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One genre of video games that doesn't get a lot of love are board games. Well, other than strip mahjong games, of course. They're just not very sexy no matter how awesome the computer game versions of 1830, Kingmaker, and Civilization are (not that Civilization; in fact there were problems since the board game predated Sid Meier's game by more than a decade). Video games based on board games are a bit bigger in Japan with several long running series. The most difficult board game to effectively translate to a video game is also one of the simplest: go (or igo if you're in Japan). Go originated in China roughly around 2000 BCE and the rules haven't changed significantly in millennia (essentially tweaking the scoring over the past few centuries to even out the first player advantage). A lot of people consider it to be the greatest, most challenging game in the world. And now I'm going to teach you the rules. I hope you're ready because this is super hard: 1. Players alternate placing black and white stones down at the intersection of a grid. 2. If you completely enclose a player's stones, you take them off the board. 3. The game ends when both players pass their turns, usually because there's no play where their stones won't be threatened. 4. The score is determined by how many empty spots a player completely encloses, minus the number of stones their opponent captured. That's it. From those rules, a huge amount of complexity emerges. In fact, go has been the classic game where a skilled AI has been the most difficult to create. A typical board is 19x19 and even if you reduce that search space to just accepted, viable plays, it makes chess look like tic-tac-toe. Chess typically will have less than ten viable moves per turn; in the early game go can have closer to a hundred. A human being thinking in broad abstracts can simplify and react to that; a structured computer program has a great deal more difficulty with the exponential growth of possibilities. It's only recently that go AI has reached the point where chess AI was in the 70's. Despite that, there were several go games created for the Famicom. One of them is especially significant and shook the foundations of the entire video game industry. None of the games are something that I'd say are must plays even for fans of go, but at the same time they're significant and worth taking a look at. Now I should say going in, I'm terrible at go. I enjoy playing it but I'm not much better than just pushing pieces around. In the screenshots I'm posting you're going to see that I've made some huge blunders. So if I can beat one of these games on their default settings then it's especially bad:  Igo - Kyuu Roban Taikyoku was designed by Bullet Proof Software and is significant for several reasons. It was the first go game created for consoles. Far more importantly, it's the only Famicom game that Nintendo president Hiroshi Yamauchi ever played. It cemented the relationship between Nintendo and Bullet Proof Software that became extremely important a few years later when BPS snatched the rights to Tetris from Atari's grasp. As you can see from the picture, the board this game uses is 9x9 instead of the usual 19x19. Smaller boards like that are used to help people learn to play go. They also help the AI by drastically reducing the search space for moves. I completely crushed the AI in this game almost effortlessly, despite making a stupid move on the last turn that cost me several points. It took about five to six seconds between moves to decide on a play. There aren't any variable AI settings in this game, you can just give it a handicap or take a handicap yourself (a handicap in go means placing several stones before the game starts).  Igo Shinan is the first in what is essentially the Madden of Famicom go games. Hect released one of these games a year right up to the death of the system. "Shinan" means "instructor" and that should tell you the focus of this game. It's less about playing go against your Famicom and more about teaching people about the game. There is no AI here. Instead there's a set of 63 pre-programmed matches. You can watch the matches play out, but the real meat of the program is the tutorial modes where the game asks you what move you think it should make. There's options to pick from two move, from five moves, or from any possible move. Any possible move isn't great because, as noted, there can be dozens of good moves available depending on how you want to play and guessing exactly what the original player was thinking is annoying. OTOH, the quiz of which of two or five moves is best is a pretty cool thing for a light weight like me. And when you play that mode, you get your choice of whether you should figure out what black or white should do so it kind of doubles your playing options. This isn't something I'd go out of my way for, especially if you don't already know a bit of about go, but it's an interesting compromise for the system's capabilities. I know my instincts aren't great when the correct answer in the five option quiz is always my second choice and usually the move it makes a turn or two later. I got 38% on the five option quiz so at least I'm better than random guessing.   And now we hit the main event. Hayauchi Super Igo is the first full fledged go game on the Famicom. The board isn't reduced and the goal of the game is to climb a ladder of opponents. I suspect that it may be based on a comic or cartoon since there's a cartoony guy on the cover and the opponents all seem to be characters, but I'm not sure on that front. I was playing white in that screenshot (it didn't give me a choice; I'm trying to play black with no handicap in the majority of these). The AI is competent at basic moves, but it strikes my amateurish eyes as very limited. It focused on single areas and consolidation of territory and relied on responding to my moves. There seemed to be no grand strategic view. It also seems to have real trouble telling when a group of stones are dead, a situation where a set of stones can be captured with the opponent unable to do anything about it. It kept building and consolidating structures that were closed off. The only real trick in this game is that there's a thirty second timer on player moves and if you don't play then it's an auto-forfeit. Think too long about whether to defend or attack and it's game over. It's a really terrible way to lose a game that you're 200+ moves into. There are a lot of options in this game including having a smaller board, a choice of handicaps, and how long the timer goes for. But it's still not a solid game.  We're back to Hect again with Igo Meikan. "Meikan" in this case means "directory" which should tell you that once again this is a catalog of games where it quizzes you on what move you think should be played. The two choice mode has been removed this time so your options are five choices or any place. They also greatly reduced the number of games you can watch; it's just 42 in this edition, though these seem to be professional matches rather than tutorial ones. Otherwise it's indistinguishable from Igo Shinan. This time out I got 54% on the quiz so my skills are improving!  Yet another Hect game is up next with Igo Shinan '91. Here's where the series goes full Madden on us. Last time I said that they greatly reduced the number of matches you could watch play out. This time there's 110 of them. There are very slight graphic and audio differences this time out, though you'd only notice if someone put the screenshots right above some brief text describing the games. Beyond that, it's exactly the same as the previous version. Back down to 38% again. I couldn't get into this guy's head at all.  Next is Famicom Igo Nyuumon from obscure publisher I'Max. This one is a full featured go program once again. There's three modes of play here. The first is a tutorial mode designed to teach people who have no idea how to play go. Since the tutorials are all in Japanese, you probably wouldn't get much use out of that. The second is just playing go; I'll get back to that in a second. The final mode offers a series of simple go problems for players to solve as a kind of quiz. It's a bit more directed than the problems in the Hect games, but they're still not very well presented. The AI in this game has a bit more strategic sense than the AI in Hayauchi Super Igo, but it's still pretty basic (I think that's the screenshot where even someone who doesn't know much about go can see how bad I am at it). It overlooks threatened groups a lot of the time, prefers to consolidate territory rather than attack, and is generally reactive. The same timer to forfeit rule is in place for this game, though you are given a full set of options before the same and you can turn it up to three minutes.  Okay, from this point out everything remaining are Hect's Shinan games so feel free to skip ahead. I'm doing the remaining three for completeness sake, but I'll spoil things right now: they're all the same games with different matches being played out in them. So, Igo Shinan '92 brings us another round of matches to figure out what the masters played. This time there's 122 matches and they replaced the traditional Japanese music with Debussy in the menus.  What does Igo Shinan '93 bring to the table? If you said, the exact same thing as the previous four games in the series only with a different set of matches to watch, you win! Honestly, I'm a bit worn down by this series at this point so you're getting screen shots from the beginning of games.  Well, I'm sure they had some big surprise in store for Igo Shinan '94, right? Well, surprise! The series ends its run on the Famicom with the exact same game. However, the series did continue on to the Super Famicom so there's even more of them out there if you really want them. And that's it. Sadly, there aren't any go games for the Master System or the PC Engine so these are all the 8-bit go games out there. The Hect series is actually kind of interesting if you're already into go, but absolutely pointless if you're not. If you want to learn how to play go, well, download gl-Go and a front end since it can help you understand the game. If you absolutely must play it against a Famicom, I guess Igo - Kyuu Roban Taikyoku is your best option. It's not smart and it's not a full board, but it's the one to play if you just want to learn how things work. Take it away, Famicom Go Master!  TWIST ENDING! There's exactly one go game for the Megadrive, so I thought I might as well show that one in brief as well. The catch here is that it's also one of the most expensive Megadrive carts out there. Go-Net is a play by modem go game for the Megadrive.  That's all you get to see of it. It requires the modem and the other player to have that and the $5000 cart so it's safe to say that it doesn't get a lot of play these days. There's no AI, it's strictly a board for people. (For my next threat, I will systematically review all of the 8-bit shogi games. Because I have a death wish.) Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 23:30 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 23:26
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Actually, there's a second Go game for the Genesis, a port of the PC service Sansan (which is still running.) The Sansan Genesis game is exceptionally rare as well, so much so that Sega of Japan and most catalogs don't even list it as a release. It also features a local 2 player mode.
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May 14, 2015 23:40
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That's awesome, always wanted to pick up a Go game. Looking forward to Shogi. Been meaning to learn how to play that someday, but I guess I should finish learning mahjong first...
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May 14, 2015 23:42
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I wanted to say that because of poking through all of those go games, I have finally found a reason to buy a Virtual Boy. Except I still won't because they're just too fragile to pay the price for them.  I think I'm going to give this one a proper write up because it's so weird, but let me put it this way: H.P. Lovecraft's Half-Minute Hero 3D.
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May 15, 2015 00:19
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I want a Virtual Boy for display at least. It looks neat.
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May 15, 2015 00:37
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Is there a way to fix a wobbly N64 control stick, or do I have to buy a "new" controller?
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May 15, 2015 00:44
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Nintendo Kid posted:PlayStation Quake II removes some of the PC levels and modifies the others, in part to support a revised saving system where you could only save between levels and at special "checkpoint" corridors. Also, the order of some PC levels are changed. N64 Quake II has entirely new levels compared to the PC version Nintendo Kid posted:Quake for Saturn uses a different engine than Quake for PC (It uses Slavedriver, an engine invented for PowerSlave/Exhumed) and is missing a few levels. Nintendo Kid posted:Also funnily enough Quake the original was never successfully ported to PlayStation, either by the special console Slavedriver engine used for Saturn Quake and PowerSlave (which was also used for PowerSlave on PlayStation) or from a port of the real Quake engine as on the N64. PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Quake 2 64 has entirely different levels and music (which I don't think was by Aubrey Hodges but is in the same ballpark).
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May 15, 2015 00:52
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Codiekitty posted:Is there a way to fix a wobbly N64 control stick, or do I have to buy a "new" controller? You can buy a new stick?
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May 15, 2015 00:58
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Codiekitty posted:Is there a way to fix a wobbly N64 control stick, or do I have to buy a "new" controller? You can do a thing with the spring, stretching it out or replacing it with a stronger one to make it a bet better. edit: Found a guide Karasu Tengu fucked around with this message at 01:11 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 01:07
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Received my Toro adapter for the Dreamcast. I have it working great through SCART->Framemeister... What do I need to get VGA working on it? I have a VGA cable lying around, but my TV doesn't accept it. Do I need a VGA->HDMI converter, which then plugs into the Framemeister? I'm pretty dumb.
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May 15, 2015 01:38
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Commander Keenan posted:Received my Toro adapter for the Dreamcast. I have it working great through SCART->Framemeister... What do I need to get VGA working on it? I have a VGA cable lying around, but my TV doesn't accept it. Do I need a VGA->HDMI converter, which then plugs into the Framemeister? You don't need a converter. That's why you got a Toro. It does that for you through SCART. Just hook it up through SCART to the Framemeister and set for VGA and the other part of the Toro combines the sync that the Framemeister will understand. Read the manual, link at the bottom of this page: http://www.beharbros.com/#!toro/cfom
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May 15, 2015 01:49
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Commander Keenan posted:Received my Toro adapter for the Dreamcast. I have it working great through SCART->Framemeister... What do I need to get VGA working on it? I have a VGA cable lying around, but my TV doesn't accept it. Do I need a VGA->HDMI converter, which then plugs into the Framemeister? If you're already doing SCART(RGBs) out directly from the Dreamcast, that's essentially VGA(RGBHV) anyways?
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May 15, 2015 01:49
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 Holy poo poo, is this ground up N64 analog stick? Can anyone vouch for this part, or the seller? http://www.ebay.com/itm/X2-Controll...=item58aa933b99
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May 15, 2015 01:58
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Kazvall posted:If you're already doing SCART(RGBs) out directly from the Dreamcast, that's essentially VGA(RGBHV) anyways? The toro can output 30khz over scart which isn't standard but the mini takes it. flyboi fucked around with this message at 02:04 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 01:59
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Codiekitty posted:
Ground up stick plus human filth.
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May 15, 2015 02:01
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Got it. Thanks guys!
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May 15, 2015 02:08
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flyboi posted:The toro can output 30khz over scart which isn't standard but the mini takes it. Oh, cool. So you're getting 480p then, over scart?
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May 15, 2015 02:13
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Kazvall posted:Oh, cool. So you're getting 480p then, over scart? Yes. But that only works when tied into upscalers like the XRGB-Mini. It's not intended for televisions.
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May 15, 2015 02:17
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Codiekitty posted:
The rumor is that they were supposed to put a lubricant in there but had to remove it at the last minute. I'm not sure I buy that, but the durability problems with that stick should have been obvious to any testing.
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May 15, 2015 02:17
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Random Stranger posted:
And from then on all the mahjong ones too right? Ha ha. Interesting to see how various companies tried to get around AI limitations with Go. Speaking of mahjong-ish stuff does any one know if there are any more old tile matching games outside of the Shanghai series by Activision? Because goddamn did I love me some Shanghai II on my old Mac (and dislike the short time limits thrown on every modern browser based one).
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May 15, 2015 02:57
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Codiekitty posted:
Do a line of it and you'll see scanlines irl [please don't do lines of n64 stick dust]
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May 15, 2015 02:58
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Codiekitty posted:
Mostly it's sweat and dead skin, don't worry. It's always been interesting to me that Nintendo decided to use optical encoders like a ball mouse instead of the more standard potientimeter style that Sony used, or even a hall effect sensor like Sega put in the Saturn 3D and Dreamcast pads.
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May 15, 2015 03:03
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So, I told Kazvall I'd let him know how the Fix-It Felix Jr. repro I bought plays, and I figured I may as well just mention it in the thread. It's obviously not ACTUALLY retro, since it's a homebrew of a leaked flash game tie-in to Wreck-It Ralph, but it's on Genesis, so I'm running with it. Frankly, it's pretty drat fun. It's a really basic arcade-style score game, modeled very loosely on 80s games. I really get sort of a Donkey Kong Jr. vibe from it. You move from window to window, repairing the damage Ralph's done to the place. Movement is simple UDLR controls, and you mash A to repair the windows. Some windows take 2 taps to fix, others take 1. Initially, the only obstacle is Ralph throwing bricks. Then you have to contend with potted plants on the windows preventing you from moving vertically on those windows. Open shutters on windows prevent you from moving horizontally. Then birds start flying across the screen too, giving you one more thing to dodge. If there's more than that, I don't know what, because I failed out. The obstacles that prevent movement are designed to give something of a puzzle atmosphere, to ensure that you have to specifically take certain paths, and to force you into dangerous positions where you might be trapped briefly. There are also pickups in the form of pies that the residents of the building put on the windowsill for you, which appear to make you invincible for a few seconds. All in all, it's a great time-waster game. I only have two beefs. One's a physical manufacturing fault: The label on the game was already peeling off when I got it. I'll fix that with a bit of glue and it'll be right as rain. The other, though, is a bigger problem in my book. When I finally failed out, I got a high score. On attempting to enter my initials, the game crashed when I hit end. I don't know if that's a problem with the physical cart, the game when running on real hardware, or the game itself even when emulated. I've reached out to the developer on that one, and will probably reach out to Windy Gaming as well, since that's where I bought it. Here's a video somebody else made of the gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXPI1TjAAD4
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May 15, 2015 03:09
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Elliotw2 posted:Mostly it's sweat and dead skin, don't worry. Carbon pots wear out way too fast. Imagine subjecting a carbon pot joystick to Mario Party spinning. Hall effect sensors and optical encoders are both durable, but the former requires more support hardware. When you're manufacturing at Nintendo's scale, cents-per-controller matters.
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May 15, 2015 03:24
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Turbinosamente posted:Speaking of mahjong-ish stuff does any one know if there are any more old tile matching games outside of the Shanghai series by Activision? Because goddamn did I love me some Shanghai II on my old Mac (and dislike the short time limits thrown on every modern browser based one). If you're willing to expand the concept of tile matching a bit, I really like Flipull. It's an exciting cube game. The idea is you launch tiles at a stack of tiles and it wipes out any matching tiles it collides with. When it hits a tile that doesn't match, the mismatched tile bounces out and the launched tile takes its place. The stages are shaped so that you can bounce a launched tile around a bit to hit the stack from the top or side. It was originally an arcade game, but a Famicom version exists and there's a clone of it called Puzznic which did come out in the US. G-Prime posted:So, I told Kazvall I'd let him know how the Fix-It Felix Jr. repro I bought plays, and I figured I may as well just mention it in the thread. It's obviously not ACTUALLY retro, since it's a homebrew of a leaked flash game tie-in to Wreck-It Ralph, but it's on Genesis, so I'm running with it. My local arcade has an unofficial Fix-It Felix Jr. machine done up in a Donkey Kong style cabinet. It's just a flash game running on a PC with the inputs wired up to standard arcade controls. The unfortunate concession to the modern world is that it uses an LCD screen.
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May 15, 2015 03:27
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Random Stranger posted:If you're willing to expand the concept of tile matching a bit, I really like Flipull. It's an exciting cube game. The idea is you launch tiles at a stack of tiles and it wipes out any matching tiles it collides with. When it hits a tile that doesn't match, the mismatched tile bounces out and the launched tile takes its place. The stages are shaped so that you can bounce a launched tile around a bit to hit the stack from the top or side. It was originally an arcade game, but a Famicom version exists and there's a clone of it called Puzznic which did come out in the US. Hmm sounds like this would solve some of the puzzle game kick I've been on lately. The only other thing I've been able find in this category is Ishido: Way of Stones, where you fill in a grid by placing as many tiles you can with matching color or symbols next to each other.
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May 15, 2015 04:01
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Random Stranger posted:If you're willing to expand the concept of tile matching a bit, I really like Flipull. It's an exciting cube game. The idea is you launch tiles at a stack of tiles and it wipes out any matching tiles it collides with. When it hits a tile that doesn't match, the mismatched tile bounces out and the launched tile takes its place. The stages are shaped so that you can bounce a launched tile around a bit to hit the stack from the top or side. It was originally an arcade game, but a Famicom version exists and there's a clone of it called Puzznic which did come out in the US. It's also available on Taito Legends for PS2/PC/Xbox under the name Plotting. It's one of a number of arcade games I remember playing at the nearby liquor store as a kid but had nearly forgotten about until I saw it and heard the music when I picked up the Legends compilations.
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May 15, 2015 04:07
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Codiekitty posted:
Stickdust  . I cleaned both of mine out a few years back and they were full of plastic powder in the base of the stick. Works a lot better just from clearing all that out, incidentally.
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May 15, 2015 06:05
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flyboi posted:Game Cube or Playstation 2 should be able to read them. Thank you! Do you happen to have any first hand knowledge about DVD+Rs working on the phat vs. the slim?
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May 15, 2015 10:22
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flyboi posted:Remembered I'm going on vacation this weekend so made the videos now. Not the best encodings, my capture card sucks. You can really notice the difference in how the mini handles scaling when you force a static layer (scanlines) over the image on 480i. If you look where lots of motion happens it will cause your eyes to almost spasm while 240p is very stable. Overall the 480i image is always moving around so it does wear your eyes out quicker and is entirely unplayable with scanlines enabled. My eyeballs must be garbage tier. Oh wait, they are actually. I could probably get better image quality by getting new glasses.
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May 15, 2015 12:18
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Any good U.S. Mahjong games that teach you how to play mahjong and aren't just the match in variety (much as I love that)?
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May 15, 2015 12:20
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FIRST TIME posted:Thank you! Do you happen to have any first hand knowledge about DVD+Rs working on the phat vs. the slim? I've never modded a slim but the phat has no issue with them.
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May 15, 2015 15:05
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G-Prime posted:Fix-It Felix Jr.  It satisfied that sort of retro high score itch while kind of feeling like an older game.
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May 15, 2015 15:19
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I didn't read any of that Go post, but in glad someone wrote it. Also played Fix It Felix on a can at PAX East last year and had the high score all weekend. It's a good first level that you keep playing again and again without any change.
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May 15, 2015 15:31
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Not 100% retro but the Nintendo E3 announcement trailer did something everyone thought would never happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8z3d9iuWTQ They acknowledged the Virtual Boy's existence and even said the games were good 
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May 15, 2015 15:42
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Has anyone had their Blinking Light Win shipped yet?
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May 15, 2015 16:05
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The_Frag_Man posted:Has anyone had their Blinking Light Win shipped yet? I haven't. I requested that they give a status update two or three days ago. A little bit of transparency would be nice.
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May 15, 2015 16:12
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Harlock posted:I got to play it on an actual cabinet and really liked it. Not going to play it unless its got 8-bit graphics. Those lines look way too smooth to be 8-bit.
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May 15, 2015 16:37
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CountingWizard posted:Not going to play it unless its got 8-bit graphics. Those lines look way too smooth to be 8-bit. They're 8-bit, but the hardware is just a computer and an LCD screen so there's no scanlines. Looks like SUPER clear like you would get with a framemeister, or one of those retro-style indie games. It looks good and is hella fun. My friend's arcade has one of these and I have the High Score on it! Not the world record (but close) but the world record dude is some sperg that goes around and sets the high score on every machine in america. It's definitely worth some plays, and once you get the hang of it you can p much play for as long as you want (unless you hit the kill screen). In other news, my bookshelf re-organization is making great progress!     The next steps are to actually alphabetize the games (I had to move them around a lot so I saved that for later) and start printing out art for the UGCs and jewel cases. My Atari games couldn't fit so those are in storage until I move into a new place next year. There are also a few more cases I need to get (gameboy, 4 disc ps1, etc) but it's coming along nicely. The shelves are deeper than I'd like, so I'm going to throw some 2x4s back there to push the games forward while keeping them straight. I'm installing some floating shelves nearby for gunpla, and then re-ordering my console setup, and then I should be good for a while. (who am I kidding)
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May 15, 2015 17:11
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 18:48 |
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CountingWizard posted:Not going to play it unless its got 8-bit graphics. Those lines look way too smooth to be 8-bit. It's definitely 16ish. Like I mentioned, ported to Genesis.
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May 15, 2015 17:11
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