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Artificers got criminally little support, but Magic Weapon is very good and making surges fungible is really interesting.
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May 21, 2015 21:34
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Section Z posted:I admit I probably would not enjoy Artificer so much if I didn't have crossbow caster. Or at least a Swordmage Multiclass just so I'm not juggling implements in one hand and simple weapons in the other. This is why Warforged and Shardminds are the best Artificers: they can use a staff and an Armbow Crossbow for melee weapon, ranged weapon, and implement attacks with no juggling necessary.
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May 21, 2015 22:48
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Fumaofthelake posted:What are some good, semi-broken options for building a heroic tier half-elf cleric? Looking to be primary healer and be able to do at least respectable radiant/single target damage and a little field management.
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May 22, 2015 04:16
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I'm not that big on pure artificers, but I love hybrid artificers.
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May 22, 2015 04:48
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Skald is an amazing hybrid option because if you are picking the right powers and have a basic attack it can be tacked onto any chassis without losing action economy.
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May 22, 2015 05:07
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ProfessorCirno posted:I mean it more or less boils down to some leaders being kinda specialized compared to the other rolls. A wizard is always going to be a boss controller no matter what the party set up is, but a warlord in a group with a monk, a swordmage, and a sorcerer, probably won't get a whole lot of bang for their buck. On the other hand, that warlord in a group with a fighter, a barbarian, and a strength rogue is going to do absurdly better then almost any other leader. You can build Warlords that give out no basic attacks at all and are still better leaders than the average Cleric though? Clerics are the best healers, but being the best healer is not a useful goal; healing makes fights longer and grindier, buffing and enabling makes them shorter and funner. Clerics can do the buffing side pretty well if you build them right, but suck balls at enabling. OneThousandMonkeys posted:Skald is an amazing hybrid option because if you are picking the right powers and have a basic attack it can be tacked onto any chassis without losing action economy. Skalds are loving horrible for action economy given the amount of minor actions they need in order to switch on at the start of a fight.
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May 22, 2015 18:19
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thespaceinvader posted:Clerics are the best healers, but being the best healer is not a useful goal; healing makes fights longer and grindier, buffing and enabling makes them shorter and funner. This is a much better way of phrasing my problem with Clerics, and it's why I think they're so much stronger as hybrids. Cleric|X has a good portion of a Cleric's healing while gaining the ability to contribute to the fight effectively aside from healing.
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May 22, 2015 23:02
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Worth noting, as stated, that Clerics can absolutely contribute other things. It's just more difficult, primarily because they don't have a whole mess of feats and utilities that help, just a few stellar powers - most notably Deadly Lure, Sever the Source, and Valorous Charge (albeit that's 23rd level so meh). Deadly Lure is incredibly because you can use it to force provokes. Sever the Source is just nuts generally; vulnerable 10+WIS all automatically is silly-good. But clerics are burdened with a raft of stuff designed to fit the idea that it's better to get the PCs back up when they're down, than to prevent them ever going down at all, which makes them hard to build effectively. You can do other things with them - headspin, notably, taking advantage of Dizzying Mace to hand out massive attack penalties - but again that's lengthening fights, not shortening them, though they're a lot less dangerous. I really like my Cleric|Shaman, though it's taken a lot of levels to really grok how it works in practical play, and it's a lot better with long period of short encounters without rests due to having like... 6 standard-action encounter powers I think...
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May 22, 2015 23:34
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I know it's not quite 4e, but would anyone be interested in a PBP or Skype game of one of the D&D Adventures boardgame? Wrath of Ashardalon, specifically. I have all the assets together, and have had them for a long time, but I've never gotten to use them.
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May 22, 2015 23:58
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fatherdog posted:Artificers got criminally little support, but Magic Weapon is very good and making surges fungible is really interesting. I'm playing a Runepriest right now. "Criminally little support" indeed. Runepriests are also pretty solid at the buff and debuff game. Plus in Paragon they get a few attack granters. You can give your entire party damage bonuses, give the enemy vulnerability to all damage, and grant 2 or 3 people attacks either right now (with a heal) or over the next turn. They also get the eminently hosed up Rune of the Hero's Resolve at 23, which gives someone their current HP in Temp HP and a standard action. Shove the fighter (charge-tweaked paladin in my case) right in the middle with well over a hundred temp HP on turn one? Yes please.
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May 23, 2015 00:11
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Poison Mushroom posted:I know it's not quite 4e, but would anyone be interested in a PBP or Skype game of one of the D&D Adventures boardgame? Wrath of Ashardalon, specifically. I have all the assets together, and have had them for a long time, but I've never gotten to use them. I played that game once; I might be up for a PbP. Maybe post in the game recruitment megathread?
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May 23, 2015 00:19
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I might have played that once before? I know a D&D boardgame thing had been played PBP on the forums, and I was in one of them. Would probably be up for it if you put up a PBP recruit for it.
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May 23, 2015 01:27
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So I have a dual-wielding character going on who's at L11 and right now thanks to inherent bonuses didn't have to make their twin longswords (chosen for accuracy over the scimitar's crit range since I'm not doing critfish shenanigans) magic yet. I now have two L11 items I can get so I figured I should make them magical. I'm fairly certain for the mainhand I want Harmony or Vanguard, but what should I put on the other one? Note: I don't have a mark or intend to use frostcheese. EDIT: To be more specific, they're an Avenger who uses Dual Weapon Attack (Please don't go into the rules debate over this, the GM has approved it under the condition that I don't stack cheese on top of this) and the build goal is reliable sustainable DPR (hence the focus on hit rate. The DM has every encounter use the Hard encounter budget so having extra to-hit actually sort of matters) and to a lesser extent offtanking (because I managed to also fit Improved Armor of Faith and Unarmored Agility so I may as well keep things distracted. Plus we already have a Rogue and a Barbarian for damage spiking.). Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 02:09
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On the note of clerics and artificers, I'm playing as a cleric|artificer now (fluff wise it's pure cleric, but I wanted to add some oomph) and I do wonder a bit if I'd have been better off as just pure artificer. On the bright side I do have access to almost every amazing leader PP in existance (Flame of Hope, Battle Engineer, and Luckbringer of Tymora) so choosing that is gonna be hard.
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May 23, 2015 02:52
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Unknown Quantity posted:So I have a dual-wielding character going on who's at L11 and right now thanks to inherent bonuses didn't have to make their twin longswords (chosen for accuracy over the scimitar's crit range since I'm not doing critfish shenanigans) magic yet. I now have two L11 items I can get so I figured I should make them magical. I'm fairly certain for the mainhand I want Harmony or Vanguard, but what should I put on the other one? Note: I don't have a mark or intend to use frostcheese. Vanguard or Harmony :P If you have the ability to weild an offhand Longsword (MC Ranger, presumably), and you have two non-conflicting options for your weapons (check) then why choose?
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May 23, 2015 08:51
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The Avenger double-roll class feature adds so much accuracy that I really think you'd be better off going with a different weapon choice. The Avenger is basically the one class that can easily afford to drop accuracy in favour of other damaging weapon features.ProfessorCirno posted:On the note of clerics and artificers, I'm playing as a cleric|artificer now (fluff wise it's pure cleric, but I wanted to add some oomph) and I do wonder a bit if I'd have been better off as just pure artificer. On the bright side I do have access to almost every amazing leader PP in existance (Flame of Hope, Battle Engineer, and Luckbringer of Tymora) so choosing that is gonna be hard. The Cleric|Artificer is actually one of the only hybrid Clerics that I really can't stand. BCL is much less important because Artificer is Int-primary, you've got to be a wisdom Cleric if you want artificer riders worth a drat, and I don't feel that Cleric adds enough to artificer to make Cleric|Artificer a better pick than just a plain Artificer. If I wanted to hybrid an artificer I'd go Artificer|Swordmage or Artificer|Lazylord. If I wanted to hybrid a Cleric to make a better leader out of it I'd just add Warlord and go str primary.
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May 23, 2015 10:31
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Khizan posted:The Avenger double-roll class feature adds so much accuracy that I really think you'd be better off going with a different weapon choice. The Avenger is basically the one class that can easily afford to drop accuracy in favour of other damaging weapon features. Do you mean like a Khopesh instead of longswords, or do you mean another weapon class altogether? Because I could also just go with the classic Rhythm/Harmony combo. I would generally prefer light blades or heavy blades, though. thespaceinvader posted:Vanguard or Harmony :P Although this is a strong argument too considering Harmony Blade doesn't care whether it's first or second to hit (as far as the debuff is concerned. It'd care about mainhand status if I crit though.) Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 13:26 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 13:11
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Khizan posted:The Cleric|Artificer is actually one of the only hybrid Clerics that I really can't stand. BCL is much less important because Artificer is Int-primary, you've got to be a wisdom Cleric if you want artificer riders worth a drat, and I don't feel that Cleric adds enough to artificer to make Cleric|Artificer a better pick than just a plain Artificer. Sadly none of those really fit the concept. Of course the initial concept was Invoker|Cleric, but in the end I decided to go full leader instead of nearly full controller. Deva Wis/Int. Honestly I'm finding it to not be a bad mix at all. It's true that at most levels the artificer will have better powers...but the cleric usually has one real good power per tier, which is all I really want from it, and the cleric can cover areas the artificer just isn't all that good at. Even going int-primary BCL gives the shield bonus. I'm not too worried about being wisdom instead of constitution for the artificer temp HP, as that won't make a huge difference until much later, and by then I'll have ways to work around it. It's definitely far from the best artificer OR cleric combo, but it's not a bad combo, it just lacks some direction. And who knows, depending on how the game goes, I may end up going back to the initial concept if Invoker|Cleric.
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May 23, 2015 13:15
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Unknown Quantity posted:Do you mean like a Khopesh instead of longswords, or do you mean another weapon class altogether? Because I could also just go with the classic Rhythm/Harmony combo. I would generally prefer light blades or heavy blades, though. No, not a khopesh. Probably some sort of axe though - but the argument isn't a strong one anyway; double rolls make you more accurate, double rolls with +3 prof make you even more more accurate. You're nowhere near hitting diminishing returns on accuracy at this point unless you're somehow upgrading to dual wielding 2d6 weapons.
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May 23, 2015 13:35
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thespaceinvader posted:No, not a khopesh. Probably some sort of axe though - but the argument isn't a strong one anyway; double rolls make you more accurate, double rolls with +3 prof make you even more more accurate. You're nowhere near hitting diminishing returns on accuracy at this point unless you're somehow upgrading to dual wielding 2d6 weapons. Yeah I'm using standard 1d8 longswords at +17 to-hit so I think I'm very slightly ahead of the curve for 11th level? Either way, I think I'm going to go for Harmony in the main hand and then decide between Quick or Luckblade for the off-hand.
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May 23, 2015 17:28
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I am a big silly head who thinks a 2dx weapon paired with the "Melee weapon damage roll vs your oath target of 1 or 2 counts as a 3" avenger feat is cool  It at least felt good when I rolled a daily that was four 1's and couple 2s for damage at least.
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May 24, 2015 01:21
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I think the thing with 4e people kinda forget at times is that the ceiling is lower and the floor is (generally) higher. Unless you're going all out with bullshit interpretations of powers for double taps and zone abuse, most strikers will either be generally close to each other, or will have things to make up for it. Unless you're pulling out all the stops for creating The Perfect Enabling Nova, most leaders will generally hit the same levels. Etc, etc. That's not to say some will still be better then others, but that level of "better" won't be so massive as to cause severe issues. And frankly, it can be more disrupting to bring the supercharged striker that murders everything in a single nova round then to bring the warlock who likes using the controller side powers.
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May 24, 2015 04:43
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Yeah; I'd agree. Virtually everything I deride as crappy, will contribute perfectly fine at a normal optimisation level table (albeit, points about healing as a major character goal tending to make for grindier fights do stand) - one of the beauties of 4e is that as long as you put your high stat(s) in the right place(s), you can generally pick almost anything and come out with a character that won't be lovely, and if it turns out to be less good than expected, it's dead easy for the DM to compensate.
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May 24, 2015 09:08
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The thing about 4E is that you can run pretty much anything, but there is so much variance in efficiency that one party can roll through an encounter twice as fast as another, spending less resources as a result. To a certain extent that's unavoidable in a mechanics-heavy system where they built out almost every possible avenue you can go down with some kind of option to focus/gimmick it, but heavy control + free attack spam reduces many fights to pointless tedium where the issue is decided in the first two rounds. That's bad.
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May 24, 2015 09:51
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If by bad, you mean good, yes. Fighter being decided in the first two rounds is great; two rounds of fighting for us with a 6-PC party is usually about an hour and a half. We've had high epic fights that lasted less than a round but still took 2 to 3 hours.
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May 24, 2015 10:02
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thespaceinvader posted:If by bad, you mean good, yes. Last week we knocked a god of war prone and kicked him when he was down like a schoolyard bully, causing him to die in less than 12 seconds in-game. This process still took something like 2 hours. This neither feels like what was intended nor is particularly fun aside from the cheese value. I'd say my group is only putting up with this awfulness because we're too many sessions in to quit on it now and no one's really in the mood to scrub everything and go to something like Strike! yet. That being said epic is itself an afterthought in the game where the balance breaks down and not even the role system endures the abuse, compared to the "sweet spot" of most paragon games where most builds come together but the game is still pretty solid on the fundamental design ideas.
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May 24, 2015 11:24
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Given that this is a game in which ascension to godhood is not only possible, but frequently the focus of Epic Destinies, and generally done by the Unseen University method... I don't really see a problem with a team of near-gods killing a god. I wouldn't deny that the balance is pretty hosed by high epic though. Nor that the sweet spot is between 11 and 16, mostly, with a bit either side. But I would say that the game's not really designed for each fight to go much past 2 or 3 rounds unless something unusual is going on, purely because of how many monsters you get and how tough they are relative to the PCs' attacks. A single fight's not there to kill the PCs, it's there to be killed by them, whilst using their resources up.
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May 24, 2015 11:50
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thespaceinvader posted:Given that this is a game in which ascension to godhood is not only possible, but frequently the focus of Epic Destinies, and generally done by the Unseen University method... I don't really see a problem with a team of near-gods killing a god. I don't really have a problem killing a god at level 29. Clowning a god in a fight that is ostensibly supposed to be interesting is another matter.
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May 24, 2015 12:08
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Just because it's over in less than a round doesn't mean it got clowned. It does sometimes, mind. Climactic Chord is ridiculous.
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May 24, 2015 12:11
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And unlike many other games, all but the most degenerate tricks can usually be countered or mitigated by bolting new powers onto enemies in a process that is vastly more clear and simple to undertake than just about any other game with combat that is even remotely as complex. Like, if you're using by the book enemies, sure. Sometimes they can be pretty damned underwhelming if you've got a coherent strategy and an ounce of optimization behind you. But a monster designer isn't prescient and can't see both every team strategy that exists and every team strategy that might come to exist with future content and which ones to build in counters to to make the encounter Maximum Fun. When it comes to Big Setpiece Threats, there's always a level of correction that a DM has to undertake - or ignore at their own peril.
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May 24, 2015 17:27
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Did anyone ever run the Dark Sun Sorcerer Kings + Dragon of Tyr for their group? We never got to Epic levels back when I DM'd Dark Sun, but I've always been curious about how fun those encounters would be.
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May 24, 2015 19:12
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thespaceinvader posted:Just because it's over in less than a round doesn't mean it got clowned. Funny you should say. My current build is Traveler's Harlequin + Eternal Seeker on a bard/warlock hybrid and Climactic Chord was one of the pickups. Absolutely stupid good power.
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May 24, 2015 20:08
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It's one of those powers that would be close to broken as a standard-action attack power, and is ludicrous as a minor action utility. One of our Epic parties has 3 instances of it...
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May 24, 2015 20:10
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Does anyone have any leads on online stores still stocking 4e material? I want to pick up a dungeon master's screen, but everything I've found on ebay is upwards of $45.
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May 24, 2015 23:23
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Pfox posted:Does anyone have any leads on online stores still stocking 4e material? I want to pick up a dungeon master's screen, but everything I've found on ebay is upwards of $45. I've been getting stuff like new Dungeon Tiles and used books through Amazon. I did have a Rules Compendium get lost in the mail, but even with the 3rd party seller, they were really helpful, quick to get back to me, and sent me a refund, which I then promptly used to get another Compendium from another used seller. Honestly, if you're looking for books, good condition used copies are relatively cheap and easy to find through Amazon. Hell, even things like new unopened Dungeon Tiles are at or just below MSRP, except for the Dark Sun Athas set.
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May 25, 2015 01:06
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Mecha Gojira posted:I've been getting stuff like new Dungeon Tiles and used books through Amazon. I did have a Rules Compendium get lost in the mail, but even with the 3rd party seller, they were really helpful, quick to get back to me, and sent me a refund, which I then promptly used to get another Compendium from another used seller. Ya, I am finding that the books are reasonably priced, but I didn't find a single screen for a reasonable price. Ended up looking through a bunch of mom and pop rpg stores with online ordering and wound up finding a copy for $10 in Thunder Bay.
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May 25, 2015 01:42
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Wasn't there a screen in the DM's Kit? That might be cheaper and you probably want a copy of it anyway.
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May 25, 2015 01:44
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Arivia posted:Wasn't there a screen in the DM's Kit? That might be cheaper and you probably want a copy of it anyway. I already have the Rules Compendium, does the DM kit have much in the way of value add? e: and both DMG1 and 2
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May 25, 2015 01:55
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Pfox posted:I already have the Rules Compendium, does the DM kit have much in the way of value add? 2nd hand testimony, but apparently the adventure that's included is really good.
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May 25, 2015 02:07
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Pfox posted:I already have the Rules Compendium, does the DM kit have much in the way of value add? The dungeon master's book that's in the kit is different from DMG1 and 2. It's more recent though. Although it probably doesn't havr that much new stuff. The included adventure is really quite good Special tokens for player characters are included So are a bunch of extra monster tokens, trap tokens, maps
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May 26, 2015 08:44
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