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Burkion posted:Donna and the Doctor actually did a fair amount in that episode. Sigma was mostly the one doing stuff behind the scenes, but they were vital to things working out. Android Blues posted:If Clara and the Doctor hadn't been there the people of Earth would have blown up the moon instead of letting the space dragon hatch. That's a pretty big difference, actually! ??? Even in Forest of the Night the Doctor & co. broadcast a message telling people not to use herbicide on the trees, which would have wound up with the destruction of human civilization if they hadn't done it, so I think your memory of these episodes is foggy.
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May 26, 2015 16:47
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Android Blues posted:??? That message did dick all. There is no way, unless we're granting the human race magical powers like we did trees in that episode, that they would be able to spread defoliation agents across the entire world in such a short amount of time. Even if they magically could carpet bomb the entire world, that stuff takes time to work- and since the trees ARE magic as hell, there's no telling that it would work! Don't even bring that up either, because that's near the height of idiocy and 'not thinking through your words' bullshit that this episode pulled, right below the meds. You know what that kind of stuff does to a person? A lot of things, none of them good. As some one who lost his grandfather to cancer caused by Agent Orange, the idea that *ANY* government would willingly spray that bullshit over populated areas of their own citizens is just insultingly stupid. That goes beyond the fairy tale logic and hits square in the 'let's use mustard gas on ourselves to save ourselves' level of hosed.
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May 26, 2015 17:07
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Wait, so your issue is not "Clara and the Doctor didn't affect the plot", it's "they affected the plot in a way I recognised but found implausible and so chose to ignore, then complain about the alternate version of the episode I thought up"?
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May 26, 2015 17:10
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I mean, Forest of the Night isn't good. I just don't think this is a very coherent way of criticising it.
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May 26, 2015 17:11
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Android Blues posted:Wait, so your issue is not "Clara and the Doctor didn't affect the plot", it's "they affected the plot in a way I recognised but found implausible and so chose to ignore, then complain about the alternate version of the episode I thought up"? They didn't affect the plot because there was no way that message they put out stopped anything from happening, especially with the time scale we saw. They gave the message, sat around for a few minutes, and then the solar flare hit. The episode would have been exactly the same if they made the message or not. Same as Kill the Moon, actually- Clara would have decided not to kill the moon with or without the message. This is not hard to grasp. This is really poor writing. Worse than Who tends to be.
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May 26, 2015 17:14
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I mean, she wouldn't have been there and astronaut lady would have blown up the moon, presumably.
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May 26, 2015 17:17
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Android Blues posted:I mean, she wouldn't have been there and astronaut lady would have blown up the moon, presumably. Or just gotten killed by the moon spiders like her friends. That and, honestly? That amount of nuclear weapons wouldn't have done much to the moon, let alone whatever the hell the creature was inside. You don't get to be that big and get taken out by something that pathetic. Mind this is the same episode where the science said that the debris of the moon exploding just don't do anything and vanish and that the creature who weighed more than the moon didn't have a gravitational pull that would gently caress the planet due to moving around near it. Basically you start bringing any amount of sense into the episode and it all falls apart. That's not a good thing. It doesn't even have internal logic that you can rely on because it goes against science we've seen in previous Doctor Who episodes. But whatever, each episode is self contained. Sure, fine. The only thing they did in that episode was save one person's life, which is great, and continue the Clara Doctor relationship problem thing, which gets resolved in the next episode.
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May 26, 2015 17:25
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CobiWann posted:Sylvester McCoy is the Doctor in...Rrrrred. Fixed that for ya, bud.
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May 26, 2015 18:08
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Burkion posted:
That it makes it difficult to suspend your disbelief is a worthwhile complaint, i think, but "continue the Clara Doctor relationship problem thing" is a pretty big part of the season and sort of important for defining the way Capaldi acts in prior episodes. That doesn't necessarily mean it's well-handled, but "it's just about their relationship" is fine. The science fiction stuff is perfectly fine to serve as backdrop for character development, and the Doctor does not have to make a historical impact for an episode to be meaningful, I think. I do think it resolves a bit too quickly in the next episode, but there are at least holdovers in the way that they talk to each other. Barry Foster posted:Fixed that for ya, bud. "What word can we have McCoy repeat that will really let him chew on the scenery every time he says it, building until he's foaming at the mouth?"
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May 26, 2015 18:51
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Bicyclops posted:That it makes it difficult to suspend your disbelief is a worthwhile complaint, i think, but "continue the Clara Doctor relationship problem thing" is a pretty big part of the season and sort of important for defining the way Capaldi acts in prior episodes. That doesn't necessarily mean it's well-handled, but "it's just about their relationship" is fine. The science fiction stuff is perfectly fine to serve as backdrop for character development, and the Doctor does not have to make a historical impact for an episode to be meaningful, I think. I do think it resolves a bit too quickly in the next episode, but there are at least holdovers in the way that they talk to each other. A: literally anything you like as long as you give him the appropriate stage direction.
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May 26, 2015 18:53
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Fil5000 posted:A: literally anything you like as long as you give him the appropriate stage direction. "HHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCE!"
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May 26, 2015 19:13
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Is it possible to affect a plot so completely incoherent. When cause and effect have ceased to follow any sort of coherent link already, what does any character's actions or presence actually mean?
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May 26, 2015 19:36
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McCoy (spitting out sandwich): The turkey! The TURKEY, Hex. It's drrrrrry! Drrrrrrry! DRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!
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May 26, 2015 19:39
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Cerv posted:Is it possible to affect a plot so completely incoherent. When cause and effect have ceased to follow any sort of coherent link already, what does any character's actions or presence actually mean? I didn't have any trouble understanding Kill the Moon. I didn't have any trouble understanding Forest either, for what it's worth, although it's certainly a worse episode. Straightforward things happen, which people willfully misinterpret because they're convinced that these are Bad Episodes written by Bad Writers who Don't Understand Science. I mean: Burkion posted:That and, honestly? That amount of nuclear weapons wouldn't have done much to the moon, let alone whatever the hell the creature was inside. You don't get to be that big and get taken out by something that pathetic. What?
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May 26, 2015 19:46
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josh04 posted:I didn't have any trouble understanding Kill the Moon. I didn't have any trouble understanding Forest either, for what it's worth, although it's certainly a worse episode. Straightforward things happen, which people willfully misinterpret because they're convinced that these are Bad Episodes written by Bad Writers who Don't Understand Science. Yes people are just choosing not to like them because they don't like Doctor Who?
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May 26, 2015 19:54
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josh04 posted:I didn't have any trouble understanding Kill the Moon. I didn't have any trouble understanding Forest either, for what it's worth, although it's certainly a worse episode. Straightforward things happen, which people willfully misinterpret because they're convinced that these are Bad Episodes written by Bad Writers who Don't Understand Science. Nuclear weapons are great if you want to devastate a population or irradiate something. Really, bang up. They're less great if you want to actually wipe something out that's as solid as a planetary body. If you gathered every single nuclear weapon on the planet to one point and set them off, the planet would be relatively fine. It'd have a new pot hole but that's about it. Especially if you just did it from the surface without forcing the explosion downwards at all. All you would accomplish putting those weapons on the moon the way they did would be to give it a new crater, and not a particularly big one. Unless they stepped up their doomsday weapons in the time skip between modern day and whenever that was. Either way it wouldn't affect a creature that has grown as large as a planetary body like a moon. Or even larger, as we saw with the Dragon. To be that big, even or especially in space, the thing would have to be drat near indestructible. So the entire moral dilemma part of the episode falls apart when you realize it doesn't actually matter if they set the bombs off or not- they won't kill the thing. They may not even harm it. But this is also the episode that, again, tells us that the moon is made of some kind of weird material that wouldn't wipe out all life on Earth if it broke apart, and the creature that weighs more than the moon doesn't have a gravity field worth mentioning. Basically I guess a huge problem with the episode is that it presents the issue as a science problem, and then shoves its head as far up the 'it's magic it doesn't matter' hole as possible immediately after.
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May 26, 2015 20:33
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The episode says that the nukes will kill the dragon. All the scientific authorities within the story agree, and we are given no reason to believe that they are lying or mistaken. Therefore, the nukes would kill the dragon. That's how stories work. Your real-world scientific knowledge is less than irrelevant, it's misleading.
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May 26, 2015 20:52
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But how do the nukes interrupt the cellular mitosis?
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May 26, 2015 20:58
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Because The Show Says So, that's how.
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May 26, 2015 20:59
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DoctorWhat posted:The episode says that the nukes will kill the dragon. All the scientific authorities within the story agree, and we are given no reason to believe that they are lying or mistaken. Yes because if some one says something is sure to work, that means it will always work. I mean just look at all of those Godzilla movies where they come up with a sure fire new weapon to kill him that totally does. Except when they don't ever. None of those people knew what the hell that dragon was, not even the Doctor. They were assuming the weapons would kill them- much like they were assuming that the weapons would have accomplished anything on the moon other than a hell of a light show.
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May 26, 2015 21:00
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I was going to post more science buzzword jokes but the only ones I can remember are reversing the polarity and that one line from Jurassic Park.
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May 26, 2015 21:05
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If you can't tell the narrative difference between a failed assault on a Kaiju in a Toho film (which serves to escalate action) and what is essentially presented as a Genocide Button plot device (literally a ticking clock forcing a moral decision) then I don't know what to tell you.
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May 26, 2015 21:06
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DoctorWhat posted:If you can't tell the narrative difference between a failed assault on a Kaiju in a Toho film (which serves to escalate action) and what is essentially presented as a Genocide Button plot device (literally a ticking clock forcing a moral decision) then I don't know what to tell you. That's the thing- I can. The Oxygen Destroyer is a super genocide weapon that is not based in reality at all. It is a super weapon that is given the weight needed as a device that can kill Godzilla. The bundle o nukes in Kill The Moon are closer to the special V8 missiles in Godzilla VS Mothra 1964, or the nuclear weapon strike promised in Godzilla Returns, 1984. Both are presented by very sure minded scientists that this will be what ends Godzilla, but both are based on weapons we know and understand, and so we know that they won't work. Same thing here. The nukes are too realistic a plot device for what they wanted because we know how they work and why they wouldn't work. If you can buy into it, that's fine. But there's nothing in the rest of the episode that helps you do that.
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May 26, 2015 21:13
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So which episodes of Doctor Who do you like? This is not a trick question or an attempt to trap you into admitting that you enjoy an episode of Doctor Who in which scientifically implausible things happen or the stakes aren't high enough or whatever, I am genuinely curious at this point where your 'this poo poo doesn't bother me because the episode's so good' line is.
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May 26, 2015 21:20
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docbeard posted:So which episodes of Doctor Who do you like? Oh I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who. I enjoyed most of season 1 with a few exceptions, large parts of season 2, more than not of season 3, almost all of 4, all of season 5 except for Cold Blood... Hell within season 7 and 8, four of my favorite episodes have happened. Mummy, Town Called Mercy, Flatline, Cold War.
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May 26, 2015 21:32
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I mean, I think the general trajectory of the episode is enough that we, as an audience, are pretty sure that the scientists are right, particularly as the science authority for the show, the Doctor, is presenting the entire situation as a moral dilemma. It may feel unrealistic enough for you that it becomes too difficult to swallow, but I don't think there's confusion on behalf of the narrative as written.
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May 26, 2015 21:40
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, I think the general trajectory of the episode is enough that we, as an audience, are pretty sure that the scientists are right, particularly as the science authority for the show, the Doctor, is presenting the entire situation as a moral dilemma. It may feel unrealistic enough for you that it becomes too difficult to swallow, but I don't think there's confusion on behalf of the narrative as written. Oh no, I acknowledge that it killing the dragon is a more personal issue. It being able to destroy the moon on the other hand, less scientifically viable in a more public sense.
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May 26, 2015 21:42
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So I just listened to Project: Lazarus and someone please tell me that is the last of the Forge nonsense. Even if it's a lie, I'll feel better.
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May 26, 2015 22:56
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The forge itself never comes back, not REALLY... but it's not the last Project: audio
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May 26, 2015 23:25
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DoctorWhat posted:The forge itself never comes back, not REALLY... but it's not the last Project: audio There's one more audio - Project: Eternity - and a novel - Project: Valhalla. Nimrod is a great example of a writer falling in love with a character. I liked the first story, Project: Twilight, but any goodwill got thrown away by the second Forge story.
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May 26, 2015 23:37
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Every story I've listened to involving THE FORGE has just made me roll my eyes. It's so contrived and is trying so hard to be cool and "mature" and mysterious and ugghhhh it's so awful. There's an audio involving THE FORGE that was written by Joseph Lidster too 
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May 26, 2015 23:41
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Science accuracy only matters to the extent to which a five to eight year old would think it stupid and distracting if it's wrong (eg. gravity being heavier on the moon than on the Earth, people growing new limbs because that's what people do, that kind of thing). If something sets out to be scientifically accurate and fails then you can critique it on the more nitpicky level, but Doctor Who does not even slightly do this.
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May 27, 2015 00:40
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Like the moon getting heavier because it's an egg?
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May 27, 2015 00:52
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The Forge are also shoved in at the end of "No Man's Land" as a somewhat forced twist. By implication, they also tie-in a bit to Hex's backstory as well.
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May 27, 2015 01:26
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This looks awesome: http://io9.com/a-strange-event-links-doctors-together-in-this-doctor-w-1706936295 quote:Written by Doctor Who and comics scribe Paul Cornell (Wolverine, Captain Britain) and with art by Neil Edwards, the five-part miniseries brings the current 10th, 11th and 12th Doctor comic arcs to a close for the event, before new adventures for the three Doctors and their companions start later this year. Oh and The War Doctor! 
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May 27, 2015 01:57
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I've only been reading the Eleventh Doctor series, but that one, at least, is fantastic. Also, I could've sworn I saw a Ninth Doctor book on the rack a couple of weeks ago. Is that published by another company, or are they just not involving the book in the crossover?
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May 27, 2015 03:20
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Rochallor posted:I've only been reading the Eleventh Doctor series, but that one, at least, is fantastic. Nope, same company. Sometimes I think it's Titan's plan to have a book based on every Doctor.
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May 27, 2015 10:16
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CobiWann posted:Synopsis – Original ideas and some terrifying moments get lost by The Nowhere Place being derailed due to a weak military antagonist and an out-of-place third episode that adds little to the rest of the story. 3/5 I have to agree it's ultimately a mediocre story, in execution at least. The concepts are great, the imagery stands out, but they just don't pull it off. As I've said before though, I'd rather that Big Finish try and fail to do this kind of crazy poo poo than to play it safe and make competent but unremarkable stories. At least in the former, there is the chance they'll figure out how to refine their narrative flow, editing and character arcs to live up to the cool and crazy concepts they introduce.
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May 27, 2015 12:32
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Burkion posted:None of those people knew what the hell that dragon was, not even the Doctor. They were assuming the weapons would kill them- much like they were assuming that the weapons would have accomplished anything on the moon other than a hell of a light show. Alternately, the Doctor knew exactly what it was. How could he not? Future Earth is going to be littered with references to the time the moon hatched and a dragon came out. That poo poo is crazy. When he comes back he knows all about how the moon dragon event affected humanity's future in space. He definitely knew. He probably knew the nukes couldn't hurt it too. Moon dragon was going to hatch one way or another, and the effect on humanity would likely be much the same either way. In which case the decision wasn't really about the moon or earth at all. It was about Clara and Courtney.
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May 27, 2015 13:05
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Jerusalem posted:I have to agree it's ultimately a mediocre story, in execution at least. The concepts are great, the imagery stands out, but they just don't pull it off. As I've said before though, I'd rather that Big Finish try and fail to do this kind of crazy poo poo than to play it safe and make competent but unremarkable stories. At least in the former, there is the chance they'll figure out how to refine their narrative flow, editing and character arcs to live up to the cool and crazy concepts they introduce. Oh yeah, I’m all for reaching for the brass ring and not quite getting there. The Nowhere Place would have been nearly impossible to do on television. Hell, a lot of Big Finish’s stories would be hard to pull off on television. I prefer a story take a risk or be a bit “out there” than run of the mill and mundane. The worst thing any story could be is BORING.
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May 27, 2015 13:30
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