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Bottom Liner posted:How many anime dolls do you own? Lol!
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May 21, 2015 22:44
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esquilax posted:Anime theme means anime tropes and/or anime humor. Unless Tragedy Looper has an upskirt-shot mechanic and giant sweatdrop tokens that I haven't heard about for some reason, I'm gonna go with "not really." Lord Frisk posted:While we're strawmaning; Sure, but it's just as reasonable for me to find that silly and dumb. It's not like Tragedy Looper is all MOE DESU WHATEVER HERE'S A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL'S PANTIES BAKA-SAN. To go back to oft-trodden ground for a moment, people here roll their eyes whenever zombie themed games come up but that's mainly because most zombie games aren't that good. Dead of Winter wouldn't magically become a better game if you crossed out "zombies" and replaced them with subsistence farmers. Likewise I imagine that if someone made a really, really awesome game that happened to have zombies in it that even people who are like "ugh zombies, whatever" would still give it a shot. If Tragedy Looper is a good game as people say it is then it seems silly to me to balk at the anime artstyle which doesn't even seem to be weird and offputting anime.
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May 21, 2015 22:44
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Lord Frisk posted:While we're strawmaning; Actually, I think they both show a relatively shallow appreciation of games & their mechanics. I don't love the theme of Archipelago or Kanban but I play them because they're excellent games whose mechanics speak for themselves. Obviously there's room for theme to have an artistic consideration - I wouldn't play a game that was outright offensive in theme for example - but refusing to play something due to the presence of a specific art style is petty. Like, I don't love country music, but I'll acknowledge that there's good danceable country music and I'll dance to it if that's what's on. And there may be a great country (or rap or EDM) song that I normally would dislike because of genre but I would try it if there was a consensus as to its worth.
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May 21, 2015 22:47
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The most anime thing in Tragedy Looper is the alien character who looks like a teenage girl.
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May 21, 2015 22:47
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Fungah! posted:Lol! But seriously, if you don't own multiple board game themed douj' starring King Phillip and Cylons, lol. Just lol.
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May 21, 2015 22:48
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Lord Frisk posted:The game has the theme printed on it. A retheme or reskin would work, sure. But the game as is is covered in an art style that some people do not want or appreciate. Let them not play it. That's your prerogative, but as the art style is lacking cleavage or panty shots or anything even vaguely objectionable, you've basically proven that my original statement isn't a strawman at all. It's a really amazing game and there's very little reason not to own it and look past the theme.
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May 21, 2015 22:49
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My point is that it is not for everyone. The people that really care about the mechanics will look past the theme. The people that can't, won't. Let them have it.
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May 21, 2015 22:49
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Kemet doesn't really have much if anything to do with ancient Egypt for that matter. Yeah yeah, mummies and pyramids, but it'd be the work of an afternoon to reskin it as some sort of post apocalyptic game where the giant scorpion is a kitbashed battle-bus and obelisks are literal teleportation pads. I mean, isn't this basically the Dominion argument all over again?
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May 21, 2015 22:50
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I think the theme vs. mechanics argument is a quarter of this thread, with one half of it being "fun" vs rules and the remaining quarter people crying about BL.
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May 21, 2015 22:54
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Countblanc posted:But seriously, if you don't own multiple board game themed douj' starring King Phillip and Cylons, lol. Just lol.
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May 21, 2015 22:54
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Stelas posted:That's your prerogative, but as the art style is lacking cleavage or panty shots or anything even vaguely objectionable, you've basically proven that my original statement isn't a strawman at all. It's a really amazing game and there's very little reason not to own it and look past the theme. I don't know what your statement was. I don't care. Maybe you think I'm saying that I won't own/play spaghetti looper because anime. I'm not. Let people be closed minded about poo poo. It doesn't hurt your game.
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May 21, 2015 22:55
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Lord Frisk posted:I don't know what your statement was. I don't care. Okay, great, got it.
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May 21, 2015 22:56
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Man I don't know what else we're going to do in this thread if it's not yelling at people for having bad opinions.
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May 21, 2015 22:58
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Kai Tave posted:Kemet doesn't really have much if anything to do with ancient Egypt for that matter. Yeah yeah, mummies and pyramids, but it'd be the work of an afternoon to reskin it as some sort of post apocalyptic game where the giant scorpion is a kitbashed battle-bus and obelisks are literal teleportation pads. drat it now I want a Mad Max reskin of Kemet.
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May 21, 2015 22:58
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All of the above said, I do cringe slightly every time I see 'Designed by BakaFire' on the box. I couldn't imagine a more 90s-geocities name if I tried.
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May 21, 2015 22:58
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Fat Samurai posted:A friend has just asked me for opinions about Study in Emerald which I don't know anything about besides Cthulhu+Sherlock Holmes+Gainman. Can anyone give me the short version so I can appear knowledgeable? It's the most divisive game you'll ever come across. I've never seen anything that splits player opinion like it. I'm a vote for the 'it's a cool game' camp. It's a deckbuilder with bidding and hidden teams (but solo victory). You score points by controlling certain cards and either killing Cthulhu's minions (if you're a Restorations) or building political capital and hunting assassins (Loyalists). It is a mash up of themes, and the game has a strong vein of free-wheeling chaos to it (you'll end up with Bismarck, Zombies, Vampires and Cthulhu rubbing shoulders), which, combined with the paranoia of not knowing who's on your side (and the fact that even your team mates will go after you if you're winning) lead to something that feels appropriately Lovecraftian. It's the only Cthulhu mythos game where the theme comes through in the mechanisms, and not just as text and images printed on the game materials. It's not balanced, it's chaotic and the rules are a bear to learn, but it's one of those games where theme and mechanisms neatly intersect and it's an entertaining time.
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May 21, 2015 23:00
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Stelas posted:All of the above said, I do cringe slightly every time I see 'Designed by BakaFire' on the box. I couldn't imagine a more 90s-geocities name if I tried. I love the name for precisely that reason.
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May 21, 2015 23:00
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Stelas posted:Pull out Magic Cards and say 'hey this Mountain is actually the Patient' if you like. The mechanics behind them are so good that I feel that would be an acceptable tradeoff in order to get the game on the table. Maybe you would make that tradeoff but that doesn't go for everybody. I for example am an extremely visual and tactile person. A game with poor art design, and/or an art design I don't find engaging is facing an uphill battle. Maybe you can shrug and look past it because it doesn't make any difference to the gameplay, but for me it does make a difference to my enjoyment and engagement. Personally I play and enjoy a game with my eyes as much as with my head and hands. I probably like Tschak! more than I otherwise would thanks to the stupendous art design, for example. I still bought Tragedy Looper out of genuine interest but that's in spite of the anime art rather than it being evidence that anime art is immaterial to me. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I mean I kinda think evidence of this is borne out by the impression I'm getting a whiff of that it's assumed that disliking anime art somehow means you assume anime = creepy upskirt panty imagery or something.
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May 21, 2015 23:01
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Big McHuge posted:drat it now I want a Mad Max reskin of Kemet. I was actually thinking the other night that Mage Knight could work reskinned as a Mad Max game.
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May 21, 2015 23:06
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Isn't the flavor of MK that you're in some sort of post-calamity fantasy? That's why all of the world is islands connected through gates, right?
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May 21, 2015 23:07
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Stelas posted:All of the above said, I do cringe slightly every time I see 'Designed by BakaFire' on the box. I couldn't imagine a more 90s-geocities name if I tried. It'd be cool if their logo was a skull gif with flaming eyes that said "under construction"
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May 21, 2015 23:08
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Mister Sinewave posted:Different strokes for different folks I guess. I mean I kinda think evidence of this is borne out by the impression I'm getting a whiff of that it's assumed that disliking anime art somehow means you assume anime = creepy upskirt panty imagery or something. Okay, then what are the "anime tropes" people are worried about finding in Tragedy Looper then?
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May 21, 2015 23:10
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taser rates posted:I was actually thinking the other night that Mage Knight could work reskinned as a Mad Max game. Man I'm going to Kickstart this right now and make millions.
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May 21, 2015 23:11
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Bottom Liner posted:Man I'm going to Kickstart this right now and make millions. Don't forget to put zombies in it! e; not anime, though.
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May 21, 2015 23:13
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Impermanent posted:Isn't the flavor of MK that you're in some sort of post-calamity fantasy? That's why all of the world is islands connected through gates, right? Mage Knight is the perfect mechanical representation of my groups epic level D&D play, it brings a tear to my eye. I just imagine that my character (having just reached level 25) has decided that it is about time to conquer a Prime Material plane for himself. You come in from a gate found in a back closet you discovered in Sigil, the city of doors. Once there, you gather some of the mid level locals as cannon fodder, and kill off the high level ones who will oppose your new planetary tyranny. Working your way closer and closer to the capitol city, where you slaughter the emperor on his throne and proclaim this Prime Material Plane your new dominion 
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May 21, 2015 23:19
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Countblanc posted:It'd be cool if their logo was a skull gif with flaming eyes that said "under construction" Make it the mastermind symbol as well and I'd be sold. Mage Knight actually happens on Atlantis, too, just to be that little more metal.
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May 21, 2015 23:26
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Kai Tave posted:Okay, then what are the "anime tropes" people are worried about finding in Tragedy Looper then? Beats me. I was talking about anime art as an artstyle subjectively not being my thing and getting in the way of my enjoyment rather than enhancing it. That's what I thought other people were getting at but maybe I'm wrong. I mean if someone staunchly avoided Tragedy Looper because they don't want to run into 3000-year-old witches who look like 9 year olds or encounter comically ridiculous one-man-many-women-chasing-him sitcoms or creepy maid harassment or brooding androgynous types or something and won't take "don't worry it won't happen" for an answer, then I dunno what to tell them, man.  I didn't think anyone was actually thinking along those lines but I've been dead wrong about poo poo before.
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May 21, 2015 23:38
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Mister Sinewave posted:Beats me. I was talking about anime art as an artstyle subjectively not being my thing and getting in the way of my enjoyment rather than enhancing it. That's what I thought other people were getting at but maybe I'm wrong. Well the post that set this tanget off was: esquilax posted:Anime theme means anime tropes and/or anime humor. Themes always come with baggage, that's like the entire point of using a familiar theme. If you don't like the theme in general you probably won't like the theme in specific cases. which sounds to me like the argument being put forth is more than just "I don't like anime style art" but "I am worried that Tragedy Looper contains dangerous amounts of anime."
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May 21, 2015 23:43
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Kai Tave posted:Okay, then what are the "anime tropes" people are worried about finding in Tragedy Looper then? I don't think anyone is "worrying" about anything in particular. It's just that motifs and cliches (aka tropes) are typically tied into the theme, and those are often not enjoyable to many people. The art style is tied into that, and the association is hard to break. The fact that people have been saying there is basically no conveyance between the anime theme and the mechanics of the game makes me want to play it more, when in basically any other circumstance it would make me want to play a game less.
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May 21, 2015 23:53
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I guess I read that through my own lens and made my own set of assumptions about what the poster meant. I saw it as "if you don't go for anime art, great design/mechanics won't change that". I'd agree that you don't need to be an anime fan to enjoy or 'get' TL though.
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May 21, 2015 23:54
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I don't have a lot of patience for anime, but the art was done by someone who actually knows how to draw rather than some dweeb with a "How to draw ANIME! In six easy steps!" book from Borders, so whatever. The real stumbling block is that at the same time that I bought it, some of my friends decided they wanted to play Kemet on a regular basis, and I like it when I don't have to teach anything.
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May 22, 2015 00:02
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esquilax posted:I don't think anyone is "worrying" about anything in particular. It's just that motifs and cliches (aka tropes) are typically tied into the theme, and those are often not enjoyable to many people. The art style is tied into that, and the association is hard to break. Given that a number of thread favorites have minimal, if any, hard relationship between theme and mechanics (Dominion, Kemet, etc.) I'm not even sure what the gently caress "conveyance" is supposed to mean or why it's apparently desirable. Is this like the whole "dissociated mechanics" thing that shat up D&D4E discussions for years?
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May 22, 2015 00:06
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Kai Tave posted:Given that a number of thread favorites have minimal, if any, hard relationship between theme and mechanics (Dominion, Kemet, etc.) I'm not even sure what the gently caress "conveyance" is supposed to mean or why it's apparently desirable. Is this like the whole "dissociated mechanics" thing that shat up D&D4E discussions for years? Basically that the mechanics work in concert with the theme. I don't know if it was a debate during the grognard wars, I was able to ignore that.
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May 22, 2015 00:25
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esquilax posted:Basically that the mechanics work in concert with the theme. Well if I understand what Tragedy Looper is about correctly then by your definition it actually has strong conveyance since it seems very much like a murder mystery/supernatural puzzle thriller in the vein of games like Dangan Ronpa (yes yes) or Zero Escape. I'll be honest, I'm not really sure what your theoretical potential problem with the game is based on the box art having anime people on it, could you please be a bit more specific than vague mentions of "tropes?"
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May 22, 2015 00:40
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Kai Tave posted:Well if I understand what Tragedy Looper is about correctly then by your definition it actually has strong conveyance since it seems very much like a murder mystery/supernatural puzzle thriller in the vein of games like Dangan Ronpa (yes yes) or Zero Escape. I'll be honest, I'm not really sure what your theoretical potential problem with the game is based on the box art having anime people on it, could you please be a bit more specific than vague mentions of "tropes?"
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May 22, 2015 00:49
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Kai Tave posted:Well if I understand what Tragedy Looper is about correctly then by your definition it actually has strong conveyance since it seems very much like a murder mystery/supernatural puzzle thriller in the vein of games like Dangan Ronpa (yes yes) or Zero Escape. I'll be honest, I'm not really sure what your theoretical potential problem with the game is based on the box art having anime people on it, could you please be a bit more specific than vague mentions of "tropes?" I've been purposely avoiding being specific about what I don't like about anime because I don't want to insult anime-lovers or have a debate about whether or not anime is good. Suffice to say I do not enjoy anime, despite having tried to. I associate the art style with something I do not enjoy. People have said that the art style in this case is actually unrelated to The Thing I Do Not Enjoy, which makes me less reluctant than I originally was to play the game. I still dislike the art style because it is linked with The Thing I Do Not Enjoy. It might not be beep boop rational, but it's how I feel and how other people feel. esquilax fucked around with this message at 01:07 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 01:02
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esquilax posted:I've been purposely avoiding being specific about what I don't like about anime Yeah I know, that's sort of what started this whole thing off.
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May 22, 2015 01:06
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Big McHuge posted:drat it now I want a Mad Max reskin of Kemet. Thunder Road is literally Mad Max 2: The Boardgame. The minis are all copies of vehicles in the movie.
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May 22, 2015 01:14
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah I know, that's sort of what started this whole thing off. Well this Bobby The Rookie posted:Yeah, anime is just the art style, the actual 'theme' of Tragedy Looper is time travel mystery solving and never making the same mistake twice. TL is still pretty abstract, however, much of the 'story' and what's actually happening in a given scenario is meant to be inferred by the protagonist players, and usually isn't clear until the game is over. would have been a really good response to my original post so I guess it was a fruitful discussion?
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May 22, 2015 01:22
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Yeah, that's pretty important. Art style can be independent of theme. You can have a game that conveys the theme of being a fireman possessed by Oscar Wilde with art that's photorealistic, anime, poser renders, etc.. Tragedy Looper was also developed in Japan and seems to feature a pretty typical and neutral style of art for this type of thing. I can see not viewing the art as a positive feature for the game and I am pretty wary of most things anime but I think ruling out Japanese developed games featuring typical art for that culture by default seems like it would be a bit narrow-minded. But to each their own, I guess. Things like the Concordia box cover or the tragically stereotypical euro game cover of Marco Polo are not to my tastes, but I'm going to try them out anyways because I want to see if they are good games. Eminent Domain: Escalation has this pretty awful/sweet picture of M. Bison on the back of the box. Don't care. Game recognize game Countblanc posted:It'd be cool if their logo was a skull gif with flaming eyes that said "under construction" BEHOLD  THATS THE REAL LOGO
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May 22, 2015 02:11
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