending hours of their lives over the next few months isn't a total waste of time.

# ? May 12, 2015 18:34

Kitfox88: Aug 21, 2007; Anybody lose their glasses?

A Good Post

# ? May 12, 2015 18:42

I Love You!: Dec 6, 2002

I would also suggest you attempt to at least somewhat account for major disparities in income, though this is much more difficult than the above points. However, if a nation with 9 provinces has significantly more income than a nation with 25 provinces, there are some severe problems with the map, which is another issue this disciples game has.

# ? May 12, 2015 18:42

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

My preferred map is called "random medium".

# ? May 12, 2015 18:42

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

My (Pan's) cap is one province down from that

# ? May 12, 2015 18:45

Have Some Flowers!: Aug 27, 2004; Hey, I've got Navigate...

Enjoy posted:

My (Pan's) cap is one province down from that

My mistake there, though it's still 2 provinces from Ulm because of this wonky connection:

# ? May 12, 2015 18:51

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

And don't loving leave random land connections between non-adjacent provinces for no reason. Ports are okay, but I'm still salty about that one province in garbageidiot that absolutely should not have been adjacent to Niffle's cap.

# ? May 12, 2015 18:51

Sloppy Milkshake: Nov 9, 2004; I MAKE YOU HUMBLE

Have Some Flowers! posted:

Maps

This why I only host games. Making good maps is too hard.

# ? May 12, 2015 19:45

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Is there anyone here who really likes making maps? Maybe someone who does should make 5-10 really good maps and we can just rotate between them for most goon games, maybe adding a few here and there as the old ones grow stale.

# ? May 12, 2015 19:57

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

Speaking of which, I knew I was screwed on turn 1 of KristofferOsterman because I had only three connections, one of which was a throne, and all thrones are level 2 or level 3.

But it took so long to get that game started that I decided not to complain.

# ? May 12, 2015 19:59

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

Have Some Flowers! posted:

Let's Talk About poo poo Maps

Hey guys, stop making bad maps! They ruin games, waste hours of time for all involved and burn people out on the game.

It's awesome that we have people who go through lots of work to host games, corral people to play in them and then manage them after they're running. Thanks! But if you do ALL of that work, and then don't take an extra 5 minutes to doublecheck some details of the map settings, all your other time was wasted.

Here's an example of the map in the current Disciples game that's probably going to result in no one wanting to play another disciples game for 6+ months:

Ulm is within 1 or 2 spaces of several enemy capitols in this game. Ulm's 'cap-circle's is overlapping with Ur's. Caelum, a nation with flying raiders, is within 2 spaces of Ulm. This represents a lot of problems for the game.

Here are some ground rules:

Make sure capitols are at least 3 connections from other capitols. This also includes mountain ranges, rivers and by water. Those connections still count for the purposes of ritual ranges and flight, which are important in this game.

It can be tough to accommodate the above rule for water nations, but at least make sure that it starts 2 provinces away from other capitols.

Make sure every starting location has 4+ connections to other provinces. 5+ is ideal, because often one of those connecting provinces will turn out to be a throne.

Try to avoid making maps that have huge clumps of farms or wastelands. If a great map otherwise has a small clump of farms, put it equidistant between many players to at least force some conflict.

Maps should have both vertical and horizontal wrapping. Otherwise players get squished against the map's borders, and alliances/enemies are determined for everyone before the game even starts.

Consider adding 'ports' province connections to connect one side of an ocean with another. Still pay attention to the other rules when you do this, though.

Don't go too overboard with terrain roughness. Tons of impairments to movement can slow down games.

Make sure there's a decent variety of forests, mountains, caves and wastelands. This is important for many nation's strengths and national spells.

15 provinces per player has been a pretty good setting for accomplishing all of the above goals while also driving conflict as soon as possible.

Thrones! 1 throne per player with 60-70% points to win is a good safe bet for games that can end mercifully once one player has made a big lead.

There you have it, a few minutes spent to make sure that 12 people spending hours of their lives over the next few months isn't a total waste of time.

nice

# ? May 12, 2015 20:02

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Speleothing posted:

Speaking of which, I knew I was screwed on turn 1 of KristofferOsterman because I had only three connections, one of which was a throne, and all thrones are level 2 or level 3.

But it took so long to get that game started that I decided not to complain.

Sorry, I though I marked all the 3 connection provinces as nostart.

# ? May 12, 2015 20:02

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

I try to make good maps but usually that involves generating like 15-20 of them, getting one that appears to be 60-70% ok and then noticing some bad poo poo after the game starts. Also there is always one bad start and that's where jsoh lives.

# ? May 12, 2015 20:05

Have Some Flowers!: Aug 27, 2004; Hey, I've got Navigate...

I'll try and start making a big collection of 'okay' 12 player 15 province-per-player maps with workable starts.

# ? May 12, 2015 20:21

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

jon joe posted:

Is there anyone here who really likes making maps? Maybe someone who does should make 5-10 really good maps and we can just rotate between them for most goon games, maybe adding a few here and there as the old ones grow stale.

I did a shitton of crazy maps, does this count? Most of them are really bad, though.

Could be some other maps from other people are accidentally around, too. The crazier the map, the more likely it was one of mine. The boring ones are so boring, I can't for the life of me tell if I did them or someone else. They're all raw maps by the way, thanks to my minimalistic approach to map making.

# ? May 12, 2015 20:24

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

Go ahead and post criteria for "good" maps and I'll go look up Dom4 map formats. This can't possibly be harder than the CK2 map generator I was working on.

# ? May 12, 2015 20:25

TheresNoThyme: Nov 23, 2012

Please consult the following criteria for a good map:

(seriously I think Have Some Flower's post covers it)

Also, question: Is there any reason not to use dispossessed spirits as patrol spam? I read the manual and don't see anything that would limit their patrol strength but I figured I should check that there isn't some undocumented "undisciplined units get half patrol" rule or something

TheresNoThyme fucked around with this message at 01:24 on May 13, 2015

# ? May 13, 2015 01:20

Boing: Jul 12, 2005; trapped in custom title factory, send help

TheresNoThyme posted:

Also, question: Is there any reason not to use dispossessed spirits as patrol spam? I read the manual and don't see anything that would limit their patrol strength but I figured I should check that there isn't some undocumented "undisciplined units get half patrol" rule or something

I guess you could, but unless you're Lemuria you're summoning 15 of them for 4 death gems, which is alright but it's still nowhere near as good as what Pack of Wolves or Call of the Winds gets you in terms of patrol power. Unless there's another way to get dispossessed spirits that I'm missing. (do undead ~~mages~~ priests in non-Lemuria nations get the option to reanimate them?)

Boing fucked around with this message at 02:07 on May 13, 2015

# ? May 13, 2015 02:03

TheDemon: Dec 11, 2006; _{...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.}

back in my day we had 3-connection caps and we liked it because it meant you weren't screwed with a 2-connection. 4? 5? ridiculous. y'all are spoiled.

# ? May 13, 2015 02:51

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

Experimenting with basic algorithms to province connections:

I think this is decent - the trick will be in making the provinces roughly the same size afterwards. Got an idea though.

# ? May 13, 2015 03:08

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Corbeau posted:

Experimenting with basic algorithms to province connections:

The map generator that comes with the game isn't that bad. You could generate and touch up dozens of maps in the time it would take to code a new generator from scratch.

# ? May 13, 2015 03:10

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

fool_of_sound posted:

The map generator that comes with the game isn't that bad. You could generate and touch up dozens of maps in the time it would take to code a new generator from scratch.

I know it's cliche, but...

e: I think the greater problem is that every time I start on a project like this, I want to just make a Totally-Not-Dominions game that doesn't have to use Illwinter's horrible GUI conventions.

Corbeau fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 13, 2015

# ? May 13, 2015 03:13

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

come back to internet relay chat the demon

# ? May 13, 2015 03:27

jsoh: Mar 24, 2007; O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight

fool_of_sound posted:

The map generator that comes with the game isn't that bad. You could generate and touch up dozens of maps in the time it would take to code a new generator from scratch.

honestly the map generator is loving atrocious and if he builds a better mouse trap bascially everyone will use it

# ? May 13, 2015 03:51

Barono: May 6, 2007; Rich in irony and most satirical

Samog posted:

come back to internet relay chat the demon

Yes, one of us.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:13

Neruz: Jul 23, 2012; A paragon of manliness

Well at the moment all I see is a multicoloured hex grid. Yes making every province a nice even hexagon makes making a balanced map very easy, it also makes the map really boring.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:21

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

That's the reason why each province is assigned more than a single "hex" in the grid: this way the provinces are generated with around 4 to 8 connections (not accounting for water/mountains yet, of course) rather than being a strict 6-connection hexagon. Visual granularity and noise will come with the conversion to pixels.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:29

Neruz: Jul 23, 2012; A paragon of manliness

Corbeau posted:

That's the reason why each province is assigned more than a single "hex" in the grid: this way the provinces are generated with around 4 to 8 connections (not accounting for water/mountains yet, of course) rather than being a strict 6-connection hexagon. Visual granularity and noise will come with the conversion to pixels.

Oh that's what you've done. Alright, that might work.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:38

Archenteron: Nov 3, 2006

No no, make an actual all-hex-based map, 6 connections of everything. Hardcore Wargaming.

e: Then bring in that Aryulm Pride Master Race WW2 mod or something idk

# ? May 13, 2015 05:35

Kitfox88: Aug 21, 2007; Anybody lose their glasses?

give jomon flame corpses with innate flight :japan:

# ? May 13, 2015 06:31

Boing: Jul 12, 2005; trapped in custom title factory, send help

Corbeau posted:

Experimenting with basic algorithms to province connections:

I think this is decent - the trick will be in making the provinces roughly the same size afterwards. Got an idea though.

Using more than four colours? :smug:

# ? May 13, 2015 10:41

Babe Magnet: Jun 2, 2008

Someone make a map that's just one big province in the middle surrounded by like 30 provinces on the outside

# ? May 13, 2015 11:48

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

I've tried, there are actually limits on the amount of province connections.

I was trying to make a map where every capital of every nation in each era was linked to a single land, sea, and cave province so people could do easier battle testing.

Couldn't even manage EA connections without it spazzing out, may remake it with two of each type I guess.

# ? May 13, 2015 12:09

Babe Magnet: Jun 2, 2008

drat.

I was just imaging a level 3 thrones being on that tile and everyone's locked in a stalemate due to not wanting to be the guy who takes the throne first only to immediately be nuked by the entire rest of the game. And then someone does.

# ? May 13, 2015 15:40

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# ? May 28, 2024 16:21

Dirk the Average: Feb 7, 2012; "This may have been a mistake."

Babe Magnet posted:

drat.

I was just imaging a level 3 thrones being on that tile and everyone's locked in a stalemate due to not wanting to be the guy who takes the throne first only to immediately be nuked by the entire rest of the game. And then someone does.

Then the person who spends thirty turns making nothing but Niefels wins. We mocked him. We all mocked him, but in the grim darkness of a map composed of fewer than fifteen provinces he is the Pantokrator!

# ? May 13, 2015 22:16

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