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The thing about hostages is they're accessible to their captors... that'd make them imminently vulnerable to any more split second decisions.
tooterfish fucked around with this message at 01:32 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 01:29
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Hexel posted:Stannis is marching on Winterfell Technically, I guess. He's marched a few hundred yards from Castle Black. I wouldn't be surprised if he forgets his keys or gets waylaid in some no-name hamlet and the actual assault on Winterfell doesn't begin until the middle of season 6. In the meantime we'll get 15 filler episodes where Sam reads books, the Boltons side-eye Sansa, and Daenerys settles a few sick leave disputes for the Meereen Sanitation Workers Local 804.
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May 15, 2015 01:40
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tooterfish posted:The thing about hostages is they're accessible to their captors... that'd make them imminently vulnerable to any more split second decisions. True enough, though Joffrey really wasn't going around killing that many people, and Tywin would've reached King's Landing well before Robb did. Plus, Robb had no way of knowing the execution was impulsive. His father did confess to treason, and as Ned himself established, treason means you lose your head. edit: Rewatched the execution: Nothing about it would suggest to anyone not in the know that it was an impulsive or particularly cruel decision. Joffrey was well within his rights to call for execution instead of exile. IncendiaC posted:It's worth noting that everyone except Joffrey wanted to have Ned confess and sent to the Wall. I bet Littlefinger didn't mind 
Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 01:55 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 01:42
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It's worth noting that everyone except Joffrey wanted to have Ned confess and sent to the Wall.
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May 15, 2015 01:46
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Dick Jones posted:Daenerys settles a few sick leave disputes for the Meereen Sanitation Workers Local 804. Which she will gently caress up and people will die needlessly. Though that bit was implied by "Daenerys (does anything)" I suppose.
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May 15, 2015 02:44
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Bobo the Red posted:And, if protecting the establishment was a real motivation, would established lords (many, presumably, with extended families) not find it a very dangerous precedent to allow someone to kill his way through an entire line of succession? It's not like he assassinated them. They already know that lesser nobles might rise up against them; Robert's Rebellion didn't change that.
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May 15, 2015 02:45
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I might be dumb for thinking this but I keep thinking that Podrick is going to put those skills he has to use on on Brienne. I honestly wouldn't be surprised.
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May 15, 2015 04:03
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I really expected that Ramsay would promise his sadist mistress that they'd be able to torture Sansa together once she was his wife.
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May 15, 2015 04:33
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IncendiaC posted:It's worth noting that everyone except Joffrey wanted to have Ned confess and sent to the Wall.
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May 15, 2015 04:54
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JT Jag posted:Even Littlefinger probably would have preferred that Ned be sent to the Wall. Then he could have had him killed quietly and discretely, and in the meantime he could have moved in and consoled poor Cat. If the entire thing was staged to let Ned off the hook and send him to the wall, why was the Kings executioner there, with Ned's sword in hand for an extra ironic and somewhat personal seeming touch? Watch the scene again. Everyone up on the steps is stunned, freaks out, and tries to talk Joffrey out of it. Except for 
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May 15, 2015 05:20
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Bobo the Red posted:His father did confess to treason
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May 15, 2015 05:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The entire Lannister story surrounding his supposed treason is completely ridiculous. It's basically evidence that Ned's claims are true and that his confession was coerced. But he did commit treason! He disobeyed Robert while drafting a document that would give him immense powers, and he did try to remove the rightful heir to the throne. He incited rebellion against the king. Ned was trying to seize control of the crown and hand it to Stannis, a process that would've resulted in the deaths of the king, the heir to the throne, their sister, and the dowager queen. Yeah, the bit about seizing kingship was a stretch, but it wasn't actually all that much of a stretch.
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May 15, 2015 06:02
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Bobo the Red posted:But he did commit treason! He disobeyed Robert while drafting a document that would give him immense powers, and he did try to remove the rightful heir to the throne. He incited rebellion against the king. Ned was trying to seize control of the crown and hand it to Stannis, a process that would've resulted in the deaths of the king, the heir to the throne, their sister, and the dowager queen. Yeah, the bit about seizing kingship was a stretch, but it wasn't actually all that much of a stretch. Remember that scene where Cersei rips up the final will and testament of Robert Baratheon? Remember that? Remember how Joffrey isn't the rightful heir? Remember that?
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May 15, 2015 07:00
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The entire Lannister story surrounding his supposed treason is completely ridiculous. It's basically evidence that Ned's claims are true and that his confession was coerced. Yes but most of Westeros is aware of the rumours about Cersei and many of them seem pretty convinced of it. Look at the way the peasants in King's Landing react to the Lannisters when we see breif interactions with them on the streets. It harks back to what Varys (and many other people in this thread) have been saying. It's not about legitimacy or birthright or any of that crap, it's about perceived power. The Lannisters, with their immense wealth and military might, have that in spades. The public narrative about Ned is totally ridiculous, but it saves face for the Lannisters and no one can really say anything because ol Joff will just have them decapitated.
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May 15, 2015 07:03
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hiddenmovement posted:Remember that scene where Cersei rips up the final will and testament of Robert Baratheon? Of course I remember she ripped it up. Cersei ripped up a document Ned Stark wrote (which we know doesn't actually reflect Robert's last will and testament) because he has come stomping around King's Landing trying to have her children deposed and executed. She has no duty to respect the words traced by a traitor, and that is what Ned Stark was. Ned had a few chances to get out clean and tell Robert, but he did not take them, and since he did not take them, his actions became treason: He thought he knew the King's children were not his own, but did not tell him. He conspired to help these children and their cheating, incestuous mother escape the king's justice. He willfully disobeyed his King's dying request, particularly egregious because he did so while drafting a document that gave him extraordinary powers. He let Renly leave after Renly spoke quite openly of overthrowing the monarchy before Robert was even dead. Just so, so much treason, against a king he claimed to love, at that. We happen to know that he was right in doubting the lineage of the children, but that did not matter any more, because Robert accepted them as his, and never disavowed them. . The children were born in wedlock, and Robert never suspected he was not their father in 10+ years. He claimed them as his own. If he wanted to disavow one or all of them, he could have, both as the father, and probably as the king. He would likely have done it in a heartbeat if Ned told him to. Ned didn't, and Robert died with Joffrey as his heir, and once Robert died, there was no one left to disown Joffrey. He was the rightful heir. Not rightful in some bloodline sense, but rightful in the legal, actual sense of it: the acknowledged eldest son. Some other guy can't come in after the fact and go "nah, you're not, because your hair's not the right color" or even "your mom says you're not". The moment was gone. Joffrey was king. I liked Ned a lot. But he hosed up real real big.
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May 15, 2015 07:39
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She ripped up a signed will and testament. Signatures imply that someone has read this document and endorses its contents. They are sacrosanct. It specifically names Eddard as regent and protector of the realm. It doesn't matter that Eddard tweaked the phrasing slightly. It wouldn't matter if Reek had scrawled it in his own feces. Robert had signed it. It's the Kings orders. To not follow them is treasonous. How do you think signed legal documents work? Or presidential orders for that matter? Do you think people get to turn around and say 'Nah that woman that my dad left all his money to is totes a gold digging baddo and I get it instead' in the face of a signed will and testament?
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May 15, 2015 08:22
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hiddenmovement posted:She ripped up a signed will and testament. Signatures imply that someone has read this document and endorses its contents. They are sacrosanct. It specifically names Eddard as regent and protector of the realm. It doesn't matter that Eddard tweaked the phrasing slightly. It wouldn't matter if Reek had scrawled it in his own feces. Robert had signed it. It's the Kings orders. To not follow them is treasonous. Comparing a letter drafted by, carried by, and exclusively witnessed by its sole beneficiary with other legal documents, especially modern ones doesn't make much sense. What Cersei did would be treason, if the king decided that it was. Fortunately for her, at that point, Joffrey was king and did not seem to mind. Moreover, Robert's tenure as king ended when he died. Yes, he made Ned Protector of the Realm, but once he died, Joffrey doesn't have to actually listen to that (especially because Ned is trying to kill him). It's not like a dying king can just make an eternal declaration. The issue I have with thinking Ned had the right to depose Joffrey after the fact is that it requires a ridiculous system to exist we've seen no evidence of. If you can just accuse someone's mother of infidelity to strip them of title, with no evidence, after their father dies, then why hunt the Targaryens down? Easier to just claim that the kids were obviously not the Mad King's because they were sane. Ned died? Well, obviously his kids aren't his, look how 'on their necks' their heads are, take Winterfell from them. It would be ridiculous. Ned had his chance, he blew it, and played right into Littlefinger's hilarious trap in doing so. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 09:20 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 08:35
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Ned's greatest mistake was not taking Renly up on his offer. He stubbornly insisted that Stannis, someone he owed no allegiance to whatsoever, had to be the one to take the throne, when another Baratheon brother had forces in Kings Landing that could have helped them right then and there. Work out the dynamics of who succeeds after you have the Lannisters in your custody, don't depend on a single piece of paper and the fickle allegiance of the town guard.
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May 15, 2015 08:50
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JT Jag posted:Ned's greatest mistake was not taking Renly up on his offer. He stubbornly insisted that Stannis, someone he owed no allegiance to whatsoever, had to be the one to take the throne, when another Baratheon brother had forces in Kings Landing that could have helped them right then and there. Work out the dynamics of who succeeds after you have the Lannisters in your custody, don't depend on a single piece of paper and the fickle allegiance of the town guard. Well, the trouble there is that Ned, having rejected Robert's entire line, absolutely did owe Stannis his loyalty, because to Ned, Stannis was the King. Letting Renly seize the throne and figure it out later would've simply put someone with a weaker (nonexistent) claim to the throne on it. The problem wasn't just 'Lannisters on the throne', it was more "not the one correct person on it". Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 09:19 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 09:16
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I think the most hilarious thing about Joffrey cutting Ned's head off was that it probably wouldn't have happened if someone had taken the time to tell Joffrey why he should be pardoned. Nobody ever loving educated Joffrey on anything, he was free to roam the castle, killing kittens while his mom told him how great he was. His mom just told him "Ned should be pardoned and sent to the wall, make it happen boy" and then Joffrey is like "my mom has the soft heart of a woman, OFF WITH HIS HEAD!" Every bad decision Joffrey's ever made can be traced back to poor education and even worse preparation for his job. Even Tywinn didn't wanna do it, he just sent him to bed with some milk of the poppy.
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May 15, 2015 09:33
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JT Jag posted:Ned's greatest mistake was not taking Renly up on his offer. He stubbornly insisted that Stannis, someone he owed no allegiance to whatsoever, had to be the one to take the throne, when another Baratheon brother had forces in Kings Landing that could have helped them right then and there. Work out the dynamics of who succeeds after you have the Lannisters in your custody, don't depend on a single piece of paper and the fickle allegiance of the town guard. Yeah but that harks back to the moral absolutism of Ned. He insists that Stannis succeeds the throne because thems the rules, practicality be damned. Bobo the Red posted:Comparing a letter drafted by, carried by, and exclusively witnessed by its sole beneficiary with other legal documents, especially modern ones doesn't make much sense. Strange, Ser Barriston seemed to think it carried a fair bit of weight Bobo the Red posted:Moreover, Robert's tenure as king ended when he died. Yes, he made Ned Protector of the Realm, but once he died, Joffrey doesn't have to actually listen to that (especially because Ned is trying to kill him). It's not like a dying king can just make an eternal declaration. He's not making an eternal declaration. He is making one in regards to his next of kin, and only his next of kin. This is something that has been done all the time by everyone who ever died ever. Stating that your son is too young to rule has happened countless times throughout history, and naming a regent in the interim is usually what happens. And yes, you DO have to listen to it, if we are talking in strictly legal terms (which you are), because it's the mans last will and testament. Bobo the Red posted:The issue I have with thinking Ned had the right to depose Joffrey after the fact is that it requires a ridiculous system to exist we've seen no evidence of. If you can just accuse someone's mother of infidelity to strip them of title, with no evidence, after their father dies, then why hunt the Targaryens down? Easier to just claim that the kids were obviously not the Mad King's because they were sane. Ned died? Well, obviously his kids aren't his, look how 'on their necks their heads' are, take Winterfell from them. It would be ridiculous. Ned had not accused anyone of anything publically until Cersei ripped up a formal legal document and threatened him. In any case, he has proof that they aren't Roberts. We spent several episodes investigating this point. Entire characters are introduced just to highlight this point. Basically everyone that he's aired this assertion to believes it. It will probably stand up quite well under closer examination, which is why Joffrey (Cersei?) goes on a baby murder spree. There's a goddamn sorceress floating around who can basically smell Baratheon bastards at 100 paces. It is really easily proveable that they aren't his. But yeah hey there's clearly no evidence off with the traitors head tia. The issue I have with someone claiming Ned committed treason is that it's a fundamental misreading of the character and the world he inhabits. Ned is a goody two shoes moral absolutist who follows the rules and does the right thing no matter what. He can just tell Robert that the kids aren't his and be done with it. He doesn't because he loves his friend and would to deliver such cruel news on his deathbed. He can just get Renly and the Tyrells to carve the kings guard apart and stick Renly on the throne. He doesn't do it, because that wouldn't be right because Stannis is the rightful heir. He can just align with Littlefinger. He doesn't do that for much the same reason. The irony is that Ned is a wholly good and law abiding man, who would probably freak out at filing his taxes late. He would never commit treason against the realm, yet he is executed for treason.
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May 15, 2015 09:38
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Bobo the Red posted:Well, the trouble there is that Ned, having rejected Robert's entire line, absolutely did owe Stannis his loyalty, because to Ned, Stannis was the King. Pretty much. Ned wouldn't betray his beliefs to save his own life. He was defined by his duty. When Varys goes to see him while imprisoned, Ned makes it clear that he literally cared more about his integrity than his life. From his perspective, he probably didn't view his decisions as mistakes. Sure, they got him killed, but they were right, dammit! Given that Jon Snow is almost definitely Ned's nephew, it's hilarious that he's still more Ned's son than Robb, who despite his good intentions still married Talisa and broke a vow. Jon Snow is every bit as pigheaded as his "father."
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May 15, 2015 09:43
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Xealot posted:Pretty much. Ned wouldn't betray his beliefs to save his own life. He was defined by his duty. When Varys goes to see him while imprisoned, Ned makes it clear that he literally cared more about his integrity than his life. Apologies for veering into spoiler territory, but now that youve brought it up I wouldnt mind airing it. I thought that Jon Snow was the son of Rheager. I suppose this is a good time for me to make my prediction that Melissandre will try to have him burned, but it wont work because he has Dragon's blood and will just strut on out of the flames naked as the day he was born. I mean I know he doesnt have platinum blonde hair but still.
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May 15, 2015 09:56
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hiddenmovement posted:Apologies for veering into spoiler territory, but now that youve brought it up I wouldnt mind airing it. I thought that Jon Snow was the son of Rheager. I suppose this is a good time for me to make my prediction that Melissandre will try to have him burned, but it wont work because he has Dragon's blood and will just strut on out of the flames naked as the day he was born. I mean I know he doesnt have platinum blonde hair but still. I think we're beyond spoilering that particular theory. He's probably Rheagar's son, yeah. It's pretty reasonable to assume based on things the show has said or shown. Though, I believe Jon already proved he CAN be burned. When he killed the wight that tried to take out Jeor Mormont, I'm pretty sure he burned his hand on a lantern he improvised as a weapon. So, he's not a dragon, even if he is a Targaryan.
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May 15, 2015 10:11
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You know what? gently caress all y'all. Daenerys owns. Get hosed Essos, you were already lovely anyway.   
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May 15, 2015 10:12
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Dick Jones posted:Technically, I guess. He's marched a few hundred yards from Castle Black. I wouldn't be surprised if he forgets his keys or gets waylaid in some no-name hamlet and the actual assault on Winterfell doesn't begin until the middle of season 6. Ramsay has his men add extra letters to all the road signs
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May 15, 2015 10:19
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Are we marching on Winterhell, Ser Davos? No, your grace. The sign makers in these parts don't seem to agree with your assessment. It's a distraction your grace. It's a lie. Take it down. *a pyre is built for Road Sign*
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May 15, 2015 10:46
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:You know what? This. Also Ser Pounce owns. What the gently caress writers, don't ignore the best character on the show.
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May 15, 2015 11:04
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Right on. Remember that one slave owning shithead who was getting all high and mighty about his shithead town and then one of the dragons almost ruined his poo poo right then and there and he was all "abloo awibble you promised me safe passage" and she had this big grin and was like "I did! But my dragons didnt! They don't make promises because they are dragons you see." And she jacked his gold. She was all "hey you want your gold back?" while one of the dragons was losing its goddamn mind screeching and clawing the air above it. loving classic Daenerys.
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May 15, 2015 12:03
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Demiurge4 posted:milk of the poppy. You know, if there's one Game of Throne-ism I absolutely hate, it's this. It's opium, we get it, why the gently caress do we need five syllables to allude to it, every single time it's brought up? Call it Laudanum, call it Soma, call it Somniferum, call it Opium, call it Poppy Tears, call it Poppy Milk, even. Call it anything else, but for fucks sakes Milk of the Poppy sounds so god-damned pretentious-fantasy-novelist-pretentious. (This is not a comment on your post or your use of the phrase). Xealot posted:Given that Jon Snow is almost definitely Ned's nephew, it's hilarious that he's still more Ned's son than Robb, who despite his good intentions still married Talisa and broke a vow. Jon Snow is every bit as pigheaded as his "father." It actually makes perfect sense. In the same way that new converts to a religion are always more devout than those who were born into it. Jon Snow was a Bastard, but he was raised in the house and Caitlyn openly hated him. Robb was a Stark, he was always a Stark, he didn't have anything to prove to his father or to himself, he was always gonna inherit Winterfell. My Q-Face fucked around with this message at 12:12 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 12:07
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:You know what?  
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May 15, 2015 12:12
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Yep, the marriage that makes the most sense. Shireen Baratheon, Little Girl Reading Instructor and Step Sister of Dragons.
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May 15, 2015 12:21
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:Yep, the marriage that makes the most sense. Shireen Baratheon, Little Girl Reading Instructor and Step Sister of Dragons. Never thought of it before, but yeah a marriage between good intentions and duty would make sense...and Shireen with dragons... 
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May 15, 2015 13:32
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Demiurge4 posted:I think the most hilarious thing about Joffrey cutting Ned's head off was that it probably wouldn't have happened if someone had taken the time to tell Joffrey why he should be pardoned. Nobody ever loving educated Joffrey on anything, he was free to roam the castle, killing kittens while his mom told him how great he was. His mom just told him "Ned should be pardoned and sent to the wall, make it happen boy" and then Joffrey is like "my mom has the soft heart of a woman, OFF WITH HIS HEAD!" This is actually a really interesting post. I don't think they could have prevented Joffrey from being a sadist, but they did have a hand in making him as incompetent as he was. Joffrey had fits of competence such as recognizing the threat Dany might pose, and his idea for a standing trained army vs conscription that history has shown to be a good idea. He also expressed interest in going to small council meetings and learning about what was happening around the realm. He was a spoiled evil rotten little poo poo but every time he tried to be more than that he was undermined.
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May 15, 2015 14:43
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pasaluki posted:his idea for a standing trained army vs conscription that history has shown to be a good idea.
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May 15, 2015 15:46
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pasaluki posted:This is actually a really interesting post. I don't think they could have prevented Joffrey from being a sadist, but they did have a hand in making him as incompetent as he was. Joffrey had fits of competence such as recognizing the threat Dany might pose, and his idea for a standing trained army vs conscription that history has shown to be a good idea. He also expressed interest in going to small council meetings and learning about what was happening around the realm. He was a spoiled evil rotten little poo poo but every time he tried to be more than that he was undermined. In the books Joff has a few lines that show he desperately craves attention from his dad, who mostly just goes off hunting and drinking. I think a lot of his sociopathy stems from idolizing the hosed up view of manhood he learned observing (but not learning from) Robert- gently caress loads of women, kill loads of stuff, get wasted, no quarter!! That + Cersei telling him he's born to rule, can do no wrong, etc and he ended up a monster. This actually sticks out most to me about Ned's bad decisions- both Renly and Littlefinger suggest doing what Robert actually requested on his deathbed. Take Joffrey into custody and try to reign him in- if he's irredeemable he can either be assassinated, or declared illegitimate, or even legally deposed in favor of Tommen for being a psychopath. Robert asks Ned to act as regent and try to help his son, something he failed to do. Ned gets the opportunity to do this. Instead he attempts an idiotic coup and plunges the realm into war.
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May 15, 2015 15:51
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If Lyanna and Rhaegar are John's parents, who alive right now would even know? What proof could be presented?
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May 15, 2015 15:56
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Maaaaaaagiiiiiiiiiiiiiic proof. edit: Ser Morei of Povich.
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May 15, 2015 16:03
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feedmyleg posted:If Lyanna and Rhaegar are John's parents, who alive right now would even know? What proof could be presented? Something that should kill him, doesn't - just like Daenarys' "fire can't kill a dragon" or something like that happens. A straight up miracle.
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May 15, 2015 16:10
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feedmyleg posted:If Lyanna and Rhaegar are John's parents, who alive right now would even know? What proof could be presented?
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May 15, 2015 16:13
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