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The Sand Snakes fight was bad, not because of hokey choreography, but because they neglected to build up any tension about it and it didn't really feel like there were any stakes Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0&t=479s
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May 20, 2015 00:50
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I freely admit that Stannis the Mannist was not the Eldest. I was wrong and I apologize. Doesn't change the rest of Stannis' horrible actions, but I admit I was wrong. About that.
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May 20, 2015 00:59
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Linguica posted:The Sand Snakes fight was bad, not because of hokey choreography, but because they neglected to build up any tension about it and it didn't really feel like there were any stakes I think its because they are little girls with gimmicky weapons Contrast this travesty with every single Sandor Clegane fight which include grappling, gouging, biting, kicking, punching, butting, charging, etc. those were real fights.
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May 20, 2015 01:03
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Linguica posted:The Sand Snakes fight was bad, not because of hokey choreography, but because they neglected to build up any tension about it and it didn't really feel like there were any stakes God I wish he'd do more stuff.
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May 20, 2015 01:04
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In It For The Tank posted:Stannis feels bad for killing his brother because he killed his brother, not because Renly was good or right or in any way defensible. He feels bad because he killed his brother and he knows it was murder (and therefore, wrong). He's had no guilt about killing anyone else. You can claim Renly would've killed him right back, which I doubt. Hell, if Stannis believed that, he wouldn't have any reason to feel guilty. It's quite obvious he did an odious thing no one, even the depraved Lannisters, was willing to do. I never said Renly was good or right, just that Stannis was also wrong and worse (because of the kinslaying and religious persecution) Super Ninja Fish posted:Your choices are Stannis (who is by the way on the side of the Starks - he doesn't want to rule Winterfell, he wants to put a Stark in it) or Ramsay Bolton. There's always team White Walker
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May 20, 2015 01:30
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Bobo the Red posted:He feels bad because he killed his brother and he knows it was murder (and therefore, wrong). He's had no guilt about killing anyone else. Because Renly's the one person he killed whom he loved. His refusal to let Melisandre share the burden of guilt shows that the matter is deeply personal, and has nothing to do with the magical nature of Renly's death. quote:It's quite obvious he did an odious thing no one, even the depraved Lannisters, was willing to do. What? Killing kin? Jaime killed his cousin and Tyrion killed Tywin. On the subject: Robert killed Rhaegar, his cousin; Robb killed Rickard Karstark, who called it kinslaying despite the generations of seperation between them; and Dany sacrificed Rhaego, allowed Viserys to die, and smothered Drogo. Or using magic? Dany's dragons, born in blood sacrifice, say hello. I'd also argue wildfire is explicitly magical and the Lannisters certainly made good use of that. If any of the other claimants had access to a Red Priestess or more convenient form of magic, it would be much more common. Look how much fun Thoros and Beric had with it. Also, Qyburn.
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May 20, 2015 02:00
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I found a cool video about Stanimal the Manimal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NqhUMdyDmc (seizure warning)
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May 20, 2015 02:12
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In It For The Tank posted:Because Renly's the one person he killed whom he loved. His refusal to let Melisandre share the burden of guilt shows that the matter is deeply personal, and has nothing to do with the magical nature of Renly's death. He didn't seem to love Renly at all, he just knows he loving promised on his mother's memory to let Renly think poo poo over and then murdered him. I don't think it's about loving Renly at all, it's about knowing he violated not only one of the most sacred laws of Westeros, but his own (twisted as gently caress) sense of right and wrong. quote:What? Killing kin? Jaime killed his cousin and Tyrion killed Tywin. On the subject: Robert killed Rhaegar, his cousin; Robb killed Rickard Karstark, who called it kinslaying despite the generations of seperation between them; and Dany sacrificed Rhaego, allowed Viserys to die, and smothered Drogo. Killing distant cousins is probably not the same (I mean, they're all distant cousins), and Tyrion didn't kill Tywin for years after what Stannis did, and in no small part, what Stannis did played a role in Tyrion's fate (hard to be tried for murdering Joffrey when Joffrey would've been deposed within weeks by Renly, who would've had the Tyrells and probably the Starks behind him) Karstark can call it kinslaying if he wants, no one else seems to have. He was just trying to save himself. Dany is totes also a kinslayer. quote:Or using magic? Dany's dragons, born in blood sacrifice, say hello. I'd also argue wildfire is explicitly magical and the Lannisters certainly made good use of that. If any of the other claimants had access to a Red Priestess or more convenient form of magic, it would be much more common. Look how much fun Thoros and Beric had with it. I don't think wildfire is explicitly magical at all. I never got that sense anyway. Qyburn also hasn't done anything magical that we've seen. he's done  I'm mostly bothered by the murder part of the magical murder. Magic is cool; fueling it by burning humans is not, but the shadow was made with volunteer labor
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May 20, 2015 02:17
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Stannis is the king no one wants, but everyone needs.
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May 20, 2015 02:30
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Hexel posted:I think its because they are little girls with gimmicky weapons Pretty much this. The setting to date has done a pretty good job of showing the brutal realities of medieval era combat. Nobody really uses big ol' impractical weapons except for ceremonial purposes (disregarding the mountain, since he's essentially a giant) and no matter how skilled the combatants are, fights are rarely graceful and end up devolving quickly (Ned getting speared through the leg, Brienne & the Hound's downright brutal brawl). Also, there really aren't that much in the way of accomplished child fighters in the setting, since it's actually kind of hard for a child stand up to the greater experience and physical development of an adult on the battlefield. The closest example we have is Arya, who only killed with the element of surprise and was immediately disarmed in the only 1v1 stand up duel she's ever been in. Additionally what few accomplished female warriors we've seen (Yara, Brienne) have had builds that suggest they can actually fight. So when you have three skinny teenage girls leap out into a fight brandishing whips and go toe to toe with accomplished fighters like Bronne, only to get broken up by a guy carrying an obsidian halberd twice his size, it's a bit jarring. 
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May 20, 2015 02:31
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Bobo the Red posted:He didn't seem to love Renly at all, he just knows he loving promised on his mother's memory to let Renly think poo poo over and then murdered him. I don't think it's about loving Renly at all, it's about knowing he violated not only one of the most sacred laws of Westeros, but his own (twisted as gently caress) sense of right and wrong. And Renly was just as stubborn as Stannis, he had no right to the throne yet he petulantly tried to hold onto his claim... to the point where he'd rather waste his strength fighting Stannis than the people who'd already killed Robert and his most loyal ally. Stannis even offered to make him his heir, but he was having too much fun pretending to be a king to care. Bobo the Red posted:Killing distant cousins is probably not the same (I mean, they're all distant cousins), and Tyrion didn't kill Tywin for years after what Stannis did, and in no small part, what Stannis did played a role in Tyrion's fate (hard to be tried for murdering Joffrey when Joffrey would've been deposed within weeks by Renly, who would've had the Tyrells and probably the Starks behind him) Ramsay was gentler with Theon's dick than you're being with logic here. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 02:40 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 02:37
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Bobo the Red posted:He didn't seem to love Renly at all, he just knows he loving promised on his mother's memory to let Renly think poo poo over and then murdered him. I don't think it's about loving Renly at all, it's about knowing he violated not only one of the most sacred laws of Westeros, but his own (twisted as gently caress) sense of right and wrong. He says he loves Renly: the boy he was, not the man he became (and Renly echoes the same sentiment prior to his death). I see no reason to doubt either of them, especially when Stannis is so torn up about it and refuses to let Melisandre pretend she knows what it's like to kill his brother. quote:Killing distant cousins is probably not the same (I mean, they're all distant cousins), The curse of kinslaying is such a superstitious concept that I do not doubt that people believe that cousin killing is still kinslaying. Jaime tacitly references his murder of Alton when discussing the "cides" in Season 4, so it must have been on his mind. The fact is, what is bad about kinslaying is not that it is anathema to the different religions but because it involves killing your loved one. If only Renly had listened and not been such a tool. quote:and Tyrion didn't kill Tywin for years after what Stannis did, and in no small part, what Stannis did played a role in Tyrion's fate (hard to be tried for murdering Joffrey when Joffrey would've been deposed within weeks by Renly, who would've had the Tyrells and probably the Starks behind him) If only the Baratheon mother had only had two sons, Renly would have never been killed. It's her fault Renly died. Seriously, you can't blame Stannis for what Tyrion did, even indirectly or partly. quote:I don't think wildfire is explicitly magical at all. It's created by a group of people called the Alchemists and Hallyne says it requires spells to create it. It's hard to think he's being insincere or self-aggrandizing when wildfire is green and impossibly more potent than its real-life equivalent of Greek Fire. quote:Qyburn also hasn't done anything magical that we've seen. he's done Science.
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May 20, 2015 02:58
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You guys are right. I overstated the causality. I do think Renly's murder led to Tywin's, very indirectly, but I did not mean to suggest that Stannis was culpable for that part (the many many deaths of the war itself kinda are his fault though). In case it's not clear why: Renly was, pretty clearly, going to beat Stannis, giving him control of the Stormlands, the Reach, and an extremely likely alliance with the North and the Riverlands (Cat was in Renly's tent when he died, asking for precisely that). If that happens, the Crownlands and the Westerlands are now fighting a war on two fronts, and the Lannisters are broke. Tywin probably tries to broker a deal where he gets to keep Casterly Rock. Maybe they take it, peace comes quickly; if they don't, the war happens, but it is far more swift, because there's no one else for Tywin to turn to. Dorne hates him; the Iron Islands are useless, and Lysa was a crazy lady but would not necessarily betray the Riverlands for no good reason. All the incest kids, and the incest twins are either killed or exiled. No regicide needed. No Red Wedding. No purple wedding. No more weddings ever again. It's similar to why Littlefinger is responsible for Cat's death: no, he had nothing to do with killing her directly, but he caused the war that caused her murder In It For The Tank posted:It's created by a group of people called the Alchemists and Hallyne says it requires spells to create it. It's hard to think he's being insincere or self-aggrandizing when wildfire is green and impossibly more potent than its real-life equivalent of Greek Fire. I did not recall that. It doesn't seem to be really talked about in terms of magic poo poo (they had lots of it even when magic seemed to mostly be gone during the Mad King's reign) tooterfish posted:Renly's camp was preparing for battle, he made it plain he didn't need to think anything over. The truce was over. The camp was always preparing for battle because the whole reason they met is that they were about to fight. That's even why dawn was the deadline: it was understood that at dawn, the battle started. quote:And Renly was just as stubborn as Stannis, he had no right to the throne yet he petulantly tried to hold onto his claim... to the point where he'd rather waste his strength fighting Stannis than the people who'd already killed Robert and his most loyal ally. Stannis even offered to make him his heir, but he was having too much fun pretending to be a king to care. Renly was just as stubborn as Stannis, but he was also right: Stannis couldn't secure the alliances he needed to win the war. He needed a deus ex machina to give him free infinite money to even stay in the fight. Renly could have done it. It's why Renly had to die, because if Renly won, there's no more story. Renly also had as much right to the throne as Stannis, since they were both trying to usurp it. "Robert's most loyal ally" is the reason for the mess in the first place: he had like 5 godamn chances to handle the situation in a variety of ways. It would've been better for almost everyone except Littlefinger if he'd just not come at all.
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May 20, 2015 03:25
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As I said when this came up earlier. Renly most likely would have lived to be the loving king if he hadn't been such a idiot. If he had supported Stannis his army immediately has all of the might of the Stormlands and Dragonstone. It also would have the Tyrells by marriage, and likely would have had the North assuming Stannis agreed to free them like Renly did. Regardless of if he made a deal with the North the Lannisters would have been hosed. They can't ally with the North obviously, the Vale would have stayed neutral, and Dorne is also on bad terms with them. Kings Landing could have been assaulted by Tarly from the South, Stannis from the West and Robb Stark from the North and would have been ground into dust. So what happens to Renly? Well I assume he (Stannis) still has to be married to Selyse and Selyse has the shittiest vagina in the world so its safe to assume Renly would be the Heir to the throne with Marg becoming the Queen. Also Stannis is likely to grind his teeth to an early grave anyway. So Renly and Marg would have had to settle for being the equivalent of a prince and princess for awhile and would have been loved by all of the people. Renly was a huge loving rear end in a top hat who is directly responsible for the Lannisters being in power and indirectly responsible for his own wife and his lover being arrested by the Faith Militant. In short he hosed everything up. pasaluki fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 03:56
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People like Stannis because he is the last badass general who has both the will and capacity (an army) to destroy the characters we hate most. He's on his way to kill some now. Also he's getting an upswing in his arc, or so it seems anyway. Certainly getting more likeable. I guess you could count Danaerys as having an army but she also hates and wants to kill a lot of "good" characters. And will never reach Westeros anyway so she doesn't matter.
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May 20, 2015 05:04
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Bobo the Red posted:Renly wasn't going to kill stannis, he had no reason to kill Stannis. Do you actually think that a King would let someone else who he had to fight in order to seize the throne hang around? Unless there's some political reason to keep them around(in which case they get thrown in prison forever) the winner kills all the other claimants who he gets his hands on, because otherwise their very existence stirs up poo poo and undermines the king's power. If Renly had captured Stannis he was absolutely going to either murder him or imprison him for the rest of his life, and if he wasn't then he was too stupid to be King.
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May 20, 2015 05:22
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Bobo the Red posted:Renly also had as much right to the throne as Stannis, since they were both trying to usurp it.
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May 20, 2015 05:51
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Minor tangent to b**k chat that helps to explain why Stannis believes Ned's incest accusation (it's a minor detail from book/season 1 so it's harmless but I spoilered it anyways): Stannis was actually the first person to suspect that Cersei's children weren't fathered by Robert, and he was the one who asked Jon Arryn to help investigate.
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May 20, 2015 06:01
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Sydin posted:Pretty much this. The setting to date has done a pretty good job of showing the brutal realities of medieval era combat. Nobody really uses big ol' impractical weapons except for ceremonial purposes (disregarding the mountain, since he's essentially a giant) and no matter how skilled the combatants are, fights are rarely graceful and end up devolving quickly (Ned getting speared through the leg, Brienne & the Hound's downright brutal brawl). Also, there really aren't that much in the way of accomplished child fighters in the setting, since it's actually kind of hard for a child stand up to the greater experience and physical development of an adult on the battlefield. The closest example we have is Arya, who only killed with the element of surprise and was immediately disarmed in the only 1v1 stand up duel she's ever been in. Additionally what few accomplished female warriors we've seen (Yara, Brienne) have had builds that suggest they can actually fight. Check your eyes re: that halbred: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KEtygXWhY4\ Just steel with some ornamental bits. You're 99% there on the scene. Bronn clowns them, and even goes for a punch instead of a stab. Rescuing Myrcella is still the priority, but he's also trying to avoid starting a war. Dropping bodies in the courtyard messes that up, and it's hardly his plan. The teenage fighters everyone hyped up as amazing were only slightly more effective than Arya vs Sandor last season. That's the point. Episode title vs the actions that transpired. *That said, the choreography wasn't great. As people have said, filming a fight scene on a UNESCO site must have been tricky. Maarak fucked around with this message at 06:07 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 06:02
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One thing about a hypothetical Renly/North alliance is that while they may have won the war, conflicts would rise when the question of the North's independence came up. Renly's plan of there being a King in the North in name only would likely not satisfy the Starks, Tullys, and their vassals, nor would he cede two of the realms after fighting a war of unification. Losing the Riverlands would almost certainly lead to a secession from The Vale, while the Westerlands either falls into chaos or resists absorbtion from the remaining superpowers, all happening as the ironborn continue to raid and harass all sides. If it came to war, it would have been a very long and bloody one.
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May 20, 2015 06:03
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Maarak posted:Check your eyes re: that halbred: The awful choreography distracted me from noticing the terrible Madonna leather armor the first time.
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May 20, 2015 06:13
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Linguica posted:The Sand Snakes fight was bad, not because of hokey choreography, but because they neglected to build up any tension about it and it didn't really feel like there were any stakes I think we have established that they suck for numerous reasons. We don't have to limit it to one or two things when we have a supermarket to pick from. quote:to get broken up by a guy carrying an obsidian halberd twice his size It's actually not all that big for a polearm. hiddenmovement fucked around with this message at 06:57 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 06:46
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Maarak posted:Check your eyes re: that halbred: Ah, fair enough. I just remembered it being big and looking like more of a ceremonial weapon like Ice, so it was a bit jarring when the guy suddenly whipped it out in the fight. quote:You're 99% there on the scene. Bronn clowns them, and even goes for a punch instead of a stab. Rescuing Myrcella is still the priority, but he's also trying to avoid starting a war. Dropping bodies in the courtyard messes that up, and it's hardly his plan. The teenage fighters everyone hyped up as amazing were only slightly more effective than Arya vs Sandor last season. That's the point. Episode title vs the actions that transpired. Except Bronne was almost certainly cut by a poisoned dagger, which means regardless of him holding back or not he got punked out by these idiots.
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May 20, 2015 06:47
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tin can made man posted:One thing about a hypothetical Renly/North alliance is that while they may have won the war, conflicts would rise when the question of the North's independence came up. Renly's plan of there being a King in the North in name only would likely not satisfy the Starks, Tullys, and their vassals, nor would he cede two of the realms after fighting a war of unification. Losing the Riverlands would almost certainly lead to a secession from The Vale, while the Westerlands either falls into chaos or resists absorbtion from the remaining superpowers, all happening as the ironborn continue to raid and harass all sides. The North had been perfectly willing to be a part of the Seven Kingdoms before, and only rebelled because their Lord was publicly shamed and executed. There's hardly a guarantee they wouldn't accept a return to normalcy (given that the alternative is eventually facing the remaining countries united). It's also completely possible Renly would have accepted an amicable parting. There's also no reason to think the Riverlands could secede, because the reason it's constantly being wrecked is that it borders so many other regions. If anything, if the North insisted on being separate, Renly could elevate the Riverlands into a Kingdom, and fortifies the poo poo out of it, putting the North in an incredibly awkward spot if there are ever future disagreements/famines/whatever The Vale has no reason to draw the ire of anyone by seceding, why would they follow the Riverlands after the war if they didn't do it during it? The Westerlands wouldn't necessarily fall into chaos, because Renly would likely put Tyrion in charge even if he had to depose Tywin, because the non-crazies in court all know he's a chill rear end dude. Unless he decided to wipe the whole Lannister name out, he'd likely land on a half decent, savvy ruler somewhere (unlike the Targaryens, Cersei's craziness does not seem to be a family trait). IncendiaC posted:Minor tangent to b**k chat that helps to explain why Stannis believes Ned's incest accusation (it's a minor detail from book/season 1 so it's harmless but I spoilered it anyways): Stannis was actually the first person to suspect that Cersei's children weren't fathered by Robert, and he was the one who asked Jon Arryn to help investigate. Which is all well and good, except if Stannis suspected that, he also never bothered to tell Robert, which is the actual proper way of disinheriting someone. That's the whole loving thing: Stannis or Ned don't get to decide Robert's heir isn't legitimate; Robert does. If Robert dies with Joffrey as heir, then Joffrey is the heir. Stannis and Ned being right doesn't matter anymore, there's no proof, and literally the only reason to side with them is magical knowledge no one in-universe has. Otherwise you get poo poo like this, where an uncle comes in after the king dies, declares the children illegitimate, and has them killed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_in_the_Tower Of course, the biggest lesson to learn from Robert (and the original Targaryens before him) is that the throne belongs to those who fight their way in and sit on it
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May 20, 2015 07:41
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Sydin posted:
It'd be the inverse of Barristan's death, something fit for a song. Hopefully the poison is slow enough to get the ending to the song Bronn was singing, the third song that exists in Westeros.
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May 20, 2015 07:50
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The Riverlands is basically the Poland of Westeros
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May 20, 2015 08:03
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JT Jag posted:The Riverlands is basically the Poland of Westeros When the gently caress is Blackfish going to show up and wreck some havok? Also, did they kill
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May 20, 2015 09:13
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I hope the final scene of the season is the same Cersei flashback that opened the season except it lasts a few seconds longer and allows us to notice that the fortune teller is a badly disguised and smirking Littlefinger in a wig.
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May 20, 2015 09:22
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Sydin posted:When the gently caress is Blackfish going to show up and wreck some havok? The Frey's are holding him in the dungeon. He's still married to the good looking Frey daughter and that marriage gives them a whisker of legitmacy over the Riverlands.
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May 20, 2015 09:35
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:I hope the final scene of the season is the same Cersei flashback that opened the season except it lasts a few seconds longer and allows us to notice that the fortune teller is a badly disguised and smirking Littlefinger in a wig. This imagine is especially funny if you extend it out to flashbacks of Cat's childhood, where her little awkward friend was a fully grown creep the whole drat time
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May 20, 2015 09:38
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Sansa said all sorts of bad things about her family and sided with Joffrey in the first season, the gods are punishing her with a life of misery.
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May 20, 2015 10:00
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I'm personally happy that the Sand Snakes were included in the season, they made for some great gifs to join the ranks of legends like these.  Except with a multi-million dollar budget. Has HBO given a reason why these scenes are so poorly choreographed, or do you think they'll just resort to cutting more than twice a second from now on to try and hide poor choreography better? Maybe introducing a lot of shakey-cam? If people aren't having seizures from the ridiculousness of the rapid cuts clearly they're doing something wrong. Jesto fucked around with this message at 10:09 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 10:06
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hakimashou posted:Sansa said all sorts of bad things about her family and sided with Joffrey in the first season, the gods are punishing her with a life of misery. Arya would regularly fill Sansa's mattress with poo poo. That is crazy town. If Joffrey made Sansa lay down in poo poo it would have been all over the loving news. Sansa, tormented by one psycho after another.
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May 20, 2015 10:09
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On the wildfire being magical: My understanding is kind of yes and no. I think it's kind of magical, but I don't think the Alchemists cast spells on it, exactly. One thing I've learned (and is apparently canon) from playing the Telltale game, is that Game of Thrones universe is full of materials that have unusual properties. A big one in that game is Iron Wood, which they claim the Starks were the main supporters of, that effectively can be crafted and treated in such a way that's it's as tough as a metal, and extremely difficult if not impossible to burn without something like, well, wildfire. So I figured Wildfire is something that just exists in their world, or the components to make it (likely the latter), and the Alchemists are essentially experts on mixing and matching these unusual materials found in Westeros into useful application, including Wildfire. So yeah it's magical and yeah they're manipulating it, but I think it'd be closer to if you gave a real world chemist a bunch of chemicals and material that have amazing properties than sorcery. Jesto posted:I'm personally happy that the Sand Snakes were included in the season, they made for some great gifs to join the ranks of legends like these. I'm starting to think half the problem is "How do we create a fight where 3 ninjas fight an amazing retired mercenary and a guy who has clearly demonstrated he can't fight for poo poo with one hand, and absolutely nobody dies on the spot?" The girl with the whip is the worst, Indiana Jones could probably have taken all 3 of them. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 11:54 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 11:46
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Let's talk about marital rape.
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May 20, 2015 12:09
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Arglebargle III posted:Let's talk about marital rape. Let's be honest, if we lived in medieval times we all would have raped a Sansa. Even those of us who are homos. No homo.
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May 20, 2015 12:19
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How do you prove marital rape?
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May 20, 2015 12:32
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Arglebargle III posted:How do you prove marital rape? You ask the broken shell of a tortured prisoner who witnessed it
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May 20, 2015 12:33
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Hey Bobo, I really like Stannis.
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May 20, 2015 12:35
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Away all Goats posted:You ask the broken shell of a tortured prisoner who witnessed it If you rape your wife in medieval times and there isn't a traumatized eunuch to see it, does it make a sound? Seriously, though, it'd be pretty cool if Theon tries to kill Ramsay, proves to be too chickenshit, and then Sansa stabs Ramsay in the neck with a cheese knife or something. I guess Brienne has to get involved somehow, though. Otherwise, why have we been following her at all this season?
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May 20, 2015 12:51
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