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BULBASAUR posted:I disagree. Unbound is a brilliant crutch GW created to act as an easy 'out' for any balance things that upsets players. Don't like something we just did? No problem! Just play unbound! Have a conversation! Forge your narrative! Yeah, it's nothing to worry about. Hang out for a bit, maybe get a couple of drinks in your opponent, casually bring up there's a list you want to experiment with. "Naw, it's not overpowered, don't worry about it. We're just forging a narrative, be cool. Let me buy you another drink."
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May 21, 2015 05:39
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"Guess you'll have to have a conversation before your game!"
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I'm looking for 2-3 old-style Eldar Jetbikes, as well as 4 plastic Eldar Heavy Weapon shields (just the shield bits). Looking to convert a Shining Spear unit up, but can't find those kits/bits affordably on ebay. Anybody have those they'd be willing to donate, swap or sell? You can PM me or email p.h.dolan at gmail dot com. As much as I tend to look the other way when it comes to GW's terrible parts, the recent Eldar Codex release bummed me out a bunch. The rules look fine, I just don't want to have to buy a new book and re-write all my lists and re-learn the rules. Then right on its heels comes the Adeptus Mechanicus split into two separate books to buy, and now a new Space Marine book right on the heels of the last. My brother and I are pretty officially not keeping up with new rules any more and will keep using the old books. He wanted to add a small Mechanicus allied detachment, but the split books are making it annoying. We'll probably just wind up mixing the units and treating it as one book. Which brings me to the next point: ThNextGreenLantern posted:Yeah, it's nothing to worry about. Hang out for a bit, maybe get a couple of drinks in your opponent, casually bring up there's a list you want to experiment with.   Now I'm back to the serious business of painting daemon trees and summoned skeletons for 40k.
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May 21, 2015 05:51
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I know this isn't the other thread but let's call a spade a spade, formations and detachments are cash grabs. 'Look, you've already got most of these models, what's a mob of Grots or two? You'll get a better version of Waaagh and you definitely want that.'
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May 21, 2015 06:00
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BlackIronHeart posted:I know this isn't the other thread but let's call a spade a spade, formations and detachments are cash grabs. I agree, but I think they're exactly the same kind of cash grab as Unbound, and perhaps a response to player resistance to Unbound (I didn't come up with the second half but it makes sense to me).
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May 21, 2015 06:08
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There's decent ways to do 'themed list with bonuses' if you're sincerely just going for the gameplay interest it can provide, but as usual GW has pretty much no bona fides left.
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May 21, 2015 06:12
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BuffaloChicken posted:I'm looking for 2-3 old-style Eldar Jetbikes, as well as 4 plastic Eldar Heavy Weapon shields (just the shield bits). Looking to convert a Shining Spear unit up, but can't find those kits/bits affordably on ebay. Anybody have those they'd be willing to donate, swap or sell? You can PM me or email p.h.dolan at gmail dot com. I feel exactly the same way as you and your brother about all of these new books, especially since I already like the existing Space Marine book so much. Also PokePong looks amazing. You are amazing. Edit: except I don't think the Eldar rules "look fine." Although we've had a friendly talk with our Eldar player and he will be careful what he buys.
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May 21, 2015 06:18
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BuffaloChicken posted:(THREAD HERE): You are literally the best ham.
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May 21, 2015 07:21
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Unbound is fine in some situations. My gaming group play once a year, and I was going to do all-Wraith Eldar. The new book came out and completely removed that option, but with Unbound it didn't matter at all. The Guard lose ObSec which is big, but gain all that lovely lovely D instead. If it turns out that all Wraith is too nasty for the opponents, then our GM will simply give them some extra toys or rules to balance it out.
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May 21, 2015 09:16
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Lungboy posted:Unbound is fine in some situations. My gaming group play once a year, and I was going to do all-Wraith Eldar. The new book came out and completely removed that option, but with Unbound it didn't matter at all. The Guard lose ObSec which is big, but gain all that lovely lovely D instead. If it turns out that all Wraith is too nasty for the opponents, then our GM will simply give them some extra toys or rules to balance it out. You've kinda hit on exactly why people don't like it tho'; GW has just given up entirely with the prospect of making a game apart from a vehicle to buy plastic mans. With the advent of Unbound, and then Beerhammer becoming 'Just add rules or whatever to balance it, idk' you're only one step off bashing plastic barbies against one another to decide who wins. Then 6 months later, those models you bought will be not directly invalidated, but the next Hot poo poo™ will handily happen to wipe them off the board in a fairly trivial manner. Don't get me wrong, if your goal of 40k is an excuse to do precisely this, it's not necessarily a bad thing - But it leaves a poor taste in the mouths of people who either get into it expecting the game itself to be more than a veneer, and especially so to people who played through the phases where it did try to be at least internally coherant and vaguely competitive. It's very easy to polarise this argument into stupidity either way though (GW Apologists will say the game still works, it's not THAT bad, etc., whilst GW Critics will say it's all a cash grab and they don't care at all, etc.) and the truth is, imo, somewhere in the middle, but it feels like the pendulum has swung more into the 'The game is just a vehicle to sell toy soldiers, and toy soldiers make us money' ethic than 'We make a good game and that will naturally attract sales of toy soldiers, thus making us money' camp than it ever has been before.
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May 21, 2015 09:48
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Shockeh posted:You've kinda hit on exactly why people don't like it tho'; GW has just given up entirely with the prospect of making a game apart from a vehicle to buy plastic mans. With the advent of Unbound, and then Beerhammer becoming 'Just add rules or whatever to balance it, idk' you're only one step off bashing plastic barbies against one another to decide who wins. Then 6 months later, those models you bought will be not directly invalidated, but the next Hot poo poo™ will handily happen to wipe them off the board in a fairly trivial manner. This has finally convinced me that the laissez-faire attitude from GW to rules creation and balancing is toxic in the long run. I've been a decidedly casual player for my entire time in the hobby and I generally don't give a gently caress about overpowered things or whatever - I and the guys I play with are happy to house rule our own amendments to fix or alter things we don't like. Which is fine, but at the moment we have some kind of framework around which to make the changes. As you say, if you're essentially moving towards bashing barbies together then one day there will be no framework around which to make our changes. gently caress GW. Hail Satan.
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May 21, 2015 09:59
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Shockeh posted:It's very easy to polarise this argument into stupidity either way though (GW Apologists will say the game still works, it's not THAT bad, etc., whilst GW Critics will say it's all a cash grab and they don't care at all, etc.) and the truth is, imo, somewhere in the middle, but it feels like the pendulum has swung more into the 'The game is just a vehicle to sell toy soldiers, and toy soldiers make us money' ethic than 'We make a good game and that will naturally attract sales of toy soldiers, thus making us money' camp than it ever has been before. While there's truth in both sides, I don't really see it as any different to how 40k originally started. Rogue Trader itself was less of a rulebook and more of a framework to push little metal dudes around a table with some semblance of narrative. It was full of half-finished ideas where the players were meant to fill in the blanks and find what works for them. Even when 40k started to become properly commercialised in the 90's, GW writers would still throw in crazy stuff into rulebooks that were never intended in any way to be balanced; just cool-sounding ideas to play a game around. Things like the first Chaos codex having Daemon Princes with stats above 10. People act like Unbound and D-weapons are some dramatic game-changing event, but GW have been doing this poo poo forever. They're just better at making money off it now than 20-30 years ago. The only real difference between folks making up 'cool-sounding' rules on Dakka and GW game designers is that the latter get occasionally proof-read, published and paid to do it. xtothez fucked around with this message at 10:33 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 10:26
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xtothez posted:The only real difference between folks making up 'cool-sounding' rules on Dakka and GW game designers is that the latter get occasionally proof-read, published and paid to do it. All correct, but I'd hugely disagree on this last point - The real difference is as the game 'designers', people collectively expect them to be authoritive. It doesn't actually matter if the rules are broken, as long as there's one consistent expectation of what those rules are. If tomorrow the rules of Chess were changed so that Pawns could move three spaces, it'd 'break' the game, and a lot of people would be upset, and indeed some people would still play the game where they moved only one. But you can't use that justification to expect people to be happy if you play someone and they just out of the blue say 'Hey, I'd quite like Pawns to move 3 places, is that okay?' and dismiss it if they're unhappy about it. Now take that analogy, and pretend only one person gets Pawns, and the other gets Not-Pawns this new rule doesn't apply to. Now you've got 'Forging the narrative'.
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May 21, 2015 10:40
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I think GW could get me to accept either the game being at a premium price (though not price creeping indefinitely) if it was the most incredible, rewarding gameplay experience ever, or being a low-effort barbie-selling vehicle if it didn't represent any sort of major investment. What I can't accept is the worst of both worlds and that's exactly what they're moving towards delivering. When the cost of legally obtaining all the rules (rulebook and all necessary codices/supplements) is creeping towards $200 all by itself, then saying 'the rules aren't actually that important, lol' is just such an incredible pisstake. (Conversely, I can and have racked up $200 or more worth of expenditures on game rules and supplements without regret, as long as I felt as though the individual purchases were giving me a good amount of satisfaction for my money. The fact that I probably got 3 or 4 times the amount of content than I would have gotten from Games Workshop for that amount has something to do with it, I'm sure.)
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May 21, 2015 10:49
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If GW continues to drop poo poo rules it'll eventually hit the point that ITC completely takes over. Or I can hope.
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May 21, 2015 11:08
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Uroboros posted:I'd love you long time, just let me know if you want to be paid in fiat money or something else...  The only thing is I'd have to be paid before I go, I don't have a credit card just waiting to be used, and also getting pre-payment means I can be sure the person wants it. I'll inform the thread before I go, I have a lot of Oath Thread things and the FW event-only models to send out to goons first though. SRM posted:For anyone who wants to upgrade their old Knights to the new missile launcher/chaingun and such, there's a dude making these conversion bits on Etsy from resin: JackMack posted:How about Wednesday 22nd July for warhammer world. Lord Twisted can potentially get his final fling before starting his career. I will try and book one of bigger tables (any preferences?).
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May 21, 2015 11:33
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JerryLee posted:I think GW could get me to accept either the game being at a premium price (though not price creeping indefinitely) if it was the most incredible, rewarding gameplay experience ever, or being a low-effort barbie-selling vehicle if it didn't represent any sort of major investment. What I can't accept is the worst of both worlds and that's exactly what they're moving towards delivering. When the cost of legally obtaining all the rules (rulebook and all necessary codices/supplements) is creeping towards $200 all by itself, then saying 'the rules aren't actually that important, lol' is just such an incredible pisstake. Whilst I am happy pootling along playing this game I think this is the nail on the head right here. I feel it is impossible to balance a game (or in fact most tabletop wargames) because there are just too many drat variables. I do feel that despite this frequently games are very close and I enjoy that aspect narratively. I do feel at a point that the 'professional' creators of rules add little value compared with individuals outside who understand the game very well. As such the value of these supplements is utterly questionable. They can be better or cheaper and I might buy them. Inept mule, you are in the UK, you very kindly reached out to me previously when I was living in London. Do you want to come to warhammrr world?
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May 21, 2015 11:40
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krushgroove posted:Well any money is fine as long as Paypal can send it in on 1s and 0s Cool. Let's do a September meet as well. We will wait out to see if ghost hand is coming over to play before settling on a date. Also I obviously owe you a pint or three due to your aforementioned model favour!
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May 21, 2015 11:43
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JackMack posted:Whilst I am happy pootling along playing this game I think this is the nail on the head right here. I feel it is impossible to balance a game (or in fact most tabletop wargames) because there are just too many drat variables. I do feel that despite this frequently games are very close and I enjoy that aspect narratively. I do feel at a point that the 'professional' creators of rules add little value compared with individuals outside who understand the game very well. As such the value of these supplements is utterly questionable. They can be better or cheaper and I might buy them.
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May 21, 2015 12:14
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Esser-Z posted:It's totally possible to balance a wargame. Not 100% perfectly, perhaps, but close enough, and nothing is ever perfect. It does involve actual playtesting and paying attention to the community, but it's entirely doable. Lots of games do it. anWhich would you say are the most balanced? Why do you think we are not playing these games? I appreciate that was a very general statement. E: in fact let's leave it. It will be a long derail and no one will enjoy it. Not 100% balanced is unbalanced so what we will be arguing about is degrees of unbalance that are acceptable and games with different mechanics. Also you have previously reported that you are making girl marines.... JackMack fucked around with this message at 12:46 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 12:24
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You'd think with a team of at least 10 designers, they could all band together and make a semi-coherent rule structure. I get that the big part of 40k is being able to forge your own narrative (I've some BL authors use this line when they gently caress something up or mess up something an another writer has already wrote as cannon) and for those that want to create their own rules should be allowed to. Hell, the forge org was often ignored when I had games as simply wanted to have fun. What GW needs to do is bring back the old tournaments where they needed to work on balancing things as much as possible. Having some fluff type of buffs (Grey Knights being able to bitch slap Demons for example) was natural and added a nice spin to it. Likewise with each army that seemed to have one uber type of unit. GW are more than capable of balancing the game should they wish. But they don't. You look at companies like PP and the like and they have managed to evenly match up 8+ armies that can work either in their own separate games, or combined. Well, as even as possible. I've not read as much bitching about balancing and OP stuff like I do with warhammer. Also, I'm at a complete loving loss with the mechanicus stuff now. If I want a mechanicus army I need to use both Skitarri and Cults? Meaning before I can I need two loving rule books?
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May 21, 2015 12:47
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Am I right in thinking that the two red books for the HH are basically core ruleset + specific Legions (not all of them, but most of the released ones) without all the fluff etc?
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May 21, 2015 13:17
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Lord Twisted posted:Am I right in thinking that the two red books for the HH are basically core ruleset + specific Legions (not all of them, but most of the released ones) without all the fluff etc? Yeah man that's correct
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May 21, 2015 13:20
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Going to a kocal tournament on the 6th. Tear holes in my list Techpriest Dominus: Phosphex Serpenta 110 4 Skitarii Rangers: omnispex; 2× transuranic arquebus; + 1 Ranger Alpha (The Skull of Elder Nikola) 150 9 Skitarii Vanguard: + 1 Vanguard Alpha (The Omniscient Mask) 120 4 Kataphron Destroyers: Cognis Flamethrower, Grav 240 4 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 2× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha 95 9 Skitarii Vanguard: + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Pater Radium) 120 4 Kataphron Destroyers Grav 220 1 Onager Dunecrawler: icarus array 125 2 Kastelan Robot Maniple: Twin-Linked Heavy Phosphor Blaster; 2× Heavy Phosphor Blaster; Cybernetica Datasmith 320 1.500 points We will be using the much lauded, "Tigurius counts as one grav cannon" AS system. DJ Dizzy fucked around with this message at 14:02 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 13:59
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DJ Dizzy posted:We will be using the much lauded, "Tigurius counts as one grav cannon" AS system.  Edit: DJ Dizzy posted:No, this monstrosity http://www.powerfist.dk/forum/index.php?topic=84534.0 (Eldar hasnt been updated) Tigurius = 1 gravcannon 8 gravcannons = 8 Tiguriuses 
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May 21, 2015 14:24
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No, this monstrosity http://www.powerfist.dk/forum/index.php?topic=84534.0 (Eldar hasnt been updated)
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May 21, 2015 14:33
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JackMack posted:Inept mule, you are in the UK, you very kindly reached out to me previously when I was living in London. Do you want to come to warhammrr world? Yo, where do you guys play in London? Dark Sphere? The 40k itch has returned for me recently, but the game is nowhere near as popular at my club anymore 
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May 21, 2015 15:06
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Safety Factor posted:So does that mean you have eight Tiguriuses? Its not awful, I quite like it. Also, its HEAVY gravcannons, not regular gravcannons. 
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May 21, 2015 15:17
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BeigeJacket posted:Yo, where do you guys play in London? Dark Sphere? The 40k itch has returned for me recently, but the game is nowhere near as popular at my club anymore I play fairly regularly at Dark Sphere. There's a £6 buyin apoc game on the 30th which I'll be at. I've got exams at the moment so fairly busy with non 40k stuff, but will be there over the holidays probably about once a week. I usually do 1500-1750, the meta scene there seems reasonably hard without running into annoying tournament lists.
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May 21, 2015 15:18
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LabiaBadgerTickler posted:You'd think with a team of at least 10 designers, they could all band together and make a semi-coherent rule structure. I get that the big part of 40k is being able to forge your own narrative (I've some BL authors use this line when they gently caress something up or mess up something an another writer has already wrote as cannon) and for those that want to create their own rules should be allowed to. Hell, the forge org was often ignored when I had games as simply wanted to have fun. Not trying to sound too mean here, but I suggest stop crying about how the game is a mess and buy more models and rulebooks. Did you know you can buy the new knight codex with the amazing value of over twice the unit rules included as the previous one?
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May 21, 2015 15:40
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Welp, this is a thing now... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RnxDN8jmok Guess maybe there's hope for GorkaMorka in vidya game form too...
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May 21, 2015 15:56
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Jesus Christ, a new Marine Codex? I'm still building and painting my army for the previous one. I'm not paying $100 to replace rules that I still haven't used, GW.
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May 21, 2015 16:32
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I think there's a very real risk of mass-burnout at the rate they're going. At least based on the people I know who have been into this stuff for decades.
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May 21, 2015 16:35
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An Angry Bug posted:Jesus Christ, a new Marine Codex? I'm still building and painting my army for the previous one. I'm not paying $100 to replace rules that I still haven't used, GW. Hmm yes you are, aren't you a true fan of this hobby??
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May 21, 2015 16:35
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An Angry Bug posted:Jesus Christ, a new Marine Codex? I'm still building and painting my army for the previous one. I'm not paying $100 to replace rules that I still haven't used, GW. Buff whirlwinds plz, kthnx
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May 21, 2015 16:38
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Reynold posted:Buff whirlwinds plz, kthnx Whirlwinds now 35 points each, come in squadrons of 3. (Not 1-3) Whirlwind Primaris: 100 points, fires S9 AP 2 Large Blast or SD AP 1 Small Blast. Requires two Whirlwind kits to assemble.
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May 21, 2015 16:41
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formations within formations sounds like an Inception joke Shame it isn't just a joke :/ Moola fucked around with this message at 16:48 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 16:41
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I can't decide if I like the formation stuff in the Eldar book or not. It somehow manages to be way too rigid at the same time as being very flexible. If the Avatar was just an HQ I think I'd still be using a CAD as the core of the army.
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May 21, 2015 16:47
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I made an IG player quit on round 2 with Eldar. Took out both of his tanks. I dont think i will be using Dscythes simply because i like playing the game for more that 2 turns.
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May 21, 2015 16:53
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Gapey Joe Stalin posted:I can't decide if I like the formation stuff in the Eldar book or not. It somehow manages to be way too rigid at the same time as being very flexible. I still have my Forgeworld Avatar I got as a gift from another goon back in the day, but I never bothered picking up the new Eldar book for obvious reasons. How has it changed?
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May 21, 2015 16:56
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Gapey Joe Stalin posted:I think there's a very real risk of mass-burnout at the rate they're going. At least based on the people I know who have been into this stuff for decades. Yeah, I think this is the real problem. It's not like they ruined the game's balance. That was always bad. Giving the D to non-superheavy or gargantuan units was a terrible move, but the end result is just yet another dominant Eldar codex. And that's basically a GW tradition at this point. But when they're pumping out so much stuff that even die hards like me stop keeping track, they're probably overdoing it. The only reason to bring out a new Marine book right now is to have it match the new codex layout, and that's not a good enough reason.
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