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Fuzz posted:The Empire legitimately believed the DS1 was indestructible, it wasn't just Tarkin. But yeah, he jumped straight there because gently caress these Rebels, they can't do poo poo against our invincible battle station. Eh, I called out Tarkin in particualr since he was in command, and had that "Evacuate? In our moment of  ?" line.
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May 13, 2015 18:52
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Arcturas posted:And then the Empire would have landed a bunch of walkers, like they did on Hoth? There's no indication in ANH that the rebels had a set of transports prepped for evacuation, so they couldn't have escaped like they did in ESB.
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May 13, 2015 19:17
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Bad Decision Dino posted:I would assume they don't, since during the Death Star approach no one is trying to evacuate but instead chooses to backseat drive Luke. It could also be that there are a lot of ships not shown on screen englobing the system to prevent exactly this sort of escape.
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May 13, 2015 19:37
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In fairness, I probably also would not expect that my hundred-mile-wide laser moon was going to be in any sort of danger from anything shy of people kamikazeing capital ships into it en masse. As a counterpoint, I'd still probably park a couple hundred star destroyers around it just to be on the safe side.
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May 13, 2015 20:03
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Madurai posted:It could also be that there are a lot of ships not shown on screen englobing the system to prevent exactly this sort of escape.
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May 13, 2015 20:19
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Bad Decision Dino posted:But then how would they have gotten out after the Death Star was destroyed? One might presume the destruction of the moon-sized command and control node would through an element of confusion into play.
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May 13, 2015 21:40
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Valatar posted:In fairness, I probably also would not expect that my hundred-mile-wide laser moon was going to be in any sort of danger from anything shy of people kamikazeing capital ships into it en masse. As a counterpoint, I'd still probably park a couple hundred star destroyers around it just to be on the safe side. If you are sensible enough to escort the Death Star with a fleet then you are sensible enough not to build a Death Star in the first place. For some reason totalitarian fascist regimes love over the top and completely impractical super weapons that do more harm than good. For some reason totalitarian regimes don't make sensible military decisions. Maybe these two facts are intertwined.
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May 13, 2015 23:02
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Foxtrot_13 posted:If you are sensible enough to escort the Death Star with a fleet then you are sensible enough not to build a Death Star in the first place. The DS do have a use though, albeit not a military one: it's really loving scary. It can get rioting worlds to stand down just by hovering nearby. It's a symbol of the Empire's might and willingness to gently caress you up.
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May 13, 2015 23:56
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Madurai posted:One might presume the destruction of the moon-sized command and control node would through an element of confusion into play.
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May 14, 2015 00:20
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Bad Decision Dino posted:So for this of this discussion, are we disregarding EU, canon or both? Whichever makes a better scenario for the players to screw up.
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May 14, 2015 00:23
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TaurusTorus posted:I think I'm gonna run it that since the Death Star was a classified, newly built station, it wasn't stocked on Star Destroyers. Now that the cat's out of the bag with Alderaan, the empire is rerouting a fleet to garrison the DS, and my players are gonna have to stop it. This seems like a cool mission; best of luck to you and your players!  For extra cool points you could put in a guest appearance of Jan Ors and Kyle Katarn in the Moldy Crow helping the players.
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May 14, 2015 00:28
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Iceclaw posted:The DS do have a use though, albeit not a military one: it's really loving scary. It can get rioting worlds to stand down just by hovering nearby. It's a symbol of the Empire's might and willingness to gently caress you up. What's funny is that by blowing up Alderaan just to prove what an enormous dick he was, Tarkin probably did more to incite rebellion across the galaxy than any number of stirring speeches about freedom could have because if the Empire is willing to just roll into a sector and blow up the planetary equivalent of a nice upper-middle class suburban community on a whim then really, what have you got to lose by rebelling at that point? What's the Empire going to do, blow up your planet twice? Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 00:36
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Was the DS hyperspace capable? I mean it must have been because there's no way they're expecting the mosey that thing across the galaxy on impulse but it's never shown moving through hyperspace. That seems like it would have a ton of practical issues, not the least of which is your massive hyperspace shadow ramming into local debris and poo poo when you come to a halt. Is there anything written about it in the EU?
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May 14, 2015 01:15
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Mendrian posted:Is there anything written about it in the EU? The answer to this question in regards to Star Wars, no matter how obscure or pointless, is always "yes." But to answer your question, yes it was. I don't know if they ever went into any detail in any books or anything but the Death Star was capable of moving (comparatively slowly) through hyperspace. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to terrorize the planet of the week very well.
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May 14, 2015 01:21
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Yeah, the Death Star (and the 2nd one) were hyperspace capable.
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May 14, 2015 01:36
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For what it's worth, the WEG RPG lists the Death Star's hyperdrive as "x4" (x3 for the 2nd DS). A standard hyperdrive is x1, meaning that a journey listed as taking, say, 1 week, takes... 1 week for standard hyperdrives. The DS one would take 4 weeks for the same journey. The Falcon has a .5 hyperdrive and does it in half the time.
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May 14, 2015 03:02
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I think the best thing about Disney's acquisition of Star Wars is that we can finally drop the EU into the garbage where it belongs.
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May 14, 2015 03:33
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Endman posted:I think the best thing about Disney's acquisition of Star Wars is that we can finally drop the EU into the I am excited to see official sources to take it in new, non-terrible directions. They have given me a new hope, as it were.
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May 14, 2015 03:42
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homullus posted:I am excited to see official sources to take it in new, non-terrible directions. They have given me a new hope, as it were. Me too. Everything I've seen so far (REBELS, the new Marvel comics) has been really enjoyable. No stupid EU shenanigans, and nothing written by Kevin J. Anderson, which is always a blessing.
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May 14, 2015 03:49
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I mean, I don't have to think Shadows of the Empire was great literature to appreciate FFG including Starvipers and Dash Rendar in X-Wing or...where did Gladiator Star Destroyers come from, anyway? Point is, I appreciate that FFG's approach to the EU has been "pick out some stuff we like, largely ignore the rest" instead of just "throw it all in the trash, original movies ONLY" Also I'm going to reserve any potential excitement over Episode 7 and on until after it's out and been reviewed. Rebels is good though. Tell me more about the comics.
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May 14, 2015 03:54
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Endman posted:I think the best thing about Disney's acquisition of Star Wars is that we can finally drop the EU into the garbage where it belongs. You always could. The way canon worked before was a lot like it works now. Edit: Also yeah FFG has basically no stance on the new canon, which owns.
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May 14, 2015 04:03
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Kai Tave posted:I mean, I don't have to think Shadows of the Empire was great literature to appreciate FFG including Starvipers and Dash Rendar in X-Wing or...where did Gladiator Star Destroyers come from, anyway? Point is, I appreciate that FFG's approach to the EU has been "pick out some stuff we like, largely ignore the rest" instead of just "throw it all in the trash, original movies ONLY" Yeah, I agree with picking out the cool stuff. I also love having Jan & Kyle in the X-Wing game, and the HWK-290 in the RPG, but I can do without 99% of the EU just fine. As for the comics, my favourite one so far is the Princess Leia comic series. The art has a sort of charming simplicity to it, and it has a great deal of character. The just plain Star Wars branded comic is also really good. All the characters look and speak like they're straight out of the movies. It has that great Original Trilogy feel to it. I'd say the Darth Vader comic is probably the weakest, but that's mostly because Darth Vader is a difficult character to pull off, especially when you're trying to give him some emotional depth beyond choking people.
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May 14, 2015 04:04
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alg posted:You always could. The way canon worked before was a lot like it works now. But now it makes nerds even more cross, which is just fantastic. 
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May 14, 2015 04:12
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Endman posted:I think the best thing about Disney's acquisition of Star Wars is that we can finally drop the EU into the garbage where it belongs. Man...I really really really despise the attitude of casual hatred toward the old EU stuff. Some people really enjoyed it (like myself), and the whole feel of "god it was all such unredeemable trash" just kinda stings. Plus, an assload of FFG's stuff is drawn from old EU sources.
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May 14, 2015 04:21
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jivjov posted:Man...I really really really despise the attitude of casual hatred toward the old EU stuff. Some people really enjoyed it (like myself), and the whole feel of "god it was all such unredeemable trash" just kinda stings. Plus, an assload of FFG's stuff is drawn from old EU sources. I am sorry. Sorry that your opinion is so wrong. Please step into the trash compactor where you belong. Right this way sir, mind the Dianoga. I would like to include Wraith Squadron in my 1% of EU things that aren't garbage, though.
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May 14, 2015 04:26
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Also if your original comment was complaining about WEG material you can throw yourself in the trash. West End Games contributed a ton to Star Wars and Star Wars gaming
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May 14, 2015 04:29
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jivjov posted:Man...I really really really despise the attitude of casual hatred toward the old EU stuff. Some people really enjoyed it (like myself), and the whole feel of "god it was all such unredeemable trash" just kinda stings. Plus, an assload of FFG's stuff is drawn from old EU sources. I'm sure theres something good in the huge amount of EU that was produced. On the other hand you have EU.jpg:  Every time I'm told something cool about it, it turns out with a little digging its right next to the worst thing ever. I mean its fine to enjoy it and even enjoy the worst parts about it but if I get to have a star wars where not everyone in the galaxy knows or is saved by Luke/Leia/Han I'm pretty happy. kingcom fucked around with this message at 04:34 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 04:32
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Endman posted:I am sorry. Well, there is some hope for you yet. Seriously though, I'll freely admit that there were some real stinkers among the old EU (Crystal Star, Glove of Darth Vader, I'm looking at you)...but I would hold that the majority of it is decent enough pulp sci-fi/fantasy/adventure fare. One of these days I'll post pics of my book collection over in the EU thread. I own almost all of the old EU. I'm just missing young adult stuff and a handful of comics.
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May 14, 2015 04:33
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kingcom posted:I'm sure theres something good in the huge amount of EU that was produced. On the other hand you have EU.jpg: All you're showing me is a  idea for a cybernetics junkie.
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May 14, 2015 04:34
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Kai Tave posted:What's funny is that by blowing up Alderaan just to prove what an enormous dick he was, Tarkin probably did more to incite rebellion across the galaxy than any number of stirring speeches about freedom could have because if the Empire is willing to just roll into a sector and blow up the planetary equivalent of a nice upper-middle class suburban community on a whim then really, what have you got to lose by rebelling at that point? What's the Empire going to do, blow up your planet twice? Dunno about you, but Alderaan was asking for it. Perhaps Tarkin was being a Jacobin and killing off the nobles planet. Also if we go by the silly eu, the planet was Klendathu with a huge bug army poised to conquer the galaxy which means Palpatine did nothing wrong again.
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May 14, 2015 04:36
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alg posted:Also if your original comment was complaining about WEG material you can throw yourself in the trash. West End Games contributed a ton to Star Wars and Star Wars gaming Nah, WEG stuff is fine. I don't like their ideas behind the structure of the Imperial Army, but that's because I prefer the idea of legions of stormies, but d6 Star Wars is still a really solid RPG experience. Mostly I was commenting on all the EU reasons behind the Death Star not arriving with a fleet in ANH. That said, I should already be in the trash compactor, since I maintain that the Phantom Menace videogame is one of the best Star Wars videogames of all time. 
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May 14, 2015 04:36
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jivjov posted:Well, there is some hope for you yet. I'm being deliberately hyperbolic with most of my statements. In reality I own the Thrawn Trilogy, the Hand of Thrawn books, all the X-Wing books, I Jedi and Shadows of the Empire and I enjoyed all of them most of the time. The NJO books I read were horrible poo poo though, and I think Planet of Twilight might be one of the worst books I've ever read.
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May 14, 2015 04:39
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Endman posted:I'm being deliberately hyperbolic with most of my statements. In reality I own the Thrawn Trilogy, the Hand of Thrawn books, all the X-Wing books, I Jedi and Shadows of the Empire and I enjoyed all of them most of the time. The NJO books I read were horrible poo poo though, and I think Planet of Twilight might be one of the worst books I've ever read. Honestly I think the biggest problem with NJO was the inconsistency inherent with having so many different authors. I think that if they had had the 5 "tentpole" hardcovers all written by the same author, and emphasized the fact that those 5 novels were the only things you "had" to read, but then had all the other books be ancillary plots (Kinda how big comic book events work, now that I think about it); the whole thing would have gone over a whole lot better. That said, I enjoy far more of NJO than I dislike. There was an NJO-era PbP that ran for a couple weeks before fizzling out that I was really enjoying. Hopefully it comes back, or someone else runs with that concept.
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May 14, 2015 04:45
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The problem with Star Wars EU (and I don't really mean anything specifically but just the whole concept of an EU) is that at its core Star Wars is a story about heroes. This leads to writers taking the heroes we know and jamming them into as many stories as possible. And when those heroes just can't be jammed into any more stories, they don't make up heroes from whole cloth, they take minor characters and turn them into heroes (Porkins should not have a Wookiepedia page this long: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jek_Tono_Porkins). And then we try and weave everything back together which ends in bizarre stuff like the second death star computer actually being an IG-88 assassin droid (but not the one we see in Episode 5, no, it's way more complicated than that). Then there's the whole thing where the Republic has stood for tens of thousands of years as a basically stable entity, and then you've got a 200 year period where we just go back and forth between an Empire and Republic with endless war. And then it turns out actually the Republic has been at war basically always. There's just too much stuff.
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May 14, 2015 04:53
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jivjov posted:Well, there is some hope for you yet. I'm going to disagree without a trash compactor analogy and say that I think part of the problem with a lot of the EU stuff is a result of the writers missing the Star Wars tone and as a result we get, I dunno, racist space lizards who destructively upload people into their technology like something out of Rifts or the Yuzhan Vong or however it's spelled, and on the other side of the coin you get people who think "oh yeah I totally get Star Wars no problem!" and then they come out with the Sun Crusher ("it's like the Death Star but it's a starfighter and it's eleventy billion times more powerfuler and stronger and it blows up stars") or that dude with lightsabers for knees. Occasionally you'd get someone like Aaron Allston who actually seemed to get Star Wars, some of the guys writing the comics, and the video games certainly had their moments, but I don't think I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater by saying that there are more than a few stinkers in the morass of Star Wars EU. I'll even say that I think stuff that's generally enshrined like the Thrawn trilogy isn't actually as good as people make it out to be. (This doesn't get into the real stupid poo poo that arose as a result of people needing to codify every single line of dialogue ever uttered in the movie and spin elaborate backstories to explain that, for example, Grand Moff Tarkin has a disease that makes him stink, so when Princess Leia said she recognized his stench what she actually meant, you see, is that) edit; oh and don't forget that Star Wars: Force Unleashed is 100% canon according to George Lucas!
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May 14, 2015 04:55
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I think the thing I hated the most about the EU was the weird creepy fan-fiction-esque way the writers paired up all the characters and named their kids and poo poo. I don't want to read your poo poo fanfiction where Luke meets Mara and they have a LOVELY WEDDING and then have FORCE BABIES I mean seriously what the gently caress. On the other hand, I'd love to read about a squadron of random washouts whose mascot is an X-Wing-flying Ewok. That seems fun and a bit silly, and that's what Star Wars is all about.
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May 14, 2015 05:01
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I like the idea of there being multiple different ways to interpret "what is Star Wars" though. Part of the fun, to me at least, is that there are so many different styles of story in the Star Wars universe. Zombie horror, detective noir, straight action adventure, kaiju attack...all sorts of genres all in the same universe. If every Star Wars tale had the same campbellian archetype-laden, heroic adventurous tone...I think the universe would feel too samey and restricted.
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May 14, 2015 05:03
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Mara Jade is such a bad character and a fantastic example of why people badmouth the EU.jivjov posted:If every Star Wars tale had the same campbellian archetype-laden, heroic adventurous tone...I think the universe would feel too samey and restricted. This is the problem. Its not the genre of stories people hate. Its the same 5 characters made over and over and inserted into absolutely terrible narratives that people dont like.
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May 14, 2015 05:03
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I agree that the Thrawn Trilogy isn't nearly as good as you'd expect from the praise it receives. I like it, but it's above-average at best.
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May 14, 2015 05:04
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Endman posted:I think the thing I hated the most about the EU was the weird creepy fan-fiction-esque way the writers paired up all the characters and named their kids and poo poo. I don't want to read your poo poo fanfiction where Luke meets Mara and they have a LOVELY WEDDING and then have FORCE BABIES I mean seriously what the gently caress. This is actually a super-good point that I had rattling around in my head but couldn't articulate very well, the whole "Anakin Solo" thing got really old really fast. Also: kingcom posted:Mara Jade is such a bad character and a fantastic example of why people badmouth the EU. It's funny because of all the things you could point to that are super dumb by EU standards I always felt like Mara Jade was maybe the least dumb. Like okay, she's a hot redhead who falls in love with Luke Skywalker after trying to kill him, it is very, very "what I wrote in my 11th grade Star Wars fanfic," but the concept behind the character, the scalpel to Darth Vader's hammer that Palpatine sent on secret murder missions, doesn't feel at all out of place to me. The execution may not have hit the mark, but at least I can give credit for trying as opposed to something like the Sun Crusher which is dumb from the outset. jivjov posted:I like the idea of there being multiple different ways to interpret "what is Star Wars" though. By the same token I think too many people tapped to write for Star Wars went into it trying to be too clever and it didn't serve them very well. It's like that old saying about learning how the rules work before you start breaking them.
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May 14, 2015 05:10
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