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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:The Illuminati was, from the very beginning when Bendis introduced it, Tony's idea. He formed it, he kept it going, and he'd always been a driving force behind it. Cap's rage at Tony, though, had a lot less to do with the Illuminati's actions and a lot more to do with "you were my friend and you lied to me and betrayed me and helped wipe my brain." Being lied to by a brother hurts more than being lied to by a casual acquaintance. I don't understand why the other Illuminati members were shunning him, though.
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May 19, 2015 02:58
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Phenotype posted:I don't understand why the other Illuminati members were shunning him, though. Two reasons, really. At first, SIXIS happened and Tony stayed "inverted," meaning he's been kind of a douche; then, secondly, once they reconciled with Cap they realized that if they were going to keep Cap from coming after them anymore, they'd have to keep Tony out of the picture.
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May 19, 2015 03:03
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Phenotype posted:What was everyone mad at Tony for, enough that they didn't want him in the life raft, and Cap's final wish was to beat him to death? I didn't think he was any more or less responsible for the actions of the Illuminati than anyone else. Wait, did Cap actually beat Tony to death?
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May 19, 2015 03:58
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It's left unresolved, but their fight ended up in the middle of the apocalypse that Ultimate SHIELD was unleashing on NYC.
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May 19, 2015 04:03
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:Wait, did Cap actually beat Tony to death? No, Tony lit Steve's head on fire with a repulsor but Steve kept coming and then a helicarrier fell on both of them.
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May 19, 2015 04:07
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TNG posted:No, Tony lit Steve's head on fire with a repulsor but Steve kept coming and then a helicarrier fell on both of them.
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May 19, 2015 04:41
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Phenotype posted:And how did Doctor Strange become the head of the Black Priests? That was an insane reveal, but I have no idea where that comes from. There's even dialog in the last few books where he says he can't quite take part in their hive mind. How did he even learn the magic words that can blow up superheroes? I believe it was after the Illuminati blew up the world for the Not-Justice League where Strange took the helmet of the mystic there, which was related to the Black Priests. He eventually learned the Black Priests were trying to stop the Incursions and led them, because he's Strange and the Sorcerer Supreme. He just couldn't communicate with their hive mind, but learned what their words were. He didn't have enough of a soul for lots of reasons, probably even going back to World War Hulk where he used black magic to fight the Hulk. There was also a New Avengers annual which touched on Strange dabbling in dark arts.
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May 19, 2015 04:50
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redbackground posted:And then the planet blew up. Then the universe blew up.
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May 19, 2015 05:06
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Codependent Poster posted:I believe it was after the Illuminati blew up the world for the Not-Justice League where Strange took the helmet of the mystic there, which was related to the Black Priests. He eventually learned the Black Priests were trying to stop the Incursions and led them, because he's Strange and the Sorcerer Supreme. He just couldn't communicate with their hive mind, but learned what their words were. It's actually a little annoying how he had recent story arcs that it's this new and dangerous thing for him to be dabbling in the dark arts, because he's always used them. One of his original teasers (like Daredevil being "The Man Without Fear" ) is "The White Knight who uses Black Magic." One of his earliest stories is a series of cliff hangars where, in order to defeat some cosmic horror trying to destroy the earth he unleashes another, even more powerful, cosmic horror that tries to destroy the earth, until either Eternity or The Living Tribunal has enough of this poo poo and destroys the earth themselves. Then Doctor Strange convinces them to remake it exactly the same way it was.
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May 19, 2015 05:39
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Skwirl posted:One of his earliest stories is a series of cliff hangars where, in order to defeat some cosmic horror trying to destroy the earth he unleashes another, even more powerful, cosmic horror that tries to destroy the earth, until either Eternity or The Living Tribunal has enough of this poo poo and destroys the earth themselves. Then Doctor Strange convinces them to remake it exactly the same way it was. Yeah, that was one of the old Gene Colan ones, and you forgot to mention that Eternity tells him that the Earth wound up exactly where it should have eventually wound up, and he was going to crush Strange for even suggesting it, when out of nowhere, the Ancient One leaps into the fray and wrestles Eternity into submission. I think one good suplex did it. After getting his rear end kicked by the Ancient One, Eternity decides okay why not remake the Earth, since its just one little world and it's so super easy for him. Also, he remakes Earth exactly the same it was with one exception- there's no second Doctor Strange. Eternity salutes Strange, Ancient One says "Hey almost forgot to mention, I'm one with the universe now," fades into Eternity's body, and the next thing you know Strange is back in the Sanctum Sanctorum falling asleep on the job again. They sure wrote 'em different those days. Binary Badger fucked around with this message at 06:06 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 05:53
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I feel like a lot of writers who've written Dr. Strange recently have never actually read his books before. They just saw a couple of his guest appearances in Avengers books and were like "No sweat, I got this poo poo!" Maybe that's not fair, though. That's probably just true of Bendis.
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May 19, 2015 05:59
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Skwirl posted:It's actually a little annoying how he had recent story arcs that it's this new and dangerous thing for him to be dabbling in the dark arts, because he's always used them. One of his original teasers (like Daredevil being "The Man Without Fear" ) is "The White Knight who uses Black Magic." One of his earliest stories is a series of cliff hangars where, in order to defeat some cosmic horror trying to destroy the earth he unleashes another, even more powerful, cosmic horror that tries to destroy the earth, until either Eternity or The Living Tribunal has enough of this poo poo and destroys the earth themselves. Then Doctor Strange convinces them to remake it exactly the same way it was. It's not black arts in general, it's a specific super bad magic book.
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May 19, 2015 06:03
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Lurdiak posted:I feel like a lot of writers who've written Dr. Strange recently have never actually read his books before. They just saw a couple of his guest appearances in Avengers books and were like "No sweat, I got this poo poo!" There's a great line in New Avengers when Dr. Strange is hanging with them post-civil war and he makes an illusion so his Greenwich Village house is in complete disrepari and will be demolished for a Starbucks. Iron Man enlists some B-list magic villain to try and figure out if it's an illusion and the dude is all "Nope, as far as I can tell he's abandoned this place months ago. Of course he is the master of the mystic arts." But then everything else involving him in New Avengers wasn't great. I think Matt Fraction really understood him in his The Defenders relaunch, especially the part where he scares Betty Ross out of her Red She-Hulk form.
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May 19, 2015 06:06
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Didn't he get Brother Voodoo to look at the Sanctum Sanctorum? And wasn't it Osborn in the Iron Patriot armor, not Tony?
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May 19, 2015 06:13
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Skwirl posted:I think Matt Fraction really understood him in his The Defenders relaunch, especially the part where he scares Betty Ross out of her Red She-Hulk form. Didn't Fraction run with the recent trend of Strange being a sex perv who sleeps with co-eds? I know he didn't start that, but still.
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May 19, 2015 06:15
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Binary Badger posted:Didn't he get Brother Voodoo to look at the Sanctum Sanctorum? Oh, was it? I thought it was an old villain that had been conscripted via the Superhero Registration Act. Either way it's a good line.
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May 19, 2015 06:15
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Lurdiak posted:Didn't Fraction run with the recent trend of Strange being a sex perv who sleeps with co-eds? I know he didn't start that, but still. Well you see he slept with and married one of his apprentices who was actually several hundred years older then him therefore he's an old pervert chasing young women. You think Strange has it bad nobody remembers crap about Clea.
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May 19, 2015 06:48
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Lurdiak posted:Didn't Fraction run with the recent trend of Strange being a sex perv who sleeps with co-eds? I know he didn't start that, but still. He sleeps with a co-ed and then is kinda an rear end in a top hat to her, but the ending is him going back in time and taking her out for coffee after, and maybe dating her further, thus negating all the other events in the book so it's sorta a story about learningnot to be an rear end in a top hat. Aside from Clea (who had an affair with Benjamin Franklin at one point) he's also dated Night Nurse and Dead Girl, so I don't think he has a very specific type.
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May 19, 2015 06:53
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Skwirl posted:He sleeps with a co-ed and then is kinda an rear end in a top hat to her, but the ending is him going back in time and taking her out for coffee after, and maybe dating her further, thus negating all the other events in the book so it's sorta a story about learningnot to be an rear end in a top hat. See, my issue with that is that Dr. Strange is a character who's supposed to have completed that personal journey. That's the whole point of who he is, compared to who someone like Spider-man is. I'm not saying he shouldn't ever stumble or have personal flaws, but he's been written an awful lot like MCU Tony Stark these past years and it just strikes me as people not being good enough writers to make a guy who isn't petty and blatantly flawed an interesting character. There are other steps in the hero's journey than the first third. Ah, whatever, no one cares. The first Iron Man movie made more money than all of Dr Strange's comics combined.
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May 19, 2015 07:03
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Lurdiak posted:See, my issue with that is that Dr. Strange is a character who's supposed to have completed that personal journey. That's the whole point of who he is, compared to who someone like Spider-man is. I'm not saying he shouldn't ever stumble or have personal flaws, but he's been written an awful lot like MCU Tony Stark these past years and it just strikes me as people not being good enough writers to make a guy who isn't petty and blatantly flawed an interesting character. I feel Dr. Strange should be a little stand offish, he shouldn't be the smug prick RDJ is, but he should totally have a bit of that "College professor who sleeps with his graduate TA" thing going on.
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May 19, 2015 07:21
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I care a lot about Dr. Strange. I'm sure more people will care after the Bernadette Crumblebot film comes out. It honestly irritates me to no end that every writer just flat-out forgot Strange is supposed to be married to Clea. I know neither of them are big deal continuity characters to most writers but you'd think that might be an important detail to consider if you're going to be handling the character in any significant way.
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May 19, 2015 07:26
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Didn't they get a divorce because Clea had to the rule the Dark Dimension or something? Or again because Clea found him dallying with other women in Fearless Defenders? Either way, I remember Clea not having much of a presence in his book as the 90s wore on. It's kinda sad what's happened to his supporting cast over the years. Rintrah got fried and then was promptly forgotten about as all that Midnight Sons crap gave way into that Salome crap which then gave way into the doppelganger crap. We then had Sister Nil who was forgotten about as soon as Warren Ellis' run started meandering about. Wong has been removed from the status quo by New Avengers. Night Nurse seemed like she would stick around, but she got lost in all that WWH nonsense. Clea is, of course, gone too. I miss the Aged Genghis, he was rad. Really, it seems crossovers that aren't named The Infinity Gauntlet are Dr.Strange's worst enemy. They always blow up his life and don't really replace it with anything that could support its own fictional universe. I always feel Dr.Strange is at his best when it explores all of these mindbending, perhaps psychedelic, concepts and how it bounces off a man who still wants to live in the material to some degree with his friends/lovers. I remember really liking the arc where he refuses to go fight a war for the Vishanti that will last 5000 years because he wants to maintain ties with his life in New York in late 1980 something. His best moments are dealing with things people deal with and think about, but don't ever meet and thus could question. Strange has met his own death, face the destruction and recreation of the universe by an all-mighty God, met his dreams and nightmares, fought in Hell, and dealt with the possibility that all this magic and abstractness might just be in his head. It's a drat shame he's sorta this D&D Wizard these days who has to be saddled with mere super heroics instead of engaging in ontological debates with talking caterpillars or trying to find the Universe who had gone missing. He also needs an artist on Steve Ditko's level, and those are few and far between. TNG fucked around with this message at 08:33 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 08:22
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TNG posted:He also needs an artist on Steve Ditko's level, and those are few and far between. Doctor Strange comics usually get lucky with artists (being one-shots or mini-series helps). Emma Rios had a great run with Mark Waid's cool mentor Strange and the Season One book.
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May 19, 2015 08:40
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Maybe Dr. Strange should be replaced with the version that appeared in the Thunderbolts Annual.fatherboxx posted:Doctor Strange comics usually get lucky with artists (being one-shots or mini-series helps). Emma Rios had a great run with Mark Waid's cool mentor Strange and the Season One book. Oh I think Emma Rios is a very talented artist and produces absolutely beautiful artwork from both a structural and compositional standpoint. But I think a few more blotters of acid are necessary if you're doing Strange. In a lot of ways, Strange's visual aesthetic was forged in 60s and 70s counterculture. There's all the psychedelic stuff, but you can point to some examples in the early books and find art inspired by pop-art and counterculture musical advertisements. I think that's one of the things that makes Strange interesting and unique. TNG fucked around with this message at 09:01 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 08:55
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What saddens me is that it's very well known that everyone who comes to Marvel has a Dr. Strange pitch, to the point that they've been known to preface interviews with writers with "Please no Dr. Strange pitch". Doing the character justice doesn't sell, apparently.
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May 19, 2015 09:08
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Lurdiak posted:What saddens me is that it's very well known that everyone who comes to Marvel has a Dr. Strange pitch, to the point that they've been known to preface interviews with writers with "Please no Dr. Strange pitch". Doing the character justice doesn't sell, apparently. The refrain has always been, essentially, "Everyone wants to write Doctor Strange, and no one wants to buy Doctor Strange." It's sad. 
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May 19, 2015 09:40
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I liked The Oath. 
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May 19, 2015 09:44
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SynthOrange posted:I liked The Oath. The Oath is amazing, it's one of my favorite Doctor Strange books, but you, me and Lurdiak are the only people who buy Dr. Strange comics.
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May 19, 2015 10:07
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The Oath is really good but even that had Dr. Strange spend the entire story really pissed off and throwing things and condescending to everyone, which is a bit off from how he's usually portrayed. Obviously circumstances were dire, but still.
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May 19, 2015 10:56
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Anyone who has an asian manservant in this day and age should be a bit of a jerk.
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May 19, 2015 11:02
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So I guess there was no recent Dr Strange series, then? I was hoping he had a personal title that would have fleshed out that part of the story. I've always really liked Strange, but the only stuff I've read with him as the lead were a miniseries from several years ago (can't remember the name, but he fights an assassin with Hitler's gun), and an older book co-starring Doom where he becomes Sorceror Supreme and grants Doom a boon. Are there any other arcs really worth getting into, if Hickman Avengers is my first exposure to Marvel in years? Strange, Center's, FF, anything really. I really liked a lot of the high concept stuff Hickman threw around, big fan of the Illuminati too.
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May 19, 2015 11:21
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Phenotype posted:So I guess there was no recent Dr Strange series, then? I was hoping he had a personal title that would have fleshed out that part of the story. I've always really liked Strange, but the only stuff I've read with him as the lead were a miniseries from several years ago (can't remember the name, but he fights an assassin with Hitler's gun), and an older book co-starring Doom where he becomes Sorceror Supreme and grants Doom a boon. Well, if you dig Hickman's Avengers, you're gong to love his Fantastic Four. If you're interested in Dr Strange specifically, he's not in enough comics to begin with, but in random order you should check out: The Oath, X-Statix Present: Dead Girl, The Original Lee/Ditko run of Strange Tales, Matt Fraction's Defenders, Most every other run of Defenders, Triumph and Torment, the Doc Strange and Doc Doom team-up.
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May 19, 2015 11:34
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Skwirl posted:He sleeps with a co-ed and then is kinda an rear end in a top hat to her, but the ending is him going back in time and taking her out for coffee after, and maybe dating her further, thus negating all the other events in the book so it's sorta a story about learningnot to be an rear end in a top hat. Well poo poo I just read the Deadpool issue that references the Franklin thing this morning and thought it was a joke. That New Avengers annual with Strange from last year was pretty good, I'd nominate Marco Rudy to do art on a new ongoing if he could keep to deadlines and could have his layouts make sense at least 10% more of the time.  
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May 19, 2015 12:16
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Lurdiak posted:The Oath is really good but even that had Dr. Strange spend the entire story really pissed off and throwing things and condescending to everyone, which is a bit off from how he's usually portrayed. How is he usually portrayed?
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May 19, 2015 12:39
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I very much enjoy The Oath as a sort of 2000s update on Dr. Strange's life but roughly 57% of that book is Strange going "Please, I'm the Sorcerer @#$%ing Supreme. A novice like you couldn't possibly figure out a way to beat me" and then lo and behold the novice figures out a way to beat him. Again, though, it is one of the more enjoyable Strange stories, and I would've been very interested in a Brian K. Vaughan Dr. Strange series. Dan Didio posted:How is he usually portrayed? Though Vaughan's depiction did go a bit towards making Strange a bit more relatable, I think. Youngin's these days don't relate to mellow, they relate to cranky. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 12:47 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 12:42
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Arrogance truly is the folly of men.
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May 19, 2015 12:45
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Skwirl posted:Well, if you dig Hickman's Avengers, you're gong to love his Fantastic Four. If you're interested in Dr Strange specifically, he's not in enough comics to begin with, but in random order you should check out: The Oath, X-Statix Present: Dead Girl, The Original Lee/Ditko run of Strange Tales, Matt Fraction's Defenders, Most every other run of Defenders, Triumph and Torment, the Doc Strange and Doc Doom team-up. VVV Seconding!   redbackground fucked around with this message at 14:27 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 12:52
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While probably not actually a good Dr. Strange story, the Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire Defenders series is fun.
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May 19, 2015 13:40
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Any moment Giffen, Dematteis and Maguire aren't actively working together is somewhat darker, I think.BrianWilly posted:Again, though, it is one of the more enjoyable Strange stories, and I would've been very interested in a Brian K. Vaughan Dr. Strange series. Interesting, I've only really been exposed to him in Hickman's Avengers/New Avengers, Triumph and Torment and Fraction's Defenders and all of those felt like genuine attempts at the same character.
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May 19, 2015 14:30
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Marvel has pretty much confirmed, more than once, that there's a new Dr. Strange book coming after Secret Wars. (Presumably, it was originally going to launch earlier, given that the character is on the Avengers NOW! preview art from last year and that every other book represented there has since materialized, AFAIK.)
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May 19, 2015 14:40
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