Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

This is some impressive double speak, "It may be a rare event, but its totally normal!"

So again, wrestling around on the ground does not constitute "beating someone to death", and death is not the normal result.

Also

Whatever they did it worked because he didn't die of positional asphyxiation!

They pretty clearly beat him to death, unless you think that he was going to just die at that point no matter what happened. It's true that some pre-existing condition may have made it easier for him to die from the beating, but the cops still beat him until he died of being beaten.

And it's not double speak at all. Again, this post

Jarmak posted:

Sorry I just didn't think anyone was stupid enough to think it was normal to die from wrestling around on the ground for 20 minutes.

very clearly implies that anyone who thinks that someone could die from wrestling is an idiot. It's very possible for it to happen, and skepticism of the cops saying "it wasn't our fault" is totally warranted.

The last part is also results-based thinking, which is stupid. Just because he (probably) didn't die from positional asphyxia doesn't mean they shouldn't have been following those guidelines. Clearly they should have been, so that they would've been able to get him medical attention faster, which could have saved his life.

Edit: I mean obviously they shouldn't have beaten him to death in the first place, but even "maybe we should keep an eye on the guy we just beat the poo poo out of" would have been a step up from what they did.

# ? May 12, 2015 23:20

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# ? May 28, 2024 06:47

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

They pretty clearly beat him to death, unless you think that he was going to just die at that point no matter what happened. It's true that some pre-existing condition may have made it easier for him to die from the beating, but the cops still beat him until he died of being beaten.

And it's not double speak at all. Again, this post

Getting suffocated to death is not a normal part of being wrestled and pinned to the ground, there's a reason you keep saying that they "beat him to death" and its because saying they "wrestled him to death" sounds dumb as hell.

Its possible I could get flattened by an 18-wheeler during tomorrow's commute (and that wouldn't even qualify as rare), it would still be stupid to say that "Death is the normal result of driving to work/school"

Lemming posted:

very clearly implies that anyone who thinks that someone could die from wrestling is an idiot. It's very possible for it to happen, and skepticism of the cops saying "it wasn't our fault" is totally warranted.

The last part is also results-based thinking, which is stupid. Just because he (probably) didn't die from positional asphyxia doesn't mean they shouldn't have been following those guidelines. Clearly they should have been, so that they would've been able to get him medical attention faster, which could have saved his life.

Edit: I mean obviously they shouldn't have beaten him to death in the first place, but even "maybe we should keep an eye on the guy we just beat the poo poo out of" would have been a step up from what they did.

Very clearly says that anyone who thinks what is witnessed in the video (wrestling on the ground) would normally cause death on its own is an idiot, hence my reason for thinking he was blaming the sedative as the intervening act which caused the situation to become deadly. Yes someone choking the person to death during pinning them to the ground is also an intervening act that would cause it to become deadly, but since that didn't happen this is nothing but a stupid derail of you trying to play "gotcha".

# ? May 12, 2015 23:55

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

Jarmak posted:

Very clearly says that anyone who thinks what is witnessed in the video (wrestling on the ground) would normally cause death on its own is an idiot, hence my reason for thinking he was blaming the sedative as the intervening act which caused the situation to become deadly. Yes someone choking the person to death during pinning them to the ground is also an intervening act, but since that didn't happen this is nothing but a stupid derail of you trying to play "gotcha".

Does it really matter if they thought it was going to cause death or not? Beating/wrestling someone for 20 minutes isn't ok, it's also not ok to leave someone you've injured unattended. Lots of people do poo poo that causes harm to others unknowingly, are we supposed to just say "whoops, too bad that happened, back to business as normal!"

I think what Lemming is trying to say is that the people who did this should be held accountable for their mistake and in the future it should affect how police officers interact with people in their custody. Is that an unreasonable thing to ask for?

# ? May 13, 2015 00:00

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

Getting suffocated to death is not a normal part of being wrestled and pinned to the ground, there's a reason you keep saying that they "beat him to death" and its because saying they "wrestled him to death" sounds dumb as hell.

Its possible I could get flattened by an 18-wheeler during tomorrow's commute (and that wouldn't even qualify as rare), it would still be stupid to say that "Death is the normal result of driving to work/school"

Very clearly says that anyone who thinks what is witnessed in the video (wrestling on the ground) would normally cause death on its own is an idiot, hence my reason for thinking he was blaming the sedative as the intervening act which caused the situation to become deadly. Yes someone choking the person to death during pinning them to the ground is also an intervening act that would cause it to become deadly, but since that didn't happen this is nothing but a stupid derail of you trying to play "gotcha".

I keep saying they "beat him to death" because he died as a result of being beaten by the police. Feel free to go back in the thread to find the picture of his beaten face. They punched and hit him in addition to wrestling him to the ground.

That's a bad analogy, it's more like saying "Death is a normal result of a car accident." Most car accidents don't end in death, but it's not unusual or unexpected when they do.

And anybody who looked at the video and thinks that there isn't a decent chance of it ending in death is misinformed. From http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/03/02/amit-bornstein-jail-death-trial-heart/24290307/

quote:

In earlier testimony, officers testified that one had placed a knee in Bornstein's back and at least one more lay on top of him in an attempt to restrain him.

It's been pretty clearly established that this is something that has a chance of killing the person you're restraining. So, I wouldn't trust any random jerkoff who thinks that what happened wasn't potentially deadly and that they shouldn't have kept a close eye on him. It just so happens that he ended up dying of the beating instead of asphyxiation, but either way what the cops did was wrong.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:08

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

ElCondemn posted:

Does it really matter if they thought it was going to cause death or not? Beating/wrestling someone for 20 minutes isn't ok, it's also not ok to leave someone you've injured unattended. Lots of people do poo poo that causes harm to others unknowingly, are we supposed to just say "whoops, too bad that happened, back to business as normal!"

I think what Lemming is trying to say is that the people who did this should be held accountable for their mistake and in the future it should affect how police officers interact with people in their custody. Is that an unreasonable thing to ask for?

The issue is that it wouldn't have caused death if not for his unknown heart condition.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:09

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Jarmak posted:

The issue is that it wouldn't have caused death if not for his unknown heart condition.

Half of the country has a heart condition of one kind or another, this is an amazingly idiotic derail.

If somebody has a pre-existing condition and you beat them up and they die, it's still murder.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:14

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

I keep saying they "beat him to death" because he died as a result of being beaten by the police. Feel free to go back in the thread to find the picture of his beaten face. They punched and hit him in addition to wrestling him to the ground.

That's a bad analogy, it's more like saying "Death is a normal result of a car accident." Most car accidents don't end in death, but it's not unusual or unexpected when they do.

His face looks consistent with wrestling on a hard tile floor, if you think those minor injuries are what someone looks like when they get beaten to death I don't know what to tell you.

If its a bad analogy its because you're much more likely to die from driving then you are from getting wrestled to the ground

Lemming posted:

And anybody who looked at the video and thinks that there isn't a decent chance of it ending in death is misinformed. From http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/03/02/amit-bornstein-jail-death-trial-heart/24290307/

That Article posted:

undiagnosed heart disease � not blunt trauma caused by Monmouth County Jail officers � killed the 22-year-old Marlboro man.

Lemming posted:

It's been pretty clearly established that this is something that has a chance of killing the person you're restraining. So, I wouldn't trust any random jerkoff who thinks that what happened wasn't potentially deadly and that they shouldn't have kept a close eye on him. It just so happens that he ended up dying of the beating instead of asphyxiation, but either way what the cops did was wrong.

Dieing from positional asphyxiation isn't a delayed occurrence, this was actually one of the things the medical examiner testified to as a reason he ruled it out... so no they shouldn't have.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:20

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

His face looks consistent with wrestling on a hard tile floor, if you think those minor injuries are what someone looks like when they get beaten to death I don't know what to tell you.

If its a bad analogy its because you're much more likely to die from driving then you are from getting wrestled to the ground

Dieing from positional asphyxiation isn't a delayed occurrence, this was actually one of the things the medical examiner testified to as a reason he ruled it out... so no they shouldn't have.

You're really bad at quotes, here's a friendly tip: you can press the "Preview Reply" button next to "Submit Reply" to see how the post will come out before posting it for real, and needing to edit it later

Some more quotes from another article http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/03/06/amit-bornstein-trial/24524935/

quote:

Inmates who witnessed the altercation said Bornstein was not resisting and claimed officers punched, kicked and slammed Bornstein's head to the ground, leaving a pool of blood. But that testimony was countered by corrections officers, who said they used appropriate force as Bornstein continued to resist against them, and medical experts who said Bornstein's blunt trauma wounds were not consistent with his head being slammed to the ground.

So either they used appropriate force, but he wasn't hurt by being wrestled to the ground somehow, so his face getting beat appeared magically, or the medical experts are wrong and his wounds were from getting slammed to the ground, or the cops weren't being totally honest and they punched and hit him. Sounds like a beating to me.

And you keep using "wrestling" attempting to muddy the waters. Cops subduing someone is much different from some dudes wrestling, and they admitted they used the knee on the back technique, so it's much more likely.

The guidelines (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf) also mention this point as a predisposing factor:

quote:

■ An enlarged heart (renders an individual
more susceptible to a cardiac
arrhythmia under conditions of low
blood oxygen and stress).

And this result from Eric Garner's death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

quote:

When an ambulance eventually arrived on scene, two medics and two EMTs inside the ambulance did not administer any emergency medical aid[62] or promptly place him on a stretcher.[62] According to police, Garner had a heart attack while being transported to Richmond University Medical Center.[63] He was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital one hour later.[64]

So even if you don't die immediately from not being able to breathe, these guidelines seem to indicate that just because the guy you've restrained doesn't die immediately doesn't mean the danger has passed. You've concluded that as long as they say "hi" afterwords you don't need to keep an eye on them anymore, which directly contradicts these guidelines that specifically say you should monitor them carefully and immediately get them medical attention if they lose consciousness, which the cops obviously didn't do.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:37

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

pathetic little tramp posted:

Because I found it crazy anyone would think sedatives are a good idea at that point, and since it is the least objectionable part, the cop apologists latched onto it because that's easier to defend than the 20 minutes of that video where he's beat by a dozen cops.

Bullshit, you latched on to it and claimed that, because they administered a sedative, the nurses should be fired for malpractice:

pathetic little tramp posted:

Okay then fire the nurses, it doesn't take a genius to know you don't administer powerful sedatives without knowing medical history or are you actually arguing that it is safe and sensible medical procedure to administer potentially lethal sedatives to someone without knowing any of their medical history?

I mean, you realise those nurses are acting in a law enforcement setting, right? The fact that they're nurses doesn't absolve them of the fact that they did something really loving dumb.

When I called you out for being both factually wrong and totally unqualified to make that judgement, you doubled down, as anyone can click the question mark next to your avatar and see. Your lack of shame is loving appalling.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:38

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

You're really bad at quotes, here's a friendly tip: you can press the "Preview Reply" button next to "Submit Reply" to see how the post will come out before posting it for real, and needing to edit it later

Some more quotes from another article http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/03/06/amit-bornstein-trial/24524935/

So either they used appropriate force, but he wasn't hurt by being wrestled to the ground somehow, so his face getting beat appeared magically, or the medical experts are wrong and his wounds were from getting slammed to the ground, or the cops weren't being totally honest and they punched and hit him. Sounds like a beating to me.

What the gently caress? The medical examiners didn't testify supporting your narrative, they testified directly opposing it. That statement is saying there was no evidence they slammed his face into the ground, which is an entirely different thing then superficial injuries caused by wrestling on a hard surface like a tile floor.

Lemming posted:

And you keep using "wrestling" attempting to muddy the waters. Cops subduing someone is much different from some dudes wrestling, and they admitted they used the knee on the back technique, so it's much more likely.

The guidelines (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf) also mention this point as a predisposing factor:

And this result from Eric Garner's death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

So even if you don't die immediately from not being able to breathe, these guidelines seem to indicate that just because the guy you've restrained doesn't die immediately doesn't mean the danger has passed. You've concluded that as long as they say "hi" afterwords you don't need to keep an eye on them anymore, which directly contradicts these guidelines that specifically say you should monitor them carefully and immediately get them medical attention if they lose consciousness, which the cops obviously didn't do.

Garner passed out pretty immediately, and again, the ME testified that the amount of time that had passed since the knee in the back had been so long so as to be another reason to rule out asphyxiation as a cause of death. If the the loving ME is saying "this couldn't have killed him because too much time had passed" then I think its pretty safe to say he no longer required monitoring for that thing.

# ? May 13, 2015 00:54

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

What the gently caress? The medical examiners didn't testify supporting your narrative, they testified directly opposing it. That statement is saying there was no evidence they slammed his face into the ground, which is an entirely different thing then superficial injuries caused by wrestling on a hard surface like a tile floor.

Garner passed out pretty immediately, and again, the ME testified that the amount of time that had passed since the knee in the back had been so long so as to be another reason to rule out asphyxiation as a cause of death. If the the loving ME is saying "this couldn't have killed him because too much time had passed" then I think its pretty safe to say he no longer required monitoring for that thing.

You're not very good at reading, so I'm going to make it clear: the man died as a result of getting beaten by police. The injuries didn't appear out of nowhere. Your dismissing it as superficial injuries is your own slant. My entire point was that either the ME were wrong (I believe them, personally), or the police punched and hit him. Since I think the ME were right, it stands to reason that the police beat him.

From http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/02/06/inmate-death-inside-monmouth-county-jail/22993735/

quote:

Bornstein was not trying to strike any officers, he said. To regain control, Piney said he punched Bornstein at medium to full strength in his "love handle."

I mean, not only do the police fully admit they beat him, other inmates said they watched police beat him, and he has injuries consistent with being beaten, and he died as a result of being beaten, which exacerbated his underlying heart issues.

The point with Garner is that those police tactics are clearly loving dangerous, as has been acknowledged by the Justice Department. Garner didn't die from the asphyxiation directly, he died of a heart attack which was caused by the asphyxiation, most likely exacerbated by underlying heart issues. The Justice Department suggests watching the person who has been subdued or restrained because they might require immediate medical attention. The cops in this case clearly didn't do that, as captured on video. You are arguing that they were justified in doing so, when they clearly were not.

# ? May 13, 2015 01:08

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

You're not very good at reading, so I'm going to make it clear: the man died as a result of getting beaten by police. The injuries didn't appear out of nowhere. Your dismissing it as superficial injuries is your own slant. My entire point was that either the ME were wrong (I believe them, personally), or the police punched and hit him. Since I think the ME were right, it stands to reason that the police beat him.

From http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/02/06/inmate-death-inside-monmouth-county-jail/22993735/

I mean, not only do the police fully admit they beat him, other inmates said they watched police beat him, and he has injuries consistent with being beaten, and he died as a result of being beaten, which exacerbated his underlying heart issues.

The point with Garner is that those police tactics are clearly loving dangerous, as has been acknowledged by the Justice Department. Garner didn't die from the asphyxiation directly, he died of a heart attack which was caused by the asphyxiation, most likely exacerbated by underlying heart issues. The Justice Department suggests watching the person who has been subdued or restrained because they might require immediate medical attention. The cops in this case clearly didn't do that, as captured on video. You are arguing that they were justified in doing so, when they clearly were not.

The ME never states what you say he states, and the Justice department guidelines don't state what you say they state. Positional asphyxiation is not a delayed onset condition, it can get worse after the fact due to swelling in very particular cases but it doesn't suddenly appear in an asymptomatic individual 10 minutes later.

fakeedit: went back and read the article from the link above, it was loving 2 hours between when he had a knee in his back and when they left him alone in the cell.

# ? May 13, 2015 01:35

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

Lemming posted:

You're not very good at reading, so I'm going to make it clear: the man died as a result of getting beaten by police.

I mean, not only do the police fully admit they beat him, other inmates said they watched police beat him, and he has injuries consistent with being beaten, and he died as a result of being beaten, which exacerbated his underlying heart issues.

This is the opposite of what the ME concluded. He fought with the police and he died, but the bruises he sustained didn't cause his heart attack. I guess you could say if the police hadn't used force to get compliance, and had just let him go to his cell when he felt comfortable doing so, he wouldn't have had to exert himself, but that's a little bit different from being beaten to death.

# ? May 13, 2015 02:15

DARPA: Apr 24, 2005; We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

Not too hard, not too soft. The beating was just right.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:13

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

DARPA posted:

Not too hard, not too soft. The beating was just right.

A beating can be both A) Too hard and B) Not the direct cause of someone's death. Why is the anti-police rhetoric so terrible in this thread? The police are bad and shouldn't beat people, but this is just an ineffective argument.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:27

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

twodot posted:

A beating can be both A) Too hard and B) Not the direct cause of someone's death. Why is the anti-police rhetoric so terrible in this thread? The police are bad and shouldn't beat people, but this is just an ineffective argument.

I think the problem I have with your line of reasoning is that a guy gets arrested, then dies shortly afterwards. If that's not the fault of the police we have to assume the guy was going to die on his own regardless of the arrest and fight. Do you believe this guy would have died naturally had the police not done whatever it is they did to him? Like, he would have just keeled over later in the day for no discernible reason?

# ? May 13, 2015 04:32

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20150512_Man_fatally_shot_at_Chinatown_Gateway_Plaza.html?id=303517261

This happened a few blocks away from where I work. When I was younger I'd be like "yeah! action movie stuff happening right next to me!" but now I'm like "that must have been quite an 'argument' to have ended with him dead".

# ? May 13, 2015 04:33

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

ElCondemn posted:

I think the problem I have with your line of reasoning is that a guy gets arrested, then dies shortly afterwards. If that's not the fault of the police we have to assume the guy was going to die on his own regardless of the arrest and fight. Do you believe this guy would have died naturally had the police not done whatever it is they did to him? Like, he would have just keeled over later in the day for no discernible reason?

I have no medical expertise, so I have no idea. With my total lack of expertise, it seems pretty plausible that the sedative is what killed him, but it's an up hill battle no matter what. My whole point is that rhetorically speaking it's really easy to say "Hey maybe we shouldn't injure people in custody unnecessarily", and advocating reform is way easier if you don't over-stretch your position.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:37

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

twodot posted:

With my total lack of expertise, it seems pretty plausible that the sedative is what killed him

On precisely what are you basing this?

# ? May 13, 2015 04:53

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Dead Reckoning posted:

On precisely what are you basing this?

His total lack of expertise, he explained this right there in your quote. Jeeze.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:54

Alligator Horse: Mar 23, 2013

Dead Reckoning posted:

On precisely what are you basing this?

His total lack of experience, you loving ninny. Now stop perpetuating this horrible derail.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:56

tezcat: Jan 1, 2005

twodot posted:

Why is the anti-police rhetoric so terrible in this thread?

It's not "anti-police" rhetoric to demand that police not try to pull a Kelly Thomas on anyone. I'm puzzled how you could even think that.

# ? May 13, 2015 04:59

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

tezcat posted:

It's not "anti-police" rhetoric to demand that police not try to pull a Kelly Thomas on anyone. I'm puzzled how you could even think that.

Saying that the police are systemically doing bad things that need to be addressed is pretty clearly anti-police. If any of the people who are talking about individual instances don't think those are representative of a trend, I've mischaracterized them. If that's the case I encourage them to speak out, but I don't think that has happened.

Dead Reckoning posted:

On precisely what are you basing this?

What happened here? I specifically said I didn't have any sort of solid evidence to back that claim, and I was replying to someone who asked for my opinion on a matter I didn't haven't any solid evidence for. Is this thread where people with lovely rhetoric just post at each other in an unending circle? I don't even care what side of the debate you fall on, there's just no excuse for being so stupid.

# ? May 13, 2015 05:13

ugh its Troika: May 2, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

twodot posted:

Is this thread where people with lovely rhetoric just post at each other in an unending circle?

Yes. Yes, it is.

# ? May 13, 2015 06:03

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

The ME never states what you say he states, and the Justice department guidelines don't state what you say they state. Positional asphyxiation is not a delayed onset condition, it can get worse after the fact due to swelling in very particular cases but it doesn't suddenly appear in an asymptomatic individual 10 minutes later.

fakeedit: went back and read the article from the link above, it was loving 2 hours between when he had a knee in his back and when they left him alone in the cell.

The ME said that he wasn't thrown to the ground and asphyxiation wasn't the cause of death. I never said or indicated that this was wrong. This entire derail started because you said that people who thought you could get killed by "wrestling" were stupid, which is obviously wrong, which was my original point. I went on to further suggest that they didn't keep a good enough eye on him, which was a suggested thing by that document since the person's condition could deteriorate, where they could have gotten him faster medical attention, and they obviously didn't do that.

Dead Reckoning posted:

This is the opposite of what the ME concluded. He fought with the police and he died, but the bruises he sustained didn't cause his heart attack. I guess you could say if the police hadn't used force to get compliance, and had just let him go to his cell when he felt comfortable doing so, he wouldn't have had to exert himself, but that's a little bit different from being beaten to death.

http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/investigations/2015/02/06/inmate-death-inside-monmouth-county-jail/22993735/

quote:

Dr. Todd Wilcox, a national correctional healthcare consultant hired by Monmouth County in the case, believes Bornstein suffered from excited delirium, a condition marked by agitation, combativeness, superhuman strength and high body temperatures.

Ah yes, the ol' excited delirium. That's probably what killed him, and not the police beating the poo poo out of a guy who had an underlying heart condition. I'm sure it was totally unrelated :shepface:

quote:

Theis grabbed the back of Bornstein's jail jumpsuit, jail video showed. Tift said in his deposition that he punched Bornstein in the right cheek. "I felt it was pretty hard," Tift said. "I'm not sure. It didn't seem to have any effect."

Tell me, is punching someone in the face the standard "use of force to get compliance"? Which handbook says "when the inmate doesn't comply immediately, give them the ol' right hook"?

# ? May 13, 2015 06:27

Anora: Feb 16, 2014; I fuckin suck!🪠

Jarmak posted:

The ME never states what you say he states, and the Justice department guidelines don't state what you say they state. Positional asphyxiation is not a delayed onset condition, it can get worse after the fact due to swelling in very particular cases but it doesn't suddenly appear in an asymptomatic individual 10 minutes later.

I'm not commenting on the facts of the case here, but here's some facts you seem to be getting wrong:

swelling doesn't happen immediately, there is a chance that after getting beaten up for a while the lungs or any part of the throat might have swelled just enough to restrict oxygen, or blood flow (which is how you get oxygen to the rest of your body), to cause asphyxiation. You don't need to be completely unable to breath to suffocate, it's why climbing high mountains is dangerous, the air becomes so thin, that even normal breathing may not be enough to fully oxygenate what need oxygen, like your Brain. Think of the "choking game" kids play, they still die even when they don't fully choke themselves out.

Also, only certain Nurses (I think "Registered") can prescribe drugs, "Nurse" nurses can only give them, under doctor's order (which they had in this case apparently). They can't even give out poo poo like Tylenol without a Doctor giving them the go ahead, if they do, they risk their license. So claiming that police are "nurses" does not fly if you're arguing that they are cool to just start sedating people, unless they drag a Doctor to every call.

# ? May 13, 2015 06:36

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Anora posted:

I'm not commenting on the facts of the case here, but here's some facts you seem to be getting wrong:

swelling doesn't happen immediately, there is a chance that after getting beaten up for a while the lungs or any part of the throat might have swelled just enough to restrict oxygen, or blood flow (which is how you get oxygen to the rest of your body), to cause asphyxiation. You don't need to be completely unable to breath to suffocate, it's why climbing high mountains is dangerous, the air becomes so thin, that even normal breathing may not be enough to fully oxygenate what need oxygen, like your Brain. Think of the "choking game" kids play, they still die even when they don't fully choke themselves out.

Also, only certain Nurses (I think "Registered") can prescribe drugs, "Nurse" nurses can only give them, under doctor's order (which they had in this case apparently). They can't even give out poo poo like Tylenol without a Doctor giving them the go ahead, if they do, they risk their license. So claiming that police are "nurses" does not fly if you're arguing that they are cool to just start sedating people, unless they drag a Doctor to every call.

Don't know anything about this case but I'm a registered nurse. We can't prescribe anything, you are thinking of nurse practioners.

Also ativan (lorazepam) can affect respirations, both quantity and quality, especially if it is given iv and if given very fast without diluting it.

# ? May 13, 2015 07:44

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Anora posted:

I'm not commenting on the facts of the case here, but here's some facts you seem to be getting wrong:

Also, only certain Nurses (I think "Registered") can prescribe drugs, "Nurse" nurses can only give them, under doctor's order (which they had in this case apparently). They can't even give out poo poo like Tylenol without a Doctor giving them the go ahead, if they do, they risk their license. So claiming that police are "nurses" does not fly if you're arguing that they are cool to just start sedating people, unless they drag a Doctor to every call.

I'm going to regret jumping into this terrible thread, but several things. Nurse practitioners can prescribe independently, with variations by state in what limitations they have. Registered nurses cannot prescribe and are "nurse" nurses. They risk their license every time they administer a medication regardless of order because administering a med inappropriately even with an physician's order still falls on the nurse. Orders can be written to give nurses tremendous flexibility on when to administer meds if the physician chooses.

2mg IM ativan is a totally appropriate dose, though it wouldn't be my first choice of medication. (That is personal preference and ativan is certainly indicated in the event you need to emergently chemically restrain someone). The patient needs to be monitored after administration, especially for respiratory changes, and any blame on the the nurses should be there, not on the medication. I don't know what protocols are for their situation and I have never worked with the police directly.

Source: ICU nurse.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 08:00 on May 13, 2015

# ? May 13, 2015 07:58

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Police murdered dude, murder is bad, therefore police are bad. That there are people still contesting this point is loving mind boggling.

# ? May 13, 2015 08:48

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

twodot posted:

Saying that the police are systemically doing bad things that need to be addressed is pretty clearly anti-police.

"Reality has a ~~human being~~ ~~librul~~ ~~retard~~ anti-police 'bias'". :rolleyes:

Attorneys Affirm Systemic Abuse by Chicago Police
http://www.projectcensored.org/attorneys-affirm-systemic-abuse-by-chicago-police/

Seven Reasons Police Brutality Is Systemic, Not Anecdotal
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/seven-reasons-police-brutality-is-systematic-not-anecdotal/

Police Brutality and Abuse is no Longer the Exception, It is the Norm
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-brutality-abuse-longer-exception-norm/

Feds Find Shocking, Systemic Brutality, Incompetence In Cleveland Police Department
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/04/cleveland-police-doj_n_6270220.html

Police Have a Much Bigger Domestic-Abuse Problem Than the NFL Does
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/

Police brutality is one of the most serious, enduring, and divisive human rights violations in the United States. The problem is nationwide, and its nature is institutionalized.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/journalism/cases/katrina/Human%20Rights%20Watch/uspohtml/uspo06.htm

Man "this thread" sure is the source of so many things!

The growing criminality of American police is one of the few things that the left and right can agree on in this politically fragmented sports-mind land.

Ravenfood posted:

2mg IM ativan is a totally appropriate dose, though it wouldn't be my first choice of medication. (That is personal preference and ativan is certainly indicated in the event you need to emergently chemically restrain someone).

For a non-conserved citizen, forced medication using an addictive substance without consent should never be ok. "The cops really want to" is not a reason. You arent even allowed to force heart medication on someone who is under locked psychiatric care.

hobbesmaster posted:

Perhaps they should have given him more ativan, sooner.

The only way to ensure the safety of brave heroes is to put everyone to sleep forever.

# ? May 13, 2015 08:50

esto es malo: Aug 3, 2006; Don't want to end up a cartoon

In a cartoon graveyard

The Shortest Path posted:

Police murdered dude, murder is bad, therefore police are bad. That there are people still contesting this point is loving mind boggling.

No you see they only beat and drugged him, and he just died of completely unrelated issues.

# ? May 13, 2015 12:01

peengers: Jun 6, 2003; toot toot

Don't prosecutors frequently go after people for murder when someone dies for whatever reason during the commission of a crime? Classic examples I remember are like someone robbing a liquor store with a gun, the owner dies of a heart attack so the robber is tried for his murder?

IANAL so.

# ? May 13, 2015 12:04

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

The ME said that he wasn't thrown to the ground and asphyxiation wasn't the cause of death. I never said or indicated that this was wrong. This entire derail started because you said that people who thought you could get killed by "wrestling" were stupid, which is obviously wrong, which was my original point. I went on to further suggest that they didn't keep a good enough eye on him, which was a suggested thing by that document since the person's condition could deteriorate, where they could have gotten him faster medical attention, and they obviously didn't do that.

Again, the ME didn't say that, and I didn't say that, and I'm tired on correcting your creative reading of things

Anora posted:

I'm not commenting on the facts of the case here, but here's some facts you seem to be getting wrong:

swelling doesn't happen immediately, there is a chance that after getting beaten up for a while the lungs or any part of the throat might have swelled just enough to restrict oxygen, or blood flow (which is how you get oxygen to the rest of your body), to cause asphyxiation. You don't need to be completely unable to breath to suffocate, it's why climbing high mountains is dangerous, the air becomes so thin, that even normal breathing may not be enough to fully oxygenate what need oxygen, like your Brain. Think of the "choking game" kids play, they still die even when they don't fully choke themselves out.

Also, only certain Nurses (I think "Registered") can prescribe drugs, "Nurse" nurses can only give them, under doctor's order (which they had in this case apparently). They can't even give out poo poo like Tylenol without a Doctor giving them the go ahead, if they do, they risk their license. So claiming that police are "nurses" does not fly if you're arguing that they are cool to just start sedating people, unless they drag a Doctor to every call.

Choking is pretty much the key example of what I was talking about by "specific instances can get worse after" because of the potential for soft tissue damage. He wasn't choked, it was simple chest compression, and they confirmed he was breathing comfortably two hours after the incident. Also, loving again, the ME ruled out asphyxiation partly because too much time had passed with normal breathing for that to be possible,.

# ? May 13, 2015 12:11

Anora: Feb 16, 2014; I fuckin suck!🪠

blackguy32 posted:

Don't know anything about this case but I'm a registered nurse. We can't prescribe anything, you are thinking of nurse practioners.

Okay, could not remeber which nurse type it was that could Prescribe.

# ? May 13, 2015 13:07

UnoriginalMind: Dec 22, 2007; I Love You

Harrow posted:

I've only lived here for a little over a year, but yeah, I can see how that'd be. That's definitely what happened right after the shooting.

I don't know. This is all just getting depressing.

Welcome to Madison. People only think this is an ~*~activist town~*~ because a lot of folks come from smaller towns/rural Wisconsin and ho boy, what's this about a PROTEST? Otherwise we're white as the rest of our state. Oh, and segregated.

I highly recommend finding a regular bar. Sometimes you get extra samples or a free beer to drown the sorrow.

# ? May 13, 2015 16:14

Raerlynn: Oct 28, 2007; Sorry I'm late, I'm afraid I got lost on the path of life.

So I'm just gonna leave this here:

http://www.kmov.com/story/29048813/authorities-investigating-after-video-shows-alton-officer-macing-teens-in-handcuffs

Police macing a pair of teens handcuffed in the police station. So there's that.

# ? May 13, 2015 17:23

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

Raerlynn posted:

So I'm just gonna leave this here:

http://www.kmov.com/story/29048813/authorities-investigating-after-video-shows-alton-officer-macing-teens-in-handcuffs

Police macing a pair of teens handcuffed in the police station. So there's that.

The best part of that story is the police chief admitting that police are out of control. His own officers don't like his reforms and aren't cooperating with him so he'll be fired.

# ? May 13, 2015 18:05

Adenoid Dan: Mar 8, 2012; The Hobo Serenader; Lipstick Apathy

Seems like he has a good incentive to start firing some people for insubordination before he gets fired himself.

Vvvvv

Disciplinary action of some more appropriate kind then.

Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 13, 2015

# ? May 13, 2015 18:13

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

Sheriff can fire his deputies, but a Chief can't just fire cops who are city employees.

# ? May 13, 2015 18:17

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 28, 2024 06:47

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

GlyphGryph posted:

His total lack of expertise, he explained this right there in your quote.

Alligator Horse posted:

His total lack of experience, you loving ninny.

blackguy32 posted:

Don't know anything about this case but I'm a registered nurse.

Ravenfood posted:

I don't know what protocols are for their situation and I have never worked with the police directly.

peengers posted:

IANAL so.

I don't know anything about this case, but I'm a well respected UFOlogist, and I can tell you that all the evidence points to Bornstein being killed by a directed EMF weapon. What did the NSA not want us to know?

peengers posted:

Don't prosecutors frequently go after people for murder when someone dies for whatever reason during the commission of a crime? Classic examples I remember are like someone robbing a liquor store with a gun, the owner dies of a heart attack so the robber is tried for his murder?

Ah, the felony murder rule. One simple trick that lawyers hate! You're also confusing it with tort law and possibly the eggshell skull rule.

Unfortunately, it requires that the perpetrators be committing certain felonies, like robbery or aggrivated assault in your example. Lawful use of force in a custodial setting doesn't qualify, so you'd have to prove both that the officers' force was unlawful, and that the other officers were knowingly aiding a criminal act.

# ? May 13, 2015 19:41

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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