|
Fulchrum posted:You mean that thing both he and Hillary have said was a huge, huge mistake? Or is this one of those things where going to a popular position in the 90s was showing their true colors, but saying they now think it was a terrible thing (even if it's not popular to say so) is just pandering? Or it was pandering then and the "mistake" rhetoric is also pandering today. In fact that's the simplest and most likely explanation. There isn't a single issue I can think of, except some components of women's rights, where Hillary actually is a leader. Every single major issue today, from Iraq/middle east to immigration to LGBT rights Hillary has taken a very safe position that the public has already moved on. It's like she's perpetually 1-5 years behind the bleeding-edge of public sentiment on anything important and the positions she does take are so milquetoast and poll-tested as to be useless for determining what she actually is likely to do once elected (when pandering isn't as important). Feather fucked around with this message at 00:00 on May 25, 2015 |
#
?
May 24, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 13:28 |
|
|
Fulchrum posted:You mean that thing both he and Hillary have said was a huge, huge mistake? Or is this one of those things where going to a popular position in the 90s was showing their true colors, but saying they now think it was a terrible thing (even if it's not popular to say so) is just pandering? Yes, I'm sure saying, "Sorry I hosed you for votes." will be accepted with open arms by those still serving time because of it, and reveals them to be good people with everyone's best interests at heart. 
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
cheese posted:I can second the recommendation of this book - it really is excellent and thoroughly discredits the idea that Slavery and Capitalism were mutually exclusive (specifically that Slavery would eventually fall apart because of Capitalist pressures). Nothing could be further from the truth. Wait, there's arguments that slavery would have fallen to forces of Capitalism? How the hell would that work when after ignoring slavery capitalism went on to create company towns, repeatedly attempt to stiff workers on their wages, and develop vast monopolies that give consumers no choice but to comply?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
Feather posted:Or it was pandering then and the "mistake" rhetoric is also pandering today. In fact that's the simplest and most likely explanation. And yet she's infinitely preferable to the Republicans being 50-60 years behind the times. So it goes in US politics.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 00:14
|
|
|
Gyges posted:Wait, there's arguments that slavery would have fallen to forces of Capitalism? How the hell would that work when after ignoring slavery capitalism went on to create company towns, repeatedly attempt to stiff workers on their wages, and develop vast monopolies that give consumers no choice but to comply? Its part of the Lost Cause mythos, that the civil war wasn't about slavery, that it was about northern oppression, then they mumble something about Lee thinking slavery was on its way out, lie that slavery was unprofitable, and claim the free market would have brought freedom to all so the government freeing the slaves was terrible and shouldn't have been done, so Lincoln was a bloodthirsty tyrant and the southerners were in the right and capitalism is great guys don't question anything just stay mad at half the working class
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 00:23
|
|
|
Cigar Aficionado posted:Here you go! Mods, plz make the Michelle Bachmann picture my new AV. ~Thank you in advance~
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 00:27
|
|
|
Holy poo poo I had no idea the SC Freedom Summit took place in my hometown. 
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:And yet she's infinitely preferable to the Republicans being 50-60 years behind the times. So it goes in US politics. Jeb is the only clown in that poo poo show who is remotely close to being qualified to hold the office, and he's as stupid and incompetent as his brother. That said, save her stint as SoS I actually don't think Hillary is "infinitely" better than he is. She's smarter and more generally competent, but on the issues that matter she either is not likely to lead (social issues) or to lead poorly, or else she has similar goals in mind (economics).
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 02:11
|
|
|
Feather posted:Jeb is the only clown in that poo poo show who is remotely close to being qualified to hold the office, and he's as stupid and incompetent as his brother. That said, save her stint as SoS I actually don't think Hillary is "infinitely" better than he is. She's smarter and more generally competent, but on the issues that matter she either is not likely to lead (social issues) or to lead poorly, or else she has similar goals in mind (economics). "not likely to lead well on social issues" is still infinitely better than "burn the fucker down"
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 02:25
|
|
|
Feather posted:Jeb is the only clown in that poo poo show who is remotely close to being qualified to hold the office, and he's as stupid and incompetent as his brother. That said, save her stint as SoS I actually don't think Hillary is "infinitely" better than he is. She's smarter and more generally competent, but on the issues that matter she either is not likely to lead (social issues) or to lead poorly, or else she has similar goals in mind (economics). Laws passed from 2017-2021 would be very different Hillary vs Bush. Especially if a Bush president means a 3 GOP branch government and combined with how effective the GOP outside money is with influencing legislation now. Additionally the supreme court is a huge difference, especially if it means getting 5-4 Democratic court for 10-20 years. All of that combined would make a huge difference on "issues that matter".
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 02:32
|
|
|
7c Nickel posted:I think the only founding father who never owned slaves was Sam Adams. He made it a point to only employ free laborers. The worst thing I've heard about him is that his beer kind of sucked. Don't forget his cousin John.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 02:38
|
|
|
Feather posted:Jeb is the only clown in that poo poo show who is remotely close to being qualified to hold the office, and he's as stupid and incompetent as his brother. That said, save her stint as SoS I actually don't think "infinitely" better than he is. Anything Hillary will do is better than Iraq War II: Iranian Boogaloo. Do you not remember 2001-2009? Jeb has the same foreign policy advisors as his brother, and anything neoliberals can do to the economy with trade agreements is piss in the wind compared to what will happen if we attack Iran. Considering his foreign policy team, Jeb WILL put troops on the ground in Iraq. No matter what economic disagreements you and I have with the Democratic party, their neoliberal poo poo is infinitely preferable to a war with Iran.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Hillary Clinton lives my the maxim "These are my principles: if you don't like them, I have others". Sure, it's not particularly great, but she is willing to change her positions on social and economic policy in response to what is popular and/or effective. Sure, we'd love someone who'd been on the right side of the issue all along, but it makes her infinitely better than someone whose clock stopped working in the late 19th century. She has no ideals, yes, but at least she doesn't have any terrible ideals.
Morrow fucked around with this message at 03:21 on May 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:16
|
|
|
freemandela posted:Anything Hillary will do is better than Iraq War II: Iranian Boogaloo. Do you not remember 2001-2009? Jeb has the same foreign policy advisors as his brother, and anything neoliberals can do to the economy with trade agreements is piss in the wind compared to what will happen if we attack Iran. Considering his foreign policy team, Jeb WILL put troops on the ground in Iraq. No matter what economic disagreements you and I have with the Democratic party, their neoliberal poo poo is infinitely preferable to a war with Iran. Hell not just his foreign policy advisers, he has nearly the whole of anyone who ever worked in any Bush or Reagan administration and still hasn't had god smite them down on board.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:18
|
|
|
Clinton's time at State wasn't groundbreaking but it is too easy to forget that the GOP picks some real winners:
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:23
|
|
|
Morrow posted:Hillary Clinton lives my the maxim "These are my principles: if you don't like them, I have others". Sure, it's not particularly great, but she is willing to change her positions on social and economic policy in response to what is popular and/or effective. Sure, we'd love someone who'd been on the right side of the issue all along, but it makes her infinitely better than someone whose clock stopped working in the late 19th century. She has no ideals, yes, but at least she doesn't have any terrible ideals. And SCOTUS nominations from her are going to be a drat sight better than anything Bush or Walker would make. Can't say I'm hugely enthusiastic about voting for her, but considering the alternatives...
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:26
|
|
|
Going with Powell when you have these choices?  
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:28
|
|
|
Joementum posted:Going with Powell when you have these choices? I went with one that exists within living memory of most people posting here.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:31
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Don't forget his cousin John. Sam Adams Sr. is the one who made beer. Sam Adams Jr. ran the business into the ground, like he did every other business he ever tried. The only thing he was good at was politics. Sam Adams Sr. attempted to operate a land bank for farmers because there was a currency shortage in the colonies and most of the money was in the hands of the wealthy. The land bank was pretty successful, and the local economy began to improve until the British government forced Sam Adams Sr. to close the land bank down. He lost a lot of money when he was forced to pay his creditors in British money. Sam Adams Jr. was also punished for his dad's crimes. He was a student at Harvard at the time, and students were not only ranked academically, but ranked socially as well. Sam Adams Jr. was ranked at the bottom socially because of his father and the land bank.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:42
|
|
|
HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Sam Adams Sr. is the one who made beer. Sam Adams Jr. ran the business into the ground, like he did every other business he ever tried. The only thing he was good at was politics. I was just pointing out that John Adams both never owned slaves and was a founding father.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 03:57
|
|
|
Maybe thi has been discussed already, but I haven't seen it. It's pretty clear that Bernie won't be on the Clinton ticket because he doesn't bring anything to the table for voters, but is it possible he'd be offered a place in the Clinton Cabinet, and if so is it actually something that he might accept? I personally can't really see it happening, but since moving to Australia, I'm much further removed from the day to day of American politics.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:25
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Clinton's time at State wasn't groundbreaking but it is too easy to forget that the GOP picks some real winners: Powell was a genuinely good Secretary of State with one little exception. Too bad the goat he hosed was such a big one.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:25
|
|
|
PotatoManJack posted:It's pretty clear that Bernie won't be on the Clinton ticket because he doesn't bring anything to the table for voters Yeah, that's the reason all right. quote:but is it possible he'd be offered a place in the Clinton Cabinet No.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:27
|
|
|
PotatoManJack posted:Maybe thi has been discussed already, but I haven't seen it. It's pretty clear that Bernie won't be on the Clinton ticket because he doesn't bring anything to the table for voters, but is it possible he'd be offered a place in the Clinton Cabinet, and if so is it actually something that he might accept? I personally can't really see it happening, but since moving to Australia, I'm much further removed from the day to day of American politics. Nope! Cabinet officials are chosen with the idea being that they follow orders, defend administration policies and otherwise shut up and keep their heads down. Does that sound like Bernie Sanders to you?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:30
|
|
|
PotatoManJack posted:Maybe thi has been discussed already, but I haven't seen it. It's pretty clear that Bernie won't be on the Clinton ticket because he doesn't bring anything to the table for voters, but is it possible he'd be offered a place in the Clinton Cabinet, and if so is it actually something that he might accept? I personally can't really see it happening, but since moving to Australia, I'm much further removed from the day to day of American politics. It's highly unlikely Bernie will be anything in the Clinton Administration. He'll go back to the Senate having said his bit like so many Senators before him. Why would you want him in a Clinton Administration anyway? Unless he gets on the Supreme Court somehow he's not going to be anywhere near as powerful in whatever Executive Agency he's heading than he is in the Senate. Maybe if Hillary finds a way to ram him through as the next FED appointee?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:33
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Powell was a genuinely good Secretary of State with one little exception. Seeing as though that goat looks to be shaping up as a generation of civil war and regional unrest in the levant which is directly attributable to that moment in that photograph, gently caress the rest of his career. It isn't that he voted for that war or assented to it but that he participated in the selling of that war to the world on false pretenses. No senate vote even comes close to that level of crime.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:35
|
|
|
Gyges posted:It's highly unlikely Bernie will be anything in the Clinton Administration. He'll go back to the Senate having said his bit like so many Senators before him. Why would you want him in a Clinton Administration anyway? Unless he gets on the Supreme Court somehow he's not going to be anywhere near as powerful in whatever Executive Agency he's heading than he is in the Senate. Maybe if Hillary finds a way to ram him through as the next FED appointee? He's big on infrastructure and public transit, right? He might be good at head of DoT. But most likely he'll do the most good if he stays in the Senate, especially if Democrats ever get the majority back, because he can be a senior member on whatever committee he wants.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:44
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:He's big on infrastructure and public transit, right? He might be good at head of DoT. But most likely he'll do the most good if he stays in the Senate, especially if Democrats ever get the majority back, because he can be a senior member on whatever committee he wants. The thing is, there are plenty of competent, career bureaucrat/politician types who'd be fine running the DoT as well, you don't need an outspoken Senator for that. A few positions in the cabinet do warrant that kind of skillset, which is why John Kerry being Secretary of State is a fine fit, but most jobs seem more about implementing the technical details of the President's vision and for that you want an appropriately-skilled, ideologically-in-tune subordinate you can trust to do their job with the least supervision possible. If Bernie wanted into the cabinet or there was some cabinet post that'd suit him, Obama's been in power 8 years and I don't think there's been even a rumble about it. Actually, I'm a little curious how much turnover there'd be transitioning from an Obama to a Clinton White House. The Clintons have a huge political machine so they're probably not short on their own picks for most jobs, but there's a lot more in common between two Democratic administrations than a Democratic and Republican handover so maybe some will keep their positions. How about when Reagan was replaced by Bush Senior, lots of turnover there? Dolash fucked around with this message at 05:00 on May 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 04:57
|
|
|
Dolash posted:The thing is, there are plenty of competent, career bureaucrat/politician types who'd be fine running the DoT as well, you don't need an outspoken Senator for that. A few positions in the cabinet do warrant that kind of skillset, which is why John Kerry being Secretary of State is a fine fit, but most jobs seem more about implementing the technical details of the President's vision and for that you want an appropriately-skilled, ideologically-in-tune subordinate you can trust to do their job with the least supervision possible. Ford, Reagen, Bush Sr, Bush Jr was a loving revolving door no one got out of. I'm pretty sure both Rumsfield and Cheney worked for Ford and every Republican president after that.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 05:05
|
|
|
Dolash posted:Actually, I'm a little curious how much turnover there'd be transitioning from an Obama to a Clinton White House. The Clintons have a huge political machine so they're probably not short on their own picks for most jobs, but there's a lot more in common between two Democratic administrations than a Democratic and Republican handover so maybe some will keep their positions. How about when Reagan was replaced by Bush Senior, lots of turnover there? Outside the prestigious posts like Sec. of State or AG, isn't the finite length of the administration part of the selling point? I'm pretty sure a lot of the lesser cabinet positions turn over several times per Administration. Unless it's one of the agencies where getting a confirmation from the Republican Senate is only slightly less arduous than getting them to pass a bill.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 05:28
|
|
|
Hell will freeze over before there is a cabinet position for Bernie Sanders in a Clinton presidency.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 06:02
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:He's big on infrastructure and public transit, right? He might be good at head of DoT. But most likely he'll do the most good if he stays in the Senate, especially if Democrats ever get the majority back, because he can be a senior member on whatever committee he wants. I don't see any reason to think he'd be a good pick for cabinet, or why he'd want that over his Senate seat. Sanders is a great advocate, but I'm not sure if being mayor of a city of about 42k for a few terms is necessarily the kind of executive experience I'd want to see from someone who would be tasked with overseeing billions of dollars in spending. Plus, it'd be kind of a huge step down.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 06:13
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:I don't see any reason to think he'd be a good pick for cabinet, or why he'd want that over his Senate seat. Sanders is a great advocate, but I'm not sure if being mayor of a city of about 42k for a few terms is necessarily the kind of executive experience I'd want to see from someone who would be tasked with overseeing billions of dollars in spending. Plus, it'd be kind of a huge step down. Hence my second sentence.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
Dolash posted:Actually, I'm a little curious how much turnover there'd be transitioning from an Obama to a Clinton White House. The Clintons have a huge political machine so they're probably not short on their own picks for most jobs, but there's a lot more in common between two Democratic administrations than a Democratic and Republican handover so maybe some will keep their positions. How about when Reagan was replaced by Bush Senior, lots of turnover there? I'd be shocked if Clinton doesn't already have a plan of who she'd like where in an ideal Cabinet, (Mark Penn, finally getting his chance to shine as SoS  ) and there is very little reason for her to keep on any of Obama's people.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 13:08
|
|
|
Rumsfeld worked as an administrative assistant for a congressman when Eisenhower was president. Guys like Cheney and Rumsfeld work in the private sector for as long as they have to before finding another job in government.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 13:09
|
|
|
Peztopiary posted:I'd be shocked if Clinton doesn't already have a plan of who she'd like where in an ideal Cabinet, (Mark Penn, finally getting his chance to shine as SoS I really hope she has learned over the last decade what a goddamn wrecking ball Larry Summers is when given any input into economic affairs.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 14:20
|
|
|
HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Rumsfeld worked as an administrative assistant for a congressman when Eisenhower was president. Guys like Cheney and Rumsfeld work in the private sector for as long as they have to before finding another job in government. It's a testament to the strength of the nation that we're still here after so many decades of Rumsfeld trying to destroy us from within.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 14:28
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:Hell will freeze over before there is a cabinet position for Bernie Sanders in a Clinton presidency.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 15:57
|
|
|
Grey Fox posted:When was the last time a presidential candidate turned around and got tapped for a cabinet position immediately following the lost primary election anyway? Seems like that shift only happens at the VP level these days. Uhh, 2008.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 16:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 13:28 |
|
|
Wait no wrong Bush. I guess both W and Clinton didn't have any primary rivals in their cabinets.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2015 16:14
|
|
