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I'm just surprised by the statement saying that Kerry "won" when it's been repeated constantly that his actions were pointless in the end. That and the Grail is bad juju so not a great prize to begin with.
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May 24, 2015 08:16
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UBW is a good thematic follow-up to F/Z. F/Z examines the idea of saving the many by sacrificing the few and unambiguously rejects it; it ends on Kiritsugu passing down a different way, the path he originally wanted to follow. UBW then examines that different way, and it's the route that does that most directly. Can you really save everyone? Is it worth it to chase that impossibility when you're certain to fail? This is what literally the entire story is about, which is part of why Shirou is thrown into situations that are over his head so often; he spends a lot of time not even able to save anyone, let alone everyone. UBW addresses the thing with Saber, what are you even talking about? Saber regrets the past and wants to go back to change it. She's confronted with someone who's returned to his past and is trying to change it, and she's forced to see it as something ugly and pointless. She sees that for all that Archer regrets it now, the him of the past wouldn't change a single step on that road. Every single thing Shirou is doing is directly relevant to Saber, and Archer's final decision will directly relate to hers--it has to, because she's aware of the parallel. Let's taboo "follow-up," you're not allowed to use that word any more. What do you mean by it? No, UBW is not F/Z Cours 3 and 4. You shouldn't expect it to be, because the story ended with a direct repudiation of everything the main character did. You can't just continue in the same vein after that, it's not possible. There is no possible universe in which anything that takes place after F/Z would be like F/Z, because that is the point of the end of F/Z! edit: but yeah the pacing on the last three episodes has sucked rear end, especially last week, that was loving awful
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May 24, 2015 08:17
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Kritisugu completely won insofar as the holy grail war was winnable. The only difference between what he did and what Shirou will manage in UBW was Waver coming back to clean up the remnants of the war afterwards, instead of everyone seeming to forget about the whole thing. Irisiviel was gonna die whether he participated or not, Einsbern being dicks about Ilya was outside his control, and his other assistant died on her own initiative. Even without being able to use the grail in the end, winning had value because without his participation Kotomine would have won instead.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 08:28 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 08:23
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I'm beginning to see why Nasu told everyone not to expect a sequel to Fate/zero from this show. This was always going to be Unlimited Blade Works, so expecting every dangling plot thread from zero to be resolved is quite unrealistic, unless, of course, they were willing to almost completely change the plot of it. Heaven's Feel is a much more realistic comparison to zero, given the themes and more characters who had important roles in zero will have more screen time and development in that route (with the notable exception of one), but whenever that comes out, yeah, the comparisons to zero are going to get ridiculous, but there at least is a sensible basis. As for the Avalon stuff, I dunno, there's some foreknowledge bias when it comes to how I perceive things, but the reason it was given to Iri in the first place in zero was because of its regenerative powers, at least when Saber was around to increase its effect (not to mention how it was used as her summoning catalyst). Even if zero does not explicitly show Kiritsugu embedding it within Shirou, it's not hard to make the connection between "Kiritsugu encountering a nearly dead Shirou, cut to the future, Shirou is alive and well a few years later" when Avalon's powers were explicitly spelled out earlier in the story, especially when magically transferring the thing into a new body was shown previously in the story (when Iri was almost dead and gave it to Kiritsugu).
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May 24, 2015 08:27
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Shinjobi posted:The anime is faltering a little bit because the pacing is weirdly splitting things into three episodes, but I still don't see how anyone can like Kiritsugu over Shirou. Shirou is a dumb force of nature, like a broken NPC that's pathfinding into a wall at high speeds for eternity. He's a train wreck, but one that's entertaining as hell. Kiritsugu was just a blatant shitlord in a contest between gentlemen who'd prefer being subtle shitlords, and only achieved any sort of success because he worked with Goku the servant. Shirou is capable of operating without Saber's help, regardless of the Avalan shoehorn in today's episode, and he's much more fun to watch because of it. Kiritsugu is more than capable of operating without Saber's help, and more often uses her as a simple distraction than relying on her power. He only does so when he has no other choice, such as when fighting other Servants, taking out that creature Caster summoned, or using Avalon against Kirei. Einander posted:UBW is a good thematic follow-up to F/Z. F/Z examines the idea of saving the many by sacrificing the few and unambiguously rejects it; it ends on Kiritsugu passing down a different way, the path he originally wanted to follow. UBW then examines that different way, and it's the route that does that most directly. Can you really save everyone? Is it worth it to chase that impossibility when you're certain to fail? This is what literally the entire story is about, which is part of why Shirou is thrown into situations that are over his head so often; he spends a lot of time not even able to save anyone, let alone everyone. I feel you're both correct and incorrect about UBW following up F/Z thematically. Is it following up on Kiritsugu's ideal and his impossible mission? Yes. Is it doing it well, and it is matching the strength of narrative that narrative that F/Z had? I would argue no, both for the pacing reasons as mentioned, and the problem of Shirou, as also already mentioned. UBW addresses Saber with one line, then promptly focuses on other characters. Sure it ties into her story, but it's clearly not about her. All she's doing right now is staring slack jawed at Shirou and Archer and not doing much else. If UBW was really addressing it, Saber would have more character focus, development and pathos than she does currently. I know why this isn't the case, because apparently Fate is where this part is located. What I mean by "follow-up" is that F/Z's "sequel" (I know it's the other way around, humour me) address what happened in F/Z and build on it. Both in terms of actual narrative hooks (Saber, Kirei, the Matous, Angra Mainyu and the true nature of the Grail, etc), and in narrative weight, I.E, it has similar or the same level of emotional impact from the characters and narrative. I feel UBW fails in this regard, somewhat because of Shirou's characterization, which has been fundamentally irritating since episode 1. Other issues would be the pacing, the inconsistent character focus (pooling all of Ilyasviel's narrative into one episode was a bad idea and couldn't possibly work properly), along with the straight up removal of certain characters, such as Caster and Kuzuki. Sylphid posted:I'm beginning to see why Nasu told everyone not to expect a sequel to Fate/zero from this show. This was always going to be Unlimited Blade Works, so expecting every dangling plot thread from zero to be resolved is quite unrealistic, unless, of course, they were willing to almost completely change the plot of it. Yeah, I knew coming into this that it wouldn't follow F/Z. I suppose it's a confluence of a bunch of issues, plus that, that is making UBW not work for me at all. At least the fight scenes were good when they happened, and hopefully Gilgamesh does something soon so this Shirou and Archer mess can stop happening. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 09:25 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 08:46
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this show got intensely lame, at least lancer was there to salvage some of this episode
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May 24, 2015 09:01
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Just gonna say, as someone who hasn't read the VN, that this was my favorite episode so far. And not because of the Rin/Lancer parts. Also, wasn't Avalon shown in like the first episode when Shirou summoned Saber?
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May 24, 2015 09:23
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Yeah, I remember there being a pretty shiny silhouette of it. edit; Somehow, I feel kind of relieved there's a split of people who either liked or disliked this episode because at least it means there was still good parts to salvage it even if pacing's spiraled downwards.
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May 24, 2015 09:26
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Lord Justice posted:In the cases I'm aware of, Kuzuki took out Saber for about 2 minutes and had no lasting effect on her, and Rin's plan failed completely and would have ended with her dying without Archer's betrayal. Just because normal humans can fight Servants in very specific scenarios doesn't mean Servants wouldn't completely destroy a normal human 99% of the time. Just a little correction here: Rin's plan, with Archer engaging Kuzuki instead of Shirou would have almost certainly worked. EMIYA's betrayal was never bout saving Tohsaka- it was 100% about keeping Caster alive long anough to use Rule Breaker on him.
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May 24, 2015 09:29
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Lord Justice posted:Kiritsugu is more than capable of operating without Saber's help, and more often uses her as a simple distraction than relying on her power. He only does so when he has no other choice, such as when fighting other Servants, taking out that creature Caster summoned, or using Avalon against Kirei. And he is an idiot for doing so. Given one of the most powerful servants to command, who with a single artifact within his possession could have annihilated almost every servant by herself. But no, Kiritsugu is too much of a prideful gently caress up to even consider that.
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May 24, 2015 09:54
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Aumanor posted:Just a little correction here: Rin's plan, with Archer engaging Kuzuki instead of Shirou would have almost certainly worked. EMIYA's betrayal was never bout saving Tohsaka- it was 100% about keeping Caster alive long anough to use Rule Breaker on him. My apologies, but I was referring to Archer's betrayal of Caster, not Archer's betrayal of Rin. Rin's plan of attempting to melee Caster into submission would have failed since she would have used a Command Seal on Saber without Archer killing her. Wuxi posted:Just gonna say, as someone who hasn't read the VN, that this was my favorite episode so far. And not because of the Rin/Lancer parts. It was on screen for about a second or so:  So, yes, it is present, but still completely vague in how it relates to Shirou (You can infer from the "Magic Circuit" imagery that it is inside his body, but this is based on hindsight), and is a blink and you'll miss it moment. It's clear the Avalon reveal was meant for this current episode. Hunt11 posted:And he is an idiot for doing so. Given one of the most powerful servants to command, who with a single artifact within his possession could have annihilated almost every servant by herself. But no, Kiritsugu is too much of a prideful gently caress up to even consider that. Well, that and the fact that Saber was damaged for half of F/Z. It's also clear however that he doesn't want to overplay his hand too much, which is the smart thing to do considering Gilgamesh is present and wouldn't go down easily to Saber, if he could go down at all.
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May 24, 2015 09:58
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Hunt11 posted:And he is an idiot for doing so. Given one of the most powerful servants to command, who with a single artifact within his possession could have annihilated almost every servant by herself. But no, Kiritsugu is too much of a prideful gently caress up to even consider that. Considering everyone and their mother is running around with the Strongest Servant in the World, that is simply not good enough for Kiritsugu. Why the hell is someone with half a brain even trying to fight on the terms of their opponents? It's not like he's the only one, Tokiomi was actively colluding with the referees, of course Kiritsugu's going to target his opponent's weaknesses, not batter down their strengths with pure power. This was why people (not just those familiar with the vee-en) enjoyed F/Z. It had a MC who knew precisely what he was doing, as opposed to a harem MC that incompetently bumbles along until one of this multiverse selves manages to not die. This is good from a storytelling perspective, as the audience knows why a character wins or loses, whereas I still don't know why Ilya didn't squish everyone early in S1.
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May 24, 2015 10:43
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Einander posted:UBW is a good thematic follow-up to F/Z. F/Z examines the idea of saving the many by sacrificing the few and unambiguously rejects it; it ends on Kiritsugu passing down a different way, the path he originally wanted to follow. UBW then examines that different way, and it's the route that does that most directly. Can you really save everyone? Is it worth it to chase that impossibility when you're certain to fail? This is what literally the entire story is about, which is part of why Shirou is thrown into situations that are over his head so often; he spends a lot of time not even able to save anyone, let alone everyone. I disagree. Archer represents the exact same ideal as Kiritsugu: to try to single-handedly save the world at any price. That's what he hates about himself, that his naive ideal of saving everyone inevitably led to the same place Kiritsugu ended up. He could not escape the cycle. While "son unfortunately follows his father's footsteps" isn't a terrible core idea, fundamentally it doesn't say anything new. And if, as many believe, it's telling that same idea worse then there's really not much reason for it to exist. By contrast, while Heaven's Feel also "follows-up" on the issue of idealism, it takes its examination one step further. Naturally, since it itself is a follow-up to UBW. It also addresses pretty much everything else brought up by F/Z: the deuterogonist Kotomine, the Matou family circumstances, the nature of the grail itself, Ilya, etc. All of which were unceremoniously shoved aside by UBW to make room for the exactly one point it tries to make. Clarste fucked around with this message at 11:23 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 10:59
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Clarste posted:I disagree. Archer represents the exact same ideal as Kiritsugu: to try to single-handedly save the world at any price. That's what he hates about himself, that his naive ideal of saving everyone inevitably led to the same place Kiritsugu ended up. He could not escape the cycle. While "son unfortunately follows his father's footsteps" isn't a terrible core idea, fundamentally it doesn't say anything new. And if, as many believe, it's telling that same idea worse then there's really not much reason for it to exist. Kind of wish it was a more engaging point presented in a more engaging way, though. Nobody's talking like real people, and they're philosophibabbling about abstract concepts without enough visible stakes for us to care about them.
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May 24, 2015 11:16
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Zero was kind of a good spin on what you would've seen in Fate/UBW, since as you can see Shirou absolutely idolized Kiritsugu. The only reason he wanted to be a hero was that saving someone seemed to make Kiritsugu so happy. Then you see what he was actually like (which is sort of alluded to in HF) and welp. I'm really kind of shocked people are debating Avalon's inclusion, they couldn't have been less subtle about that. That said the Extreme Healing Factor thing they had going in this episode was kind of dumb and not really how it was supposed to work at this point in UBW but whatever.
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May 24, 2015 13:32
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Nate RFB posted:I'm really kind of shocked people are debating Avalon's inclusion, they couldn't have been less subtle about that. That said the Extreme Healing Factor thing they had going in this episode was kind of dumb and not really how it was supposed to work at this point in UBW but whatever. But yeah Avalon was supposed to just keep him in the fight rather than somehow being a full-heal, really wasn't feeling that.
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May 24, 2015 14:11
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One thing that is kinda glossed over is avalon is the real deal he has some kinda lovecraftian fairy relic shoved in him that is changing everything about him from dude who could strengthen things to "ultimate sword making dude who gains the life time of knowledge in a weapon from forging it" If i remember one of the bad ends right it hosed at one point and started trying to heal him by turning him into swords/jagged metal.
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May 24, 2015 14:49
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Zasze posted:One thing that is kinda glossed over is avalon is the real deal he has some kinda lovecraftian fairy relic shoved in him that is changing everything about him from dude who could strengthen things to "ultimate sword making dude who gains the life time of knowledge in a weapon from forging it" Similar to that, it's kind of annoying that this adaptation hasn't done anything with the philosophy/style behind Japanese archery that's in the VN, since that also connects as well and it leads into why the hell Emiya is an Archer rather than well... anything else. Overall I like this adaptation but it's missing things. That said (and because this constantly keeps coming up for some reason) Fate/Zero misses things as well, so what are going to do?
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May 24, 2015 15:24
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UBW definitely does not work nearly as well as an anime as zero did, even though I had my problems with zero too.
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May 24, 2015 15:31
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Zasze posted:If i remember one of the bad ends right it hosed at one point and started trying to heal him by turning him into swords/jagged metal. Actually, that Dead End is caused by Avalon just not working- it requires a connection with Saber to function, and Rider's Noble Phantasm cuts off the outside world to a degree. That's why once Saber's summoned inside the bounded field, Shirou survives even if he hits the ground. The swords thing is what Shirou's body does in the absence of supernatural healing. Aumanor fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 15:31
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I guess now that I've woken up I can go back to some things.Fangz posted:Kritisugu completely won insofar as the holy grail war was winnable. The only difference between what he did and what Shirou will manage in UBW was Waver coming back to clean up the remnants of the war afterwards, instead of everyone seeming to forget about the whole thing. Irisiviel was gonna die whether he participated or not, Einsbern being dicks about Ilya was outside his control, and his other assistant died on her own initiative. Even without being able to use the grail in the end, winning had value because without his participation Kotomine would have won instead. There is a reason that Kiritsugu won the war and still completely failed, and focusing on his competence compared to Shirou's, while it probably seems like a really legitimate complaint, ends up completely missing that Kiritsugu's methods and competence were completely wrong. EDIT: Clarste posted:I disagree. Archer represents the exact same ideal as Kiritsugu: to try to single-handedly save the world at any price. That's what he hates about himself, that his naive ideal of saving everyone inevitably led to the same place Kiritsugu ended up. He could not escape the cycle. While "son unfortunately follows his father's footsteps" isn't a terrible core idea, fundamentally it doesn't say anything new. And if, as many believe, it's telling that same idea worse then there's really not much reason for it to exist. Obviously the complete story and follow up is in HF, but UBW is not exactly a complete retread. Maybe it doesn't have enough depth or divergence to fill a 26 episode series as a compliment to F/Z, but it's not thematically saying the same thing. EDIT EDIT: I think I'm gonna make a short chart of degrees to which solutions given in each of the stories can beat the grail/solve real world problems: F/Z < UBW (with some side merits) < HF Twiddy fucked around with this message at 16:10 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 15:48
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Lord Justice posted:My apologies, but I was referring to Archer's betrayal of Caster, not Archer's betrayal of Rin. Rin's plan of attempting to melee Caster into submission would have failed since she would have used a Command Seal on Saber without Archer killing her. Dude at this point your both (A) willfully ignoring the on screen evidence that resolves the questions you have and (B) Kinda not getting that by being an adaption its not going to show or explain 100% of everything the VN did because they just can't, it's impossible. It assumes either you played the VN, or are willing to play the VN or read a Wiki to figure out the gaps. That's a basic requirement when watching any adaption. Shirou was given Avalon in Fate, this was explained in Fate, its expected that you should know this, it's understandable if you don't, but it isn't a legitimate criticism when your kinda going out of your way to make it one. And yes, normally 99% of the time a human cannot take on a Servant. In the case of Caster it is because she knows and commands magecraft so ancient and powerful that it's a Sorcery (explained in the VN) in comparison to modern Magecraft. In the case of Gilgamesh its because he owns the prototype of every Noble Phantasm that ever existed or will exist, and Noble Phantasms are mythological weapons or items that are the embodiment of a Hero's legend. Normally even a NP Sword can instantly cut through any defense a magus can throw up or any sword forged in modern day; and so on and so forth. But the thing is the reason is always generally vaguely unique to the abilities and NP's of each Servant; they are extremely powerful Spiritual beings but they have limits and constraints as well as certain specific advantages. Remember Gilgamesh is an Archer class Servant, so he has Independent Action; he's pretty much the single Servant Kiritsugu's methods absolutely would not have worked on and if it hadn't been for the Grail goop Saber and Kiritsugu would have been defeated then and there. However though I think you're misinterpreting Rin's battle with Caster, it failed because Kuzuki was able to beat up Shirou and stop Rin. Using a Command seal actually takes a certain amount of concentration and "time" it isn't instant. Shirou in one bad end in Fate loses his arm to Rider before he can use it. Otherwise Rin managed to completely school Caster (at the cost of ten years worth of gems). So in the fights so far, Shirou died to Lancer and was saved by Rin (the 99%). Shirou didn't fight Berserker, that was 100% Saber. Shirou would have died to Rider but she was just toying with him. Shirou also didn't fight Caster and was certainly dead if it wasn't for Archer's intervention. Archer didn't manage to kill Shirou then because Arguably he wasn't really trying to and Shirou has good reflexes. Shirou almost certainly would've died to Caster's spells if it weren't for Rin expending her gems entirely. Shirou would have died to Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh cared about it enough. It's well established that Archer also isn't trying to just outright kill Shirou but trying to make him admit he's wrong about his ideal. At what point is Shirou really supposed to have died but instead was saved by deus ex machina?
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May 24, 2015 16:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:At what point is Shirou really supposed to have died but instead was saved by deus ex machina?
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May 24, 2015 16:12
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Twiddy posted:got himself involved in fights that Kiritsugu didn't. This is really the crux of it for me really, Kiritsugu is the guy we know for a fact let others get gunned down because trying to save them he thought would only result in him dying and other purely utilitarian calculus of "If I save those people now, then I can't save ten times that number later" and lets them die. Speeding train about to run over a gi-*phwoompth*-rl? Oh look Shirou already jumped out, tackled the girl out of the way, and is making her dinner as a means of apologizing that he didn't do it sooner. And once you figure out the horrifying reasons why Shirou can do that it becomes way more interesting and then who gives a drat if sometimes that means he's saved by narrative contrivance? I want to see more!
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May 24, 2015 16:19
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i haven't played the VN but Shiro having Avalon was made plenty obvious by the one time they hinted at it. showing it materialize the same way and even flashing back to when Saber was summoned seemed like really obvious cues for you to put it all together. not to mention how apparent it was made it that Shiro should've died in the fire. i watched the last two episodes and didn't get anything Archer was talking about without reading a wiki, yet the Avalon thing was apparent. honestly it's a dumb as gently caress complaint.
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May 24, 2015 16:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is really the crux of it for me really, Kiritsugu is the guy we know for a fact let others get gunned down because trying to save them he thought would only result in him dying and other purely utilitarian calculus of "If I save those people now, then I can't save ten times that number later" and lets them die.
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May 24, 2015 16:23
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Twiddy posted:You forgot, so he can save ten times the number later by gunning other, bad people down and in the end his cycle doesn't actually accomplish what he wants it to. This is sorta I think the crux between the differences of Shirou's and Kiritsugu's ideals right? Shirou wants to save everyone, and he'll do it by jumping in front of you to directly save you (and how he became a Heroic Spirit, trying to save the people directly in front of him). Kiritsugu is all about saving you by proxy by killing bad guys right? And that's how Shirou's ideal got distorted a bit, because as a Counter Guardian that's all Archer can do is "kill people who might kill humanity regardless of whether they're good or evil?"?
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May 24, 2015 16:28
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This thread is making me glad I can just sit back and enjoy the anime with no knowledge of how the VN played out. I liked this episode a lot. Shirou is a pretty cool guy. Lancer too.
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May 24, 2015 16:30
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Twiddy posted:Are you kind of ignoring that UBW's answer to the same problem is different from F/Zs? Like, they attack similar problems, but they do it at different angles and with different solutions. I'm not gonna go into full spoiler-mode in this thread, but let's just say I find UBW's answer incredibly, ridiculously stupid, and the fact that HF was written by the same author at the same time makes it seems even more stupid, almost intentionally.
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May 24, 2015 16:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is sorta I think the crux between the differences of Shirou's and Kiritsugu's ideals right? Shirou wants to save everyone, and he'll do it by jumping in front of you to directly save you (and how he became a Heroic Spirit, trying to save the people directly in front of him). Kiritsugu is all about saving you by proxy by killing bad guys right? And that's how Shirou's ideal got distorted a bit, because as a Counter Guardian that's all Archer can do is "kill people who might kill humanity regardless of whether they're good or evil?"? The entire concept of separating people into "good guys" and "bad guys" is really simplifying things. The reason bad things happen has a very important aspect called circumstances that cause it to happen. Kiritsugu completely ignores this concept of circumstances and just solves problems as they keep coming up, playing a whack a mole until (as the Holy Grail taunted him with) everyone is dead. Shirou acknowledges that circumstances exist, and for this reason tries to save everyone. Purely preventative method of saving people rather than Kiritsugu's. Archer's problem is that in the end, circumstances cause problems, so people in general are the "problem." In other words, sometimes those circumstances are simply other people. Thus the ideal of "Save Everyone" can't be reached. Further, you can't save someone without another person's loss (these do not have to be equal). Another way to interpret it is that Kiritsugu's methodology does acknowledge that circumstances exist, and he only gets involved in the worst case scenario where you have to solve problems by killing other people. He found out that wasn't fulfilling at all, and tried to have his "son," Emiya, do something different. Emiya was brought up believing to save everyone, also found out that it wasn't that fulfilling (partly because it's impossible) and then when he died he ended up having to take over Kiritsugu's role anyway and soured. I guess I'm gonna go into Guardians a bit. Guardians are summoned by a supernatural entity to protect humanity. The grand joke is that the greatest threat to humanity is humanity itself. This is why Archer ends up killing people, because this supernatural entity is kind of messy when it needs to protect humanity. Note: I kind of forgot if this supernatural entity for this example is Alaya (basically the collective human subconscious) or Gaea, but that distinction doesn't necessarily matter here. It's worth noting that whoever this supernatural being is, they are a colossal fuckwad because they promised Archer that he'd be able to save people and he thought he'd get to continue doing what he was doing and they bait and switched him into Kiritsugu's role. Clarste posted:I'm not gonna go into full spoiler-mode in this thread, but let's just say I find UBW's answer incredibly, ridiculously stupid, and the fact that HF was written by the same author at the same time makes it seems even more stupid, almost intentionally. EDIT: I just completely restructured and added some to this post. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 17:03 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 16:39
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I think the fact it can engender this kind of in depth discussion kind of says something about FSN in and of itself.
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May 24, 2015 17:41
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The way I've always seen the progression of the VN, the Fate path is a simple story that you're expected to accept at face value, UBW rebels pretty hard against the themes of Fate, and then Heaven's Feel is just a bitter, jaded, less-idealistic look at everything up to that point. It's kinda like Fate is for kids, UBW is for edgy teens, and HF is for bitter adults.
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May 24, 2015 17:44
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Shinjobi posted:The way I've always seen the progression of the VN, the Fate path is a simple story that you're expected to accept at face value, UBW rebels pretty hard against the themes of Fate, and then Heaven's Feel is just a bitter, jaded, less-idealistic look at everything up to that point. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 17:58 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 17:55
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Of course, now that I have that in mind I want the HF film to be full on film noir, with Shirou drinking his sorrows away, nursing a cigarette as he goes. Taiga of course is the concerned bartender.
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May 24, 2015 18:04
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Shinjobi posted:Of course, now that I have that in mind I want the HF film to be full on film noir, with Shirou drinking his sorrows away, nursing a cigarette as he goes. Taiga of course is the concerned bartender. Would Cat Kotomine be there to comment?
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May 24, 2015 18:06
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Shinjobi posted:The way I've always seen the progression of the VN, the Fate path is a simple story that you're expected to accept at face value, UBW rebels pretty hard against the themes of Fate, and then Heaven's Feel is just a bitter, jaded, less-idealistic look at everything up to that point. and if you mention mind of steel im going to smack you
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May 24, 2015 18:07
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also the idea of associating bitterness with maturity is stupid imo
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May 24, 2015 18:08
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The older I've become the less bitter I am.
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May 24, 2015 18:10
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I'm bitter and (mentally) immature.
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May 24, 2015 18:11
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| # ? Jun 11, 2024 10:26 |
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Endorph posted:also the idea of associating bitterness with maturity is stupid imo To put it in the shortest terms for those not in the know, the explanation is that each route of F/SN is part of the metamorphosis into an adult, with Fate being the kid, UBW being the teenager, and HF being the adult.
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May 24, 2015 18:14
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