Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: Looks like we're the grognards, now.

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Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

thespaceinvader posted:

Barbs should generally go STR>DEX>Whatever because otherwise their ACs tend to suck.

Or hybrid cleric, then it's not an issue.

This here is all great advice. If you do go |Cleric, make your E1 Mighty Hew and your D1 Weapon of the Gods then forget about changing them for pretty much the rest of the life of the character.

NB: it's only one immediate per round, not per turn.

Derp, I always mix up my round/turn terminology.

Hybrid Cleric is a strong choice, yeah, but I don't like to advise hybrids for people who aren't really familiar with system, cause it can be a huge pain in the rear end. It's definitely a strong option if you want more healing capability, though. Since I have nothing better to do today, here's a Barbarian|Cleric.

code:

Dragonborn, Barbarian|Cleric, Draeven Marauder
Hybrid Cleric: Battle Cleric's Lore
Hybrid Talent: Feral Might
Feral Might: Thaneborn Triumph
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons
Dragonborn Subrace: Standard Dragonborn Racial Traits
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 18.
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13.

AC: 27 Fort: 26 Reflex: 19 Will: 24
HP: 77 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +12, Intimidate +16, Athletics +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +4, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5, History +6, 
Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +4, Stealth +5, Streetwise +9, Thievery +5

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge)
Level 2: Spear Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 8: Student of the Sword
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Deadly Axe

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid encounter 1: Mighty Hew
Hybrid daily 1: Shield of the Gods
Hybrid utility 2: Shrug It Off
Hybrid encounter 3: Shatterbone Strike
Hybrid daily 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane
Hybrid utility 6: Bastion of Health
Hybrid encounter 7: Curtain of Steel
Hybrid daily 9: Oak Hammer Rage
Hybrid utility 10: Wellspring of Renewal
 
ITEMS
Bloodiron Drakescale Armor +2, Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Dread Gouge +2, Strikebacks (heroic tier)

Same basic principle, now with more AC and added healing capability. Slightly more accurate/damaging because Battle Cleric's Lore lets you ignore Dexterity and that allows you to take a natural 18 in strength.

# ? May 19, 2015 19:22

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# ? May 9, 2024 11:44

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

First off, thanks to everyone for the advice.

Secondly, I forgot to mention we get inherent bonuses, and a free expertise and improved defenses. Just in-case that changes things, but I can already see how all this will help and begun implementing changes.

Thank you, again.

# ? May 19, 2015 19:46

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

That frees up two feats from either build.

For my pure barbarian build, I would look at picking up Deadly Rage and Improved Initiative, or maybe getting a Skill Power. There are some nice picks by level 10. Headsman's Chop is a great pick if somebody in the group knocks people prone all the time. This is also a fairly good place to pick up any sort of dragonbreath/flavor feats or the like that you want; the build as-is is pretty solid so the two bonus feats can be basically whatever you want and you'll be good.

The same thing applies to the Barbarian|Cleric, but that build might also consider Defensive Healing Word, Battle Healer, or maybe Breath of Life.

# ? May 19, 2015 20:19

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Khizan posted:

code:

Dragonborn, Barbarian|Cleric, Draeven Marauder
Hybrid Cleric: Battle Cleric's Lore
Hybrid Talent: Feral Might
Feral Might: Thaneborn Triumph
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons
Dragonborn Subrace: Standard Dragonborn Racial Traits
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 18.
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13.

AC: 27 Fort: 26 Reflex: 19 Will: 24
HP: 77 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +12, Intimidate +16, Athletics +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +4, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5, History +6, 
Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +4, Stealth +5, Streetwise +9, Thievery +5

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge)
Level 2: Spear Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 8: Student of the Sword
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Deadly Axe

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Hybrid encounter 1: Mighty Hew
Hybrid daily 1: Shield of the Gods
Hybrid utility 2: Shrug It Off
Hybrid encounter 3: Shatterbone Strike
Hybrid daily 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane
Hybrid utility 6: Bastion of Health
Hybrid encounter 7: Curtain of Steel
Hybrid daily 9: Oak Hammer Rage
Hybrid utility 10: Wellspring of Renewal
 
ITEMS
Bloodiron Drakescale Armor +2, Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Dread Gouge +2, Strikebacks (heroic tier)

|Cleric on STR primary strikers is, as previously noted, easy. You take 3 level one powers and a single utility, then more or less forget you're a hybrid unless you want to take Tactical Warpriest which is actually a great PP.

Section Z posted:

I know it's probably not an optimal weapon but I like the Double Axe because it's the only way to get a 1d10 offhand weapon I can recall off the top of my head.

A pal of mine was screwing around with a Bugbear(gets to use upsized weapons) with a Double axe to turn this into a 1d12 offhand weapon for their Tempest Fighter just for the 'biggest offhand weapon possible" principle of the matter (Gotta get that extra +1 damage for offhand! )

As for Divine Boons and similar, me and my pals all love Crimson Determination(level 4, 14, 24). because we are all suckers for "extra damaged vs bloodied " and it means we don't need to fill our hand slots with Gauntlets Of Blood (same price). I guess what I'm saying is we are all easily amused, and I constantly typo the word Gauntlet as gauntler.

EDIT: Mordenkrad is loving sweet though. Giant loving spiked hammer you can't roll lower than 4 on damage with.

Honestly, no offence intended (it's great that you're all having a good time with your game and all that) but this is all pretty terrible advice for anyone who's interested in optimisation.

Also, biggest off-hand weapon [W] in the game is, I believe, 2d10b2 - though the weapon table doesn't actually GO above 2d6 so that's kind of extrapolating. Bugbear Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender with a Dwarven Thrower Gouge or Mordenkrad (on which note, Gouge almost always beats Mordenkrad because the dual typing, especially to spear, is just obscene. Warshovels FTW). Optimising around [W] is pretty terrible though at higher levels because [W] becomes less and less of your damage, percentage-wise, as you level.

Optimal double weapon is MC Spiked Chain if you can afford the MC slot, otherwise double sword or Staff with Staff FIghting and Staff Expertise. Optimal for boons is an interesting one because it depends whether you subscribe to LFR-style item rules, limiting you to only one active boon at a time. If so, probably the one that gives you an immediate interrupt to hit someone, or Corellon's Boon are closing on the best ones depending on your build. If you're not limited, go frigging nuts there are a tonne of neat boons out there. DMs, boons are way more interesting than items IME and IMO; give more boons.

Covok posted:

First off, thanks to everyone for the advice.

Secondly, I forgot to mention we get inherent bonuses, and a free expertise and improved defenses. Just in-case that changes things, but I can already see how all this will help and begun implementing changes.

Thank you, again.

Doesn't change much, but potentially gives you more feat space to do interesting things with in the build. Plenty of things to try!

# ? May 19, 2015 20:35

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

So, I followed the advice in the thread and made this, but I'm wondering what I should pick as my Paragon Path, if it's not too much trouble to ask about that.

# ? May 19, 2015 22:48

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Barbs have few PPs that are particularly stellar. Fortunately Fighter has some good ones.

Firstly, are you expecting to make it to Epic, and if so would your DM be open to you changing PP at that stage? if so, Draeven Marauder is reasonably strong for a barb, given you're using a gouge, as it will double your crit range and you like critting.

Otherwise, Mithral Arm (Dragonborn native PP) is very solid. Also worth looking at Kensei if you want boring mechanical bonuses that are very strong, or Dreadnought for a significant chunk of toughness and a double attack. If you take either Draeven Marauder or Kensei, definitely take Reserve Maneuver as an 11th level feat or retrain; you'll want to change out the terrible PP encounter powers for a decent class power instead.

Thundering Howl should probably be your E3 (it gets two damage rolls, so you get all your static bonuses twice). Wellspring of Renewal isn't a great power, either, but I'm not sure offhand what's better in the Barb's arsenal.

# ? May 19, 2015 23:01

Section Z: Oct 1, 2008; Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?; Pillbug

thespaceinvader posted:

|Cleric on STR primary strikers is, as previously noted, easy. You take 3 level one powers and a single utility, then more or less forget you're a hybrid unless you want to take Tactical Warpriest which is actually a great PP.

Honestly, no offence intended (it's great that you're all having a good time with your game and all that) but this is all pretty terrible advice for anyone who's interested in optimisation.

Also, biggest off-hand weapon [W] in the game is, I believe, 2d10b2 - though the weapon table doesn't actually GO above 2d6 so that's kind of extrapolating. Bugbear Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender with a Dwarven Thrower Gouge or Mordenkrad (on which note, Gouge almost always beats Mordenkrad because the dual typing, especially to spear, is just obscene. Warshovels FTW). Optimising around [W] is pretty terrible though at higher levels because [W] becomes less and less of your damage, percentage-wise, as you level.

Optimal double weapon is MC Spiked Chain if you can afford the MC slot, otherwise double sword or Staff with Staff FIghting and Staff Expertise. Optimal for boons is an interesting one because it depends whether you subscribe to LFR-style item rules, limiting you to only one active boon at a time. If so, probably the one that gives you an immediate interrupt to hit someone, or Corellon's Boon are closing on the best ones depending on your build. If you're not limited, go frigging nuts there are a tonne of neat boons out there. DMs, boons are way more interesting than items IME and IMO; give more boons.

Doesn't change much, but potentially gives you more feat space to do interesting things with in the build. Plenty of things to try!

Yeah, that is pretty loving amazing. Though I meant that the double axe was the biggest weapon with the offhand keyword baked into it, that I know of, which was the joke point. I totally agree that dual wielding a pair of the biggest weapons in the game is much more impressive.

I did say it probably wasn't optimal, after all :downs:

# ? May 19, 2015 23:27

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

thespaceinvader posted:

Barbs have few PPs that are particularly stellar. Fortunately Fighter has some good ones.

Firstly, are you expecting to make it to Epic, and if so would your DM be open to you changing PP at that stage? if so, Draeven Marauder is reasonably strong for a barb, given you're using a gouge, as it will double your crit range and you like critting.

Otherwise, Mithral Arm (Dragonborn native PP) is very solid. Also worth looking at Kensei if you want boring mechanical bonuses that are very strong, or Dreadnought for a significant chunk of toughness and a double attack. If you take either Draeven Marauder or Kensei, definitely take Reserve Maneuver as an 11th level feat or retrain; you'll want to change out the terrible PP encounter powers for a decent class power instead.

Thundering Howl should probably be your E3 (it gets two damage rolls, so you get all your static bonuses twice). Wellspring of Renewal isn't a great power, either, but I'm not sure offhand what's better in the Barb's arsenal.

Oh! That's what Draeven Marauder was! I saw on the suggestions, but thought it was a background.

To answer your question, I doubt we're making it to epic. Then again, I didn't think the game was going to go on for over a year and jump systems so...what do I know? Knowing Zach, he'd probably let me change Paragon Paths, if we do make Epic.

Edit: Also, one of the other players mentioned a background or something that really minimized the necessity of CON.

# ? May 19, 2015 23:30

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

These are what I would consider, in order of preference.

Draeven Marauder: The L11 feature gives you a 19-20 crit range with spears, which applies to your Gouge due to it being a Spear|Axe hybrid. The L16 is basically Rampage-1, so it's a waste, but getting extended crit range on your gouge without using your weapon enchantment is worth it imo. This is my favorite because big giant crits are fun and most people never make it to Epic. If you decide not to do this one, I'd switch out the Deadly Axe feat for something else, maybe Charging Rampage. This gets drastically less useful come Epic, but in my experience very few games make it to Epic.
Bear Warrior: Turn into a werebear when you rage. Solid pick, increases personal tankiness when raging. Decent powers. The L16 makes crits push the enemy, so you can crit and then Charging Rampage them.
Mithral Arm: The Dragonborn racial PP. Very strong pick. Encounter power is any class encounter power L7 or less. I suggest Fearsome Smash.
Gladiator Champion: Splash damage when you bloody an enemy, double rolls if you AP while bloodied, an L16 feature that prevents enemies from shifting away from you, and an E11 that's an okay setup power. Fairly solid.
Dreadnought: Increases your health by 10, lets you burn 10 health to automatically save against any save-ends effect. Decent pick.
Kensai(Player's Handbook): Incredibly boring, horrible power, but +1 attack at all times is a very strong pick. I include this only because somebody will mention it if I do not, but you should know that you if you pick this you have no soul.

thespaceinvader posted:

Thundering Howl should probably be your E3 (it gets two damage rolls, so you get all your static bonuses twice). Wellspring of Renewal isn't a great power, either, but I'm not sure offhand what's better in the Barb's arsenal.

I've never agreed with that interpretation of Thundering Howl, and anyways that power got sacrificed for Rain of Blows since I didn't want to give up the Curtain of Steel. And, yeah, looking back over the powers at U10 I'd probably go for Barbaric Offering(save with +Cha bonus when you bloody/kill something) or Howl of the Alpha Wolf(move action, slide ally/allies 2 and you shift 3).

# ? May 19, 2015 23:37

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Covok posted:

Oh! That's what Draeven Marauder was! I saw on the suggestions, but thought it was a background.

To answer your question, I doubt we're making it to epic. Then again, I didn't think the game was going to go on for over a year and jump systems so...what do I know? Knowing Zach, he'd probably let me change Paragon Paths, if we do make Epic.

Edit: Also, one of the other players mentioned a background or something that really minimized the necessity of CON.

Born Under a Bad Sign or Auspicious Birth backgrounds. They make your HP based on your highest stat rather than CON - but not your surges. Usually they'll gain you around 10HP total over the life of the character, and a maximum of 20. Unless there's something you really need to do with your background (there isn't really) those are a default position.

Given your description I'd probably go with Draeven Marauder; expanded crits are fun.

Khizan posted:

These are what I would consider, in order of preference.

Draeven Marauder: The L11 feature gives you a 19-20 crit range with spears, which applies to your Gouge due to it being a Spear|Axe hybrid. The L16 is basically Rampage-1, so it's a waste, but getting extended crit range on your gouge without using your weapon enchantment is worth it imo. This is my favorite because big giant crits are fun and most people never make it to Epic. If you decide not to do this one, I'd switch out the Deadly Axe feat for something else, maybe Charging Rampage. This gets drastically less useful come Epic, but in my experience very few games make it to Epic.

Bear Warrior: Turn into a werebear when you rage. Solid pick, increases personal tankiness when raging. Decent powers. The L16 makes crits push the enemy, so you can crit and then Charging Rampage them.

Mithral Arm: The Dragonborn racial PP. Very strong pick. Encounter power is any class encounter power L7 or less. I suggest Fearsome Smash.

Gladiator Champion: Splash damage when you bloody an enemy, double rolls if you AP while bloodied, an L16 feature that prevents enemies from shifting away from you, and an E11 that's an okay setup power. Fairly solid.

Dreadnought: Increases your health by 10, lets you burn 10 health to automatically save against any save-ends effect. Decent pick.

Kensai(Player's Handbook): Incredibly boring, horrible power, but +1 attack at all times is a very strong pick. I include this only because somebody will mention it if I do not, but you should know that you if you pick this you have no soul.

I've never agreed with that interpretation of Thundering Howl, and anyways that power got sacrificed for Rain of Blows since I didn't want to give up the Curtain of Steel. And, yeah, looking back over the powers at U10 I'd probably go for Barbaric Offering(save with +Cha bonus when you bloody/kill something) or Howl of the Alpha Wolf(move action, slide ally/allies 2 and you shift 3).

Fair enough. Given that interpretation a swap for RoB is probably worth it.

# ? May 20, 2015 17:57

berenzen: Jan 23, 2012

Is there any serious harm in baking in BuaBS/Auspicious Birth right into the classes? I'm looking at running Zeitgeist campaign when I get a bit more time, and like spaceinvader said, it's not like it ends up being a ton of HP over a character lifetime.

# ? May 20, 2015 21:15

Madmarker: Jan 7, 2007

berenzen posted:

Is there any serious harm in baking in BuaBS/Auspicious Birth right into the classes? I'm looking at running Zeitgeist campaign when I get a bit more time, and like spaceinvader said, it's not like it ends up being a ton of HP over a character lifetime.

None at all. It raises character power level slightly but this isn't really a problem.

# ? May 20, 2015 21:22

Fumaofthelake: Dec 30, 2004; Is it handsome in here, or is it just me?

What are some good, semi-broken options for building a heroic tier half-elf cleric? Looking to be primary healer and be able to do at least respectable radiant/single target damage and a little field management.

I assume the wants that I outlined are suboptimal, but it's the flavor / general role I'd like to stick with.

# ? May 20, 2015 21:57

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

There aren't any particularly broken options in Clerics, at least not until Morninglord starts happening.

What you want is pretty reasonable, TBH.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:05

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

Yeah, you might do well as a Laser Cleric, i.e. one that mostly uses Wisdom-based implement powers to wreck things as opposed to the strength/weapon-based Battle Cleric. I'd pick up the at-will Lance of Faith and the Domain Feat Power of Sun so that you can inflict radiant vulnerability on your foes and then convince your friends/party members to stock up on radiant options.

Edit: Either way pick up Battle Cleric's Lore because scale proficiency AND a +2 shield bonus is way, way, way too good to pass up ever.

Mecha Gojira fucked around with this message at 22:16 on May 20, 2015

# ? May 20, 2015 22:13

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Also, the +2 to hit for a round is way better than a small amount of HP.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:20

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

Hell, if you ever want to hybrid anything, hybrid with Cleric. They get Battle Cleric's Lore as a class option without having to pick up Hybrid Training. So you get scale proficiency, a +2 shield bonus, and allies get +2 to hit when you heal them. Then combine with, say, an insane striker like Ranger or Barbarian.

Like, I know you're trying to build a primary healer, but having one less use of your Healing Word can be made up for with the right utility choices, and then you can just go full hog wild on single target damage. If it has to be radiant damage, just pick up a Sunblade.

I just built a hybrid Cleric/Ranger Warforged who wears plate armor (Mithral plating of course since it removes the speed penalty). Motherfucker has striker damage, Defender AC, and of course pretty good healing.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:29

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Alternatively, hybridding cleric with another leader works out nicely. Cleric|Shaman is nice. Cleric|Warlord is decent too. You can probably do something with Cleric|Bard or Cleric|Artificer too. BCL is great, and having no real secondary (Clerics have a LOT of power based on WIS as a secondary) allows you to hybrid with a bunch of stuff, especially as you can MC Invoker for a great INT-primary leader PP with Flame of Hope.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:43

Fumaofthelake: Dec 30, 2004; Is it handsome in here, or is it just me?

Sounds good, thanks for the suggestions.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:47

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

Fumaofthelake posted:

What are some good, semi-broken options for building a heroic tier half-elf cleric? Looking to be primary healer and be able to do at least respectable radiant/single target damage and a little field management.

I assume the wants that I outlined are suboptimal, but it's the flavor / general role I'd like to stick with.

Generally speaking, I find Clerics incredibly boring to play; the best way to play a Cleric is as Cleric|X and largely pretend that you are not a Cleric until somebody needs a heal. If you're set on Half-Elf I'd probably roll Cleric|Avenger Cleric|Invoker depending on whether you want more control or more damage, because Con/Wis doesn't have very many good matchups. Maybe Conlock|Cleric could be interesting.

# ? May 20, 2015 23:47

Fumaofthelake: Dec 30, 2004; Is it handsome in here, or is it just me?

Khizan posted:

Generally speaking, I find Clerics incredibly boring to play; the best way to play a Cleric is as Cleric|X and largely pretend that you are not a Cleric until somebody needs a heal. If you're set on Half-Elf I'd probably roll Cleric|Avenger Cleric|Invoker depending on whether you want more control or more damage, because Con/Wis doesn't have very many good matchups. Maybe Conlock|Cleric could be interesting.

I'm not really set on cleric, but I am pretty set on healing. Do you have any feelings on more interesting alternatives for healers?

# ? May 21, 2015 00:03

RPZip: Feb 6, 2009; WORDS IN THE HEART
CANNOT BE TAKEN

berenzen posted:

Is there any serious harm in baking in BuaBS/Auspicious Birth right into the classes? I'm looking at running Zeitgeist campaign when I get a bit more time, and like spaceinvader said, it's not like it ends up being a ton of HP over a character lifetime.

It's pretty bad design. It comparatively weakens CON primary classes (Some Warlocks, Battleminds) and CON secondary classes (loads of things), and it's not like those classes (CON primary in particular) were especially powerhouses before. It also removes one of the good things backgrounds are used for, namely patching the sometimes over-restrictive class skill lists and giving people more flexibility in character design. Most games I've seen ban it, which is the right decision I think.

# ? May 21, 2015 00:54

Rohan Kishibe: Oct 29, 2011; Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.

RPZip posted:

It also removes one of the good things backgrounds are used for, namely patching the sometimes over-restrictive class skill lists and giving people more flexibility in character design. Most games I've seen ban it, which is the right decision I think.

I don't think this part is actually an issue, as the whole point of baking the effects of Born Under a Bad Sign/Auspicious Birth, presumably, means that the background slot is still open for use. The effect of those two options is too good, which is a bad design as you're kind of loving yourself over if you don't take it. Either bake it in or chuck it out.

# ? May 21, 2015 01:04

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

Fumaofthelake posted:

I'm not really set on cleric, but I am pretty set on healing. Do you have any feelings on more interesting alternatives for healers?

Warlord. Warlord. Warlord.

# ? May 21, 2015 01:10

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

Fumaofthelake posted:

I'm not really set on cleric, but I am pretty set on healing. Do you have any feelings on more interesting alternatives for healers?

If you're set on Half-Elf you might want to look at Bard. It's got some fun powers and some really good healing potential. Shaman(wis) and Ardent(cha) are also interesting/good picks if you can stand the fiddliness of the spirit companion and power points, respectively.

Warlord is easily my favorite leader in the game. Lots of enable, lots of granted attacks, lots of battlefield control. It's Str-primary, though, so it doesn't play that nicely with Half-Elf.

This isn't to say that Clerics are bad, mind you; Clerics are a fairly powerful pick and lots of people enjoy them. I just find most of their powers uninteresting. You've got an awful lot of granted heals/saves and an awful lot of single target minor-disable type stuff so it's pretty easy to go through a fight as a Cleric and feel like you accomplished fuckall. Hybrid Cleric is strong because you basically lose one Healing Word to gain a lot more potential; the burst of a Cleric|Avenger/Barbarian/Ranger can easily save your party more HP than your extra Healing Word would have granted.

Khizan fucked around with this message at 01:14 on May 21, 2015

# ? May 21, 2015 01:12

RPZip: Feb 6, 2009; WORDS IN THE HEART
CANNOT BE TAKEN

Prison Warden posted:

I don't think this part is actually an issue, as the whole point of baking the effects of Born Under a Bad Sign/Auspicious Birth, presumably, means that the background slot is still open for use. The effect of those two options is too good, which is a bad design as you're kind of loving yourself over if you don't take it. Either bake it in or chuck it out.

Sorry, I meant that the background itself is bad design, although you're right that if it's baked in you regain the skill list flexibility.

# ? May 21, 2015 01:34

Section Z: Oct 1, 2008; Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?; Pillbug

I'm sorry, I'm too busy taking a BG that gives me a free military weapon proficiency on my Rouge for Rapier prof without a feat to take "Use another stat for your base HP" Born under a bad sign.

Whoo! Rapiers were errated to be military instead of Superior!... Oh wait Rogues still don't come with Rapier proficiency gently caress. I think rapiers are cool and wanted one regardless of optimal weapons :argh:

Speaking of oddities with Rouge weaponry, sneak attack. A lot of Rogue powers can use any crossbow but Sneak attack only mentions hand crossbows. Sneak attack mentions shortbows but you don't start with proficiency and a good chunk of rogue powers specify "Light blade, sling, or crossbow".

Do most people just houserule this clusterfuck entirely and just hand people rapiers and full shortbow functionality? Or just point people to the "Unlock shortbow prof and shortbow usage on rogue powers (if you worship sehanine)" Moonbow Stalker feat if they want to use a shortbow that bad outside of ranged basic attacks (after unlocking proficiency).

# ? May 21, 2015 02:20

girl dick energy: Sep 30, 2009; You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Section Z posted:

I'm sorry, I'm too busy taking a BG that gives me a free military weapon proficiency on my Rouge for Rapier prof without a feat to take "Use another stat for your base HP" Born under a bad sign.

Whoo! Rapiers were errated to be military instead of Superior!... Oh wait Rogues still don't come with Rapier proficiency gently caress. I think rapiers are cool and wanted one regardless of optimal weapons

Speaking of oddities with Rouge weaponry, sneak attack. A lot of Rogue powers can use any crossbow but Sneak attack only mentions hand crossbows. Sneak attack mentions shortbows but you don't start with proficiency and a good chunk of rogue powers specify "Light blade, sling, or crossbow".

Do most people just houserule this clusterfuck entirely and just hand people rapiers and full shortbow functionality? Or just point people to the "Unlock shortbow prof and shortbow usage on rogue powers (if you worship sehanine)" Moonbow Stalker feat if they want to use a shortbow that bad outside of ranged basic attacks (after unlocking proficiency).

If I remember correctly, the "hand crossbows only" thing is an errata to fix a "broken" build that wasn't actually that broken?

# ? May 21, 2015 02:31

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

Strictly speaking if you want the most powerful leader in the game it's warlord, because you grant free attacks to the striker. Outside of that warlord is pretty bleh and if you find having other people take your turns boring, it's even more bleh. Warlord is simply the charop choice, nothing else it does besides constant access to bonus attacks is that interesting (though before long these are insanely powerful). Warlord free attack powers are also nice if you hybrid because they're not tied to your ability scores, someone else is making the attack.

If you want the best healer (to the point of being overkill) it's cleric. It's really hard to build a cleric that isn't "good healing, good single target damage." Cleric is the go-to broken hybriding option because of the Battle Cleric class option.

The bard is the most versatile leader in the game (if not in fact the all-out most versatile class) and can be played in just about any way that any other leader can.

Most of the other leaders are at best merely OK.

The hit point backgrounds are vastly overrated and aren't actually that important after about level 3, and you start seeing better returns from backgrounds that improve particularly useful skills, that help out certain builds, or that drop in interesting features.

Cool backgrounds that aren't just +2 to skill:

Crusading Zealot (bonus to saving throws until you fail, which is good if you are doing a saving throw build)
Imbuer (creation rituals)
Trained from Birth for a Specific Prophecy (re-roll initiative, very nice if you are trying to focus on initiative for alpha striking and control)
Warsmith (creation rituals)
Akanul (stacking resistance!)

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3084151

A lot of the other things tend to be 3E-style "extremely situational lovely benefit" stuff.

Name Change fucked around with this message at 10:23 on May 26, 2015

# ? May 21, 2015 10:18

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Warlord is super popular on charopsy stuff because it's assume the whole group is optimized and built for it. On a group that doesn't have a ton of MBA devotees the warlord gets quite a bit weaker. Personally my go-to always good leader is Artificer, because everyone can enjoy +attack +damage being vomited onto them every goddamn round.

# ? May 21, 2015 12:41

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

Warlord is super popular on charopsy stuff because it's assume the whole group is optimized and built for it. On a group that doesn't have a ton of MBA devotees the warlord gets quite a bit weaker. Personally my go-to always good leader is Artificer, because everyone can enjoy +attack +damage being vomited onto them every goddamn round.

Also poo poo tons of temp HP and free transfer of healing surges.

# ? May 21, 2015 13:05

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

OneThousandMonkeys posted:

Strictly speaking if you want the most powerful leader in the game it's warlord, because you grant free attacks to the striker. Outside of that warlord is pretty bleh and if you find having other people take your turns boring, it's even more bleh. Warlord is simply the charop choice, nothing else it does besides constant access to bonus attacks is that interesting (though before long these are insanely powerful).

For the record, the other thing the Warlord does is the Bravura Warlord. The ridiculously rash guy who gets the enemy to attack them, and forces nasty choices on them. If you've even a standard fighter in the party it's great fun and pretty interesting as to when you take the risks and when you play safely. The lazy warlord is better in a razor-optimised party, but the Bravelord can keep up with an average party and, if you like that sort of thing, is extremely fun. (If you look at Brash Assault and it immediately turns you off, even with the Harlequin Style feat, play something else).

# ? May 21, 2015 14:13

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

dwarf74 posted:

Also poo poo tons of temp HP and free transfer of healing surges.

My love for the artificer basically boils down to the magic "I build a trampoline in the middle of the battlefield so everyone can jump around like a lunatic" power.

# ? May 21, 2015 15:09

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

I played an Inspiring Warlord for a campaign, and I wouldn't call it boring. Then again, I guess by sheer nature of being an inspiring Warlord with that feature that gives you access to shields and the feat for scale, he was unoptomized. Yeah, his turn was directing the fighter and barbarian to smash face, but as a sword and shield character, he'd be up in the fray, even playing off defender. Where he really shined, though, were his off turn attacks. By the end of heroic he had three encounter immediate actions including Strikebacks, meaning he could dish out even more punishment without relying entirely on his party to do it for him. Though the best was the reaction that gives you and a friend (with free movement if needed!) an MBA against the rear end in a top hat who dared to hit you.

# ? May 21, 2015 16:45

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

neonchameleon posted:

For the record, the other thing the Warlord does is the Bravura Warlord. The ridiculously rash guy who gets the enemy to attack them, and forces nasty choices on them. If you've even a standard fighter in the party it's great fun and pretty interesting as to when you take the risks and when you play safely. The lazy warlord is better in a razor-optimised party, but the Bravelord can keep up with an average party and, if you like that sort of thing, is extremely fun. (If you look at Brash Assault and it immediately turns you off, even with the Harlequin Style feat, play something else).

Bravura Warlord relies heavily on a good interaction with your DM. When I was playing a taclord weekly, my DM was the sort that would see my traps to generate monster OAs that would trigger stuff for me, and then have the mindless monsters cleverly refuse to make OAs, etc. (eventually I just retrained so I didn't have a single ability that relied on enemy decision making) If your DM is willing to occasionally run the monsters as monsters and not as chess pieces, Bravelord gets really fun.

# ? May 21, 2015 17:22

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Bards are decent attack granters, and while they don't have the sheer attack-boosting power of the warlord when they do so, they have a bunch of stuff that lets them grant MBAs as immediate actions which is A) abusable and B) hilarious

# ? May 21, 2015 18:59

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

OneThousandMonkeys posted:

Strictly speaking if you want the most powerful leader in the game it's warlord, because you grant free attacks to the striker. Outside of that warlord is pretty bleh and if you find having other people take your turns boring, it's even more bleh. Warlord is simply the charop choice, nothing else it does besides constant access to bonus attacks is that interesting (though before long these are insanely powerful). Warlord free attack powers are also nice if you hybrid because they're not tied to your ability scores, someone else is making the attack.

The thing about the Warlord is that, while I might not be doing the real damage, it never leaves me in a place where I look back on a fight and feel useless. I set up the bonus attacks, shifted the battlefield, and had an impact on the fight. I never felt like I was just standing in the back of the room spamming Smite, which is what Clerics end up feeling like to me.

# ? May 21, 2015 19:18

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

I mean it more or less boils down to some leaders being kinda specialized compared to the other rolls. A wizard is always going to be a boss controller no matter what the party set up is, but a warlord in a group with a monk, a swordmage, and a sorcerer, probably won't get a whole lot of bang for their buck. On the other hand, that warlord in a group with a fighter, a barbarian, and a strength rogue is going to do absurdly better then almost any other leader.

# ? May 21, 2015 21:10

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

A Warlord with that RBA granter in a group with a Fire Elemental Sorcerer is basically the happiest Warlord in the world.

# ? May 21, 2015 21:24

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# ? May 9, 2024 11:44

Section Z: Oct 1, 2008; Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?; Pillbug

ProfessorCirno posted:

Personally my go-to always good leader is Artificer, because everyone can enjoy +attack +damage being vomited onto them every goddamn round.

dwarf74 posted:

Also poo poo tons of temp HP and free transfer of healing surges.

I loving love this and it makes my pal's Pacifist cleric's life so much easier when the party fighter (Kobold obsessed with collecting weapons in this case) can cash in for their Surge value+CON in THP as a free action. It's no replacement for a Cleric from a turbo healing standpoint, but god drat does it feel like it tag teams with a cleric so good. We also joke about how many times my Artificier has been able to heal injured NPCs who have no heal surges for a cleric to use. "Escort this guy with 3 hitpoints we are not allowed to heal normally? Nah, you get full HP."

Magic Weapon also fits my preferred support mentality because you have a nice attack for yourself that means piles of buffs for your friends if you hit. I can totally admit the mechanical utility of a good warlord, it just doesn't fit my mindset even when it is not a party that has next to nothing in basic attacks.

I admit I probably would not enjoy Artificer so much if I didn't have crossbow caster. Or at least a Swordmage Multiclass just so I'm not juggling implements in one hand and simple weapons in the other.

# ? May 21, 2015 21:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: Looks like we're the grognards, now.

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