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Deki posted:if Carbine wasn't imploding (or if lovely management wasn't _the_ problem), they could probably salvage something from this. After all, I remember City of Heroes being a loving buggy mess the first year or so and that managed to last quite a bit in the end. Yeah at this point I assume most MMOs are going to be buggy/clunky when they're brand new and end up overhauled and polished later. (This also goes for outfit availability, to bring up an earlier post. It's easy to get annoyed at that, but if they make the wise choice and take this f2p and the game somehow lives there will probably be far more and better outfits even just a year from now. The game is just too young to have the pile of dress-up options of something like EQ2 that's had years to accumulate new hats.) Wildstar seems to have a higher number of bugs than I usually expect, though. I've only been in for most of the length of a free trial and I've still run into a bunch of them. Still, I agree re: the game probably being salvageable with some better decisions being made.
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May 17, 2015 22:41
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mushroom_spore posted:Yeah at this point I assume most MMOs are going to be buggy/clunky when they're brand new and end up overhauled and polished later. (This also goes for outfit availability, to bring up an earlier post. It's easy to get annoyed at that, but if they make the wise choice and take this f2p and the game somehow lives there will probably be far more and better outfits even just a year from now. The game is just too young to have the pile of dress-up options of something like EQ2 that's had years to accumulate new hats.) But there shouldn't be. It's tyool 2015. It should have some decent polish to it when it's released.
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May 17, 2015 23:10
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Holyshoot posted:But there shouldn't be. It's tyool 2015. It should have some decent polish to it when it's released. Yeah pretty much. Vanilla EQ could get away with two armor models for a race because it was the only big guy on the market. Vanilla WoW could get away with tedious bullshit because no one had done anything better yet. You cannot release nowadays and hope to compare yourself to Vanilla EQ or Vanilla WoW. Those do not exist anymore. Companies need to realize that their competition is not vanilla whatever, it's current all its expansions whatever. Wildstar is not competing with Vanilla WoW, it's competing with WoW + 5 expansions. Saying 'well it's going to get better in a few years!' isn't how it works, it should come out as polished, playable and as good as the games that have been on the market for 10 years, or it'll die and deserve it.
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May 17, 2015 23:29
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Can't argue with that cause I really wasn't trying to say "it'll totally be good in five years guys!!", just saying I'm an old fart used to old MMOs and I can see this one recovering if conditions are right and it lives long enough.  Other games have managed it.I think the only new-ish ones I've played lately are Wakfu and Project Gorgon, and the latter doesn't even have working player trade windows as of whenever I last looked. (Sure PG is still alpha/beta/whatever and not taking any money, but it's still technically out there to play.) mushroom_spore fucked around with this message at 23:50 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 23:43
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KittyEmpress posted:Companies need to realize that their competition is not vanilla whatever, it's current all its expansions whatever. Wildstar is not competing with Vanilla WoW, it's competing with WoW + 5 expansions. While this is certainly true, how are you supposed to compete with games that have multiple years of content already laid out? It's not as if any company is going to go "Okay guys, you have 2 years to make a MMO, then we'll bankroll you for 2 more years just to polish it and then churn out some content before we release!"
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May 17, 2015 23:58
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WarLocke posted:While this is certainly true, how are you supposed to compete with games that have multiple years of content already laid out? It's not as if any company is going to go "Okay guys, you have 2 years to make a MMO, then we'll bankroll you for 2 more years just to polish it and then churn out some content before we release!" You could have a steady schedule of content releases so people don't get bored and move on, like Wildstar is doing with it's monthly upda------------- oh right 
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May 18, 2015 00:03
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WarLocke posted:While this is certainly true, how are you supposed to compete with games that have multiple years of content already laid out? It's not as if any company is going to go "Okay guys, you have 2 years to make a MMO, then we'll bankroll you for 2 more years just to polish it and then churn out some content before we release!" I dunno, by not being poo poo?? It doesn't need to have all the content of WoW's 5 expansions, but yes, it needs to have the polish and play-ability of current day WoW. Wildstar does not have that. ESO did not have that. TOR did not have that. These games keep releasing unpolished turds that are on par with vanilla WoW and people keep excusing it with 'well it'll get better just like WoW did!' but they shouldn't release like that anyways. You can easily see what you need to steal from WoW as a bare minimum. A few of them recover and get better over time yeah, but it's still true that they hosed up on release. WoW was in a special place that no other MMO will manage to be in, where it was able to be lovely because it was still better than the alternative.
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May 18, 2015 00:13
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WarLocke posted:While this is certainly true, how are you supposed to compete with games that have multiple years of content already laid out? It's not as if any company is going to go "Okay guys, you have 2 years to make a MMO, then we'll bankroll you for 2 more years just to polish it and then churn out some content before we release!" The multiple years of content really isn't the issue. The problem is that mmo's keep making strides forward in convenience and people making mmo's don't steal those ideas in developement. Like, all the previous expansion content in WoW isn't a selling point to just about anyone but good luck launching an mmo with raids and not having some sort of raid finder analog. Oh your new mmo has gathering? Well I better not be competing with players for nodes because FF14 and GW2 have rendered that a dumb concept for idiots.
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May 18, 2015 00:22
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KittyEmpress posted:I dunno, by not being poo poo?? It doesn't need to have all the content of WoW's 5 expansions, but yes, it needs to have the polish and play-ability of current day WoW. Wildstar does not have that. ESO did not have that. TOR did not have that. These games keep releasing unpolished turds that are on par with vanilla WoW and people keep excusing it with 'well it'll get better just like WoW did!' but they shouldn't release like that anyways. You can easily see what you need to steal from WoW as a bare minimum. My point was no company looking to make money on a game is going to let the devs sit down and really polish their new MMO. The publisher just wants money now and that's why poo poo keeps getting released in a buggy as gently caress state. It's next quarter syndrome.
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May 18, 2015 00:24
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WarLocke posted:My point was no company looking to make money on a game is going to let the devs sit down and really polish their new MMO. The publisher just wants money now and that's why poo poo keeps getting released in a buggy as gently caress state. It's next quarter syndrome. You're talking about two different things. There's "making money on our mmo" which is to push out turds and keep pushing out turds and celebrate every quarter, and then there's "making a really good mmo that will make money" which is where publishers figure out that they need to trust their devs and devs need to not be poo poo. You're both just going to get angry at each other over this because you're talking about fundamentally different things, and in this thread I don't think anyone really gives a poo poo about how much money a game is making.
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May 18, 2015 01:30
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Failboattootoot posted:The multiple years of content really isn't the issue. The problem is that mmo's keep making strides forward in convenience and people making mmo's don't steal those ideas in developement. Like, all the previous expansion content in WoW isn't a selling point to just about anyone but good luck launching an mmo with raids and not having some sort of raid finder analog. Oh your new mmo has gathering? Well I better not be competing with players for nodes because FF14 and GW2 have rendered that a dumb concept for idiots. It's not even like I necessarily mind spergy time-wasting old-timey MMOs-- Project Gorgon is exactly that, but I still managed to have fun with it for a little while because it was a) flavorful and hilarious, b) didn't take itself seriously, and c) unapologetic and super clear about just how grindy it is. With Wildstar, choosing a path was an irrevocable, yet meaningless decision that largely didn't affect your gameplay. With Project Gorgon, being turned into a cow when, say, you die to a boss, has actual consequences: must learn and use cow skills, can't talk to some NPCs and vendors, need special armor, etc. And yet you can nope out of all that if it bores or annoys you, so long as you have the right potion. I really wish more MMOs were like it, more devoted to having players try actual new, crazy poo poo while letting them opt out or respec or make different choices down the line.
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May 18, 2015 01:34
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i do not know how you can expect mmos to be polished at release. They are just like any product produced in this day an age, minimally viable. Every company, including mmo developers, should introduce quality products but they no longer need to since there are enough early adopters to make a profit on. Early adopter can usually wheather poor initial product releases for the benefit of being first in and giving feed back on development. So if you all want good mmos stop paying for betas and kickstarters. But lol, who gives a poo poo its only 50 bux.
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May 18, 2015 02:13
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Its almost like video games are this weird market were quality of product has nothing to do with profit so companies constantly poo poo out games to make a quick buck.
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May 18, 2015 02:36
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:and in this thread I don't think anyone really gives a poo poo about how much money a game is making. I don't know about that. The amount of money Wildstar has been making has provided some pretty good comedy lately.
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May 18, 2015 02:48
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CoffeeBooze posted:I don't know about that. The amount of money Wildstar has been making has provided some pretty good comedy lately. That is true. Maybe it's "nobody gives a poo poo about how much money a game is making unless it's a hilariously low amount and is because of the dev's own folly while also being a continuation of the dumpster fire that is that game." I'll work on it, though, that's a little long.
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May 18, 2015 02:52
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Double Monocle posted:Its almost like video games are this weird market were quality of product has nothing to do with profit so companies constantly poo poo out games to make a quick buck. I don't think anyone looking to make a quick buck is in the MMO business.
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May 18, 2015 03:24
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Snatch Duster posted:i do not know how you can expect mmos to be polished at release. You're missing the point here. No one's saying your MMO needs to be bug free and tip top (well, some are, ignore them) they're saying that if you don't have basic quality of life features current ones do, it's gonna be bad. Personal gathering nodes, raid and dungeon finders, auto/mass loot options, earlier access to mounts, questing goods not using inventory space, non-broken pvp systems, SERVER ROLLBACK TECHNOLOGY. If you release a new MMO and I'm bugged/stuck on a quest, I'm gonna log in the next day when it's fixed. If you don't have basic group finding tools I'm not gonna buy your game. If you BRAG ABOUT NOT HAVING GROUP FINDING TOOLS AND THEN SMUGLY CALL THE PEOPLE THAT WANT THEM CASUALS, I'm going to tell friends how awful this game is so they don't buy it either.
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May 18, 2015 03:33
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Mattavist posted:I don't think anyone looking to make a quick buck is in the MMO business. yeah, it's a lot easier to pump out a lovely moba or freemium mobile game they should retool wildstar into a f2p housing game where you go on raids to get progressively fancier beds and bookshelves
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May 18, 2015 03:33
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Saxophone posted:SERVER ROLLBACK TECHNOLOGY. There's 'buggy at release' and 'unpolished', and then there's Wildstar.
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May 18, 2015 03:42
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uncurable mlady posted:yeah, it's a lot easier to pump out a lovely moba or freemium mobile game getting new housing items from dungeons and other group content was already 90% of the reason to do those things, the game was already that. just not f2p yet waitin on that f2p
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May 18, 2015 03:52
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Are there any other MMOs out there that: -are sci-fi -non-mandatory PvP -have player races other than humans, short humans, and humans with pointy ears -have some amount of housing and dress-up, though I can live without those if the game is good And are F2P or at least B2P? If Wildstar makes the incredibly bad choice of staying P2P, it'd be cool to be able to get that stuff elsewhere.
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May 18, 2015 03:55
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Why is "a good game" not on your list?
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May 18, 2015 04:13
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Belzac posted:Why is "a good game" not on your list? glass half-empty probably
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May 18, 2015 04:14
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I am really, really skeptical of the claims that Carbine can't perform rollbacks of their servers. Even at Carbine's level of bad management backups should be performed routinely. They almost certainly had the option to rollback after that big duping bug. They just chose not to, probably because of concerns about bad PR and angering their player base and a whole slew of other reasons why performing a rollback is frequently not done in MMOs and similar games. A lot of times rollbacks just cause further problems. "Carbine can't even roll back their servers!" is going to be another one of those persistent myths, like claims that NCSoft shot Lord British into space so that they could forge his resignation.
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May 18, 2015 04:16
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CoffeeBooze posted:I am really, really skeptical of the claims that Carbine can't perform rollbacks of their servers. Even at Carbine's level of bad management backups should be performed routinely. They almost certainly had the option to rollback after that big duping bug. They just chose not to, probably because of concerns about bad PR and angering their player base and a whole slew of other reasons why performing a rollback is frequently not done in MMOs and similar games. A lot of times rollbacks just cause further problems. Conversely by not rolling back everyone that did the dupe now has a lifetime subscription to their game.
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May 18, 2015 04:18
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Belzac posted:Conversely by not rolling back everyone that did the dupe now has a lifetime subscription to their game.
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May 18, 2015 04:39
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Belzac posted:Conversely by not rolling back everyone that did the dupe now has a lifetime subscription to their game. You didn't even have to use the dupe to get rich day 1. There was an iron brace or some poo poo that sold for more than what you would pay for the materials to make it. I made enough cash doing this before people caught on to buy CREDD for years if I wanted to.
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May 18, 2015 04:42
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Saxophone posted:You're missing the point here. No one's saying your MMO needs to be bug free and tip top (well, some are, ignore them) they're saying that if you don't have basic quality of life features current ones do, it's gonna be bad. Personal gathering nodes, raid and dungeon finders, auto/mass loot options, earlier access to mounts, questing goods not using inventory space, non-broken pvp systems, SERVER ROLLBACK TECHNOLOGY. Isnt the quality of life features still a mark of polished and finished product? I think so. I could be wrong, but wasn't there a group finder at release? I remember using it for adventures and dungeons.
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May 18, 2015 05:05
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Snatch Duster posted:Isnt the quality of life features still a mark of polished and finished product? I think so. Possibly, but I really think there wasn't until a good month in. I thought it wasn't introduced at first because it "strengthened the community bonds" or some poo poo. Like yelling in /trade for a tank for 3 hours was HARDCORE.
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May 18, 2015 05:19
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Belzac posted:Conversely by not rolling back everyone that did the dupe now has a lifetime subscription to their game. Didn't they also gently caress this up by capping you at 2 months worth of gametime you can purchase ingame? I thought I read that here.
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May 18, 2015 05:25
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Saxophone posted:Possibly, but I really think there wasn't until a good month in. I thought it wasn't introduced at first because it "strengthened the community bonds" or some poo poo. Like yelling in /trade for a tank for 3 hours was HARDCORE. You're thinking of TOR. WS had group finder at launch.
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May 18, 2015 05:32
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Mayor McCheese posted:Didn't they also gently caress this up by capping you at 2 months worth of gametime you can purchase ingame? I thought I read that here. I don't know if they did that but apparently CREDD goes poof after 90 days if not used.
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May 18, 2015 05:34
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Saxophone posted:Possibly, but I really think there wasn't until a good month in. I thought it wasn't introduced at first because it "strengthened the community bonds" or some poo poo. Like yelling in /trade for a tank for 3 hours was HARDCORE. I don't remember how effective Wildstars group finding tools were right out of the gate, but you may be thinking of The Old Republic since it pulled this exact crap. When it launched its party finder was garbage and it had no dungeon finder at all, I remember the developers desperately trying to convince everyone that this was an intentional design decision meant to "Encourage socialization" I also remember other players shouting me down when I asked if any sort of dungeon finder existed, apparently the dungeon finder feature "ruined WoW" because nobody talked anymore, they just ran dungeons. This meant people had to spend hours spamming multiple channels hoping to find another player so they could finally get around to playing the damned game.
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May 18, 2015 05:39
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My favourite wildstar thing was the people in the sau no to f2p thread claiming that the price of credd rising was a sign more people were buying them.
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May 18, 2015 05:39
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Deki posted:if Carbine wasn't imploding (or if lovely management wasn't _the_ problem), they could probably salvage something from this. After all, I remember City of Heroes being a loving buggy mess the first year or so and that managed to last quite a bit in the end. LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Yeah but what else was there when CoH was struggling? Part of the pressure of launching MMOs now is that there are so many other ones with just as much hype as yours, so if you can't deliver on your hype people are going to drop it for the next hype machine. CoX didn't have a whole lot of competition (even WoW was still a year out at launch), but it also had a pretty enviable niche with its customization options and casual-friendly play style, not to mention devs that were friendly and willing to chat on the official forums. It wasn't until about a year later that their lead dev started swinging the nerf bat because people weren't playing the way he'd envisioned, and by then the player base had either entrenched or got into the habit of rotating their subs between different games. People still do the same thing these days. In the MMO threads I follow, it's usually a few pages at worst between people popping in to ask if it's worth a resub, and a lot of non-raiding Warcraft players seem to only resub whenever there's a content patch. We've seen FF14 and SWTOR brought back from the brink, and people still play crap like APB and Defiance. If Carbine hadn't been so hellbent on catering to a nigh-nonexistent ~hardcore~ audience and treating them with the kind of contempt I haven't seen since the days of Everquest's devs swore utterly broken poo poo was working as intended, they could have been a decent also-ran. They could still pull it off, if they made changes deeper than putting things behind a F2P storefront. That's assuming NCSoft doesn't yank the plug for whatever reason, or it doesn't become a casualty of a Nexon takeover.
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May 18, 2015 05:58
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Bieeardo posted:That's assuming NCSoft doesn't yank the plug for whatever reason, or it doesn't become a casualty of a Nexon takeover. Oh, I don't think they need to look far to find a reason. And yeah, CoH had a pretty sweet gig. It came out the same year wow did, but it was very different from the mmos of the time, so the playerbase could be very forgiving just because of its uniqueness. Wildstar has zero unique features to keep it afloat while it fixes things, and even worse it's not just competing against vanilla wow, EQ, lineage 2, DAoC and asheron's call. It's competing against WoD and FFXIV. There isn't a niche it can hide itself in, it was a game designed from the ground up to compete with WoW and there's no loving way it'll have a second chance against that lion.
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May 18, 2015 06:14
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My point was more that CoX was nearly unplayable, I'd say definitely worse than Wildstar at launch. Neither of the two people that I knew that had it at launch managed to even get past character creation due to client/server issues. And yet it became beloved to it's small niche community. Wildstar being hosed is a given, partially because there's a lot more competition, but mainly because in the state Carbine is, there's no way that they are going to be able to do the changes that would lead to them holding and growing the niche community that is sticking with them thusfar. If they're bleeding talent and didn't have much to begin with, I really doubt they're going to do much more than grab as much F2P money as possible before the lights are turned out.
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May 18, 2015 06:16
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When vanilla wow launched there were entire months where people couldn't log in and play. CoH might have been bad, but it was pretty par for the course for the average launch back then. It was also entirely different from what else was there. It was the only mmo that wasn't fantasy tit elves, on top of quite a few differences in mechanics. Basically even at its worst CoH still had something to offer, so it's not really a fair comparison to the milquetoast pile of player hating crap that wildstar is.
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May 18, 2015 06:25
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Deki posted:if Carbine wasn't imploding (or if lovely management wasn't _the_ problem), they could probably salvage something from this. After all, I remember City of Heroes being a loving buggy mess the first year or so and that managed to last quite a bit in the end. To be fair, CoH never stopped being a buggy mess in places. Thing was, over time they were different bugs as more and more of the original code was hacked apart to unfuck the more terrible parts of the game and add new stuff, which then broke old stuff which was never intended to be used that way. Wildstar, on the other hand, from what I hear still has bugs that were well known in beta almost a year later.
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May 18, 2015 06:27
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We've definitely come a long, long way from the days of waiting a couple of months for the launch dust to settle. There are still bugs at launch, and generally what you see in beta is what you'll see live, but you don't often see the same kind of cataclysmic pants-around-ankles fuckery.
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May 18, 2015 06:43
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