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ChairMaster posted:Are you new to the whole "learning things about America" game? This is par for the course, not much different than everything else in this thread. I never imagined the shitcycle of fines and incarceration that was explained in that video, EVER.
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May 28, 2015 05:33
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Agrajag posted:I never imagined the shitcycle of fines and incarceration that was explained in that video, EVER. How else you are you gonna make money when nobody wants to pay taxes? And who's gonna do anything about it? Nobody has the power to change anything, and everybody knows it. Why even care about things you can't change? e: I don't understand the idea that so many people have that just because a country makes a lot of money, that means that the people who run that country must be treating it's people fairly, or even in a manner that is anything but 100% exploitative. The only thing needed for the American government, or that of any country, to exploit and abuse it's people is a good excuse and a system in place that stops anybody from ever being able to do anything about it. When we read about lovely middle eastern countries where all women are literally slaves to their husbands or countries with caste systems or whatever we all shrug our shoulders and say "well what do you expect?", but when you read about the systems that keep America running, (ones that are only slightly less transparent than those of the less wealthy world) so many people are shocked and appalled. I don't get it. ChairMaster fucked around with this message at 05:57 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 05:42
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It's been interesting to see this getting attention now, I went through a pretty drawn out and expensive series of fines after having my license suspended for a random insurance check (without ever even having to drive uninsured--a couple weeks after my insurance had lapsed briefly the state sent me a letter requiring me to prove I had insurance on one of the days where it was lapsed, or have my license suspended for 6 months plus a fine). I was broke enough at the time that I got buried under fines and couldn't get out from under them for 7 years, all while I drove on a suspended license. Wound up costing me over $8000 in court fees and tickets, and a couple of nights in jail (and then paying for remedial driving courses, and paying to retake all the tests). That time included a couple of occasions of police showing up at my door (and me not answering) and them yelling to me through the door to turn myself in. The only reason I was ever able to get it all sorted was I landed a decently paying job and was eventually able to save enough money up. For someone without a clear way out of poverty I don't know how you would ever break that cycle.
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May 28, 2015 06:04
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You're not supposed to be able to break out of it, that's the whole point. Poverty is supposed to be permanent, someone hosed up somewhere along the way by letting you escape it.
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May 28, 2015 06:07
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FRINGE posted:Its those drat cameras "making" cops look bad again! Case was dismissed by the court because the officer admitted the only reason he arrested her was refusal to give the name and knew that she was not required to give her name. Barstow Police are completely hosed up and one of the highest paid departments in San Bernardo County at the same time. They have a nasty habit of hiring cops who were fired by LAPD. Imagine a small town department staffed and partially supervised by people too violent or racist for LAPD. nm fucked around with this message at 06:12 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 06:09
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Hilbert Spaceship posted:It's been interesting to see this getting attention now, I went through a pretty drawn out and expensive series of fines after having my license suspended for a random insurance check (without ever even having to drive uninsured--a couple weeks after my insurance had lapsed briefly the state sent me a letter requiring me to prove I had insurance on one of the days where it was lapsed, or have my license suspended for 6 months plus a fine). I was broke enough at the time that I got buried under fines and couldn't get out from under them for 7 years, all while I drove on a suspended license. Wound up costing me over $8000 in court fees and tickets, and a couple of nights in jail (and then paying for remedial driving courses, and paying to retake all the tests). That time included a couple of occasions of police showing up at my door (and me not answering) and them yelling to me through the door to turn myself in. The only reason I was ever able to get it all sorted was I landed a decently paying job and was eventually able to save enough money up. For someone without a clear way out of poverty I don't know how you would ever break that cycle. Something very similar to this happened to me but I had moved to another state which made it an even bigger ordeal. They kept telling me I had to go back to the first state to go to court and take care of it, but that wasn't going to happen. Eventually I was able to speak to a judge and I literally asked him "what will this cost for me to solve this today". Ended up paying both states a few thousand dollars to clear it up (in addition to attending driving school and getting booked and stuff), the lesson I learned is that you can either pay to make the problem go away or go to jail.
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May 28, 2015 06:19
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ChairMaster posted:You're not supposed to be able to break out of it, that's the whole point. Poverty is supposed to be permanent, someone hosed up somewhere along the way by letting you escape it. http://exiledonline.com/recovered-e...ous/#more-29048 quote:“…everyone but an idiot knows that the lower classes must be kept poor, or they will never be industrious.”
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May 28, 2015 06:31
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ElCondemn posted:Something very similar to this happened to me but I had moved to another state which made it an even bigger ordeal. They kept telling me I had to go back to the first state to go to court and take care of it, but that wasn't going to happen. Eventually I was able to speak to a judge and I literally asked him "what will this cost for me to solve this today". Ended up paying both states a few thousand dollars to clear it up (in addition to attending driving school and getting booked and stuff), the lesson I learned is that you can either pay to make the problem go away or go to jail. Even going to jail doesn't make it go away though. For me it was a cycle of "license suspended, can't drive until I make enough money to pay fines -> gotta drive to keep my job -> get caught, get another ticket -> repeat" with a side of sometimes they just arrest you and book you for awhile. You can spend a few days in jail and get time served for some of it, but once you're in deep it's just going to take the last ticket or two off, and that's not even getting into all the court fines and processing fees and classes you have to pay for. One night when I did get booked, the cop was genuinely apologetic about having to arrest me and explained that one of the county judges had gotten tired of people not skipping on their tickets, so anyone with more than 3 traffic capias had to be booked instead of re-cited (a re-citation for missed court dates was standard), apparently there were just too many people who couldn't pay up. Of course most of the traffic courts didn't allow payment plans, and you could only get 1-2 stay-to-pays (and could maybe get a continuance on top of that if the judge wasn't an rear end in a top hat), but some of the courts were literally cash only, payment in full immediately or they would put you in jail. I had to walk out of a couple of court appearances after it was clear what sort of judge was in for the day.
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May 28, 2015 06:35
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KomradeX posted:http://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/7/71/587596/judge-wont-seal-photo-cpd-cops-posing-african-american-man-antlers Cop needs a better attorney, stat quote:In his closing arguments at the police board hearing, Herbert emphasized the lack of information about where and when the photo was taken — and the mystery surrounding the African-American man’s identity.
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May 28, 2015 06:38
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Hilbert Spaceship posted:It's been interesting to see this getting attention now, I went through a pretty drawn out and expensive series of fines after having my license suspended for a random insurance check (without ever even having to drive uninsured--a couple weeks after my insurance had lapsed briefly the state sent me a letter requiring me to prove I had insurance on one of the days where it was lapsed, or have my license suspended for 6 months plus a fine). I was broke enough at the time that I got buried under fines and couldn't get out from under them for 7 years, all while I drove on a suspended license. Wound up costing me over $8000 in court fees and tickets, and a couple of nights in jail (and then paying for remedial driving courses, and paying to retake all the tests). That time included a couple of occasions of police showing up at my door (and me not answering) and them yelling to me through the door to turn myself in. The only reason I was ever able to get it all sorted was I landed a decently paying job and was eventually able to save enough money up. For someone without a clear way out of poverty I don't know how you would ever break that cycle. Wait, you were cited for not having insurance even though you weren't driving? Can you tell us what jurisdiction this happened in? I believe you, I just really want to know how you could be found guilty of that.
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May 28, 2015 06:59
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Shooting Blanks posted:Wait, you were cited for not having insurance even though you weren't driving? Can you tell us what jurisdiction this happened in? I believe you, I just really want to know how you could be found guilty of that. Was living in Ohio at the time, maybe 15 years ago? If you had a vehicle registered to you (without some non-driving exemption), then it had to be insured at all times. The "random" checks were supposedly part of that enforcement. I'm still convinced my insurance company informed the state that I was lapsed. This is all separate from an SR-22 requirement, which you can get stuck with if you've been caught without insurance (including through a mail check), which costs an additional monthly fee, paid to your insurance company that carries the requirement that you have to maintain that insurance (or a similar policy) for a period of some-many years (whether you're actually driving or not), and if it lapses the insurance company is required to let the state know and your license is automatically suspended again plus another fine and right back into the whole cycle again.
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May 28, 2015 07:04
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FRINGE posted:Its those drat cameras "making" cops look bad again! Honestly, I'm surprised that black people maintain any inkling of patriotism towards this country, because if you want to make a sworn enemy out of your own countrymen, this is how you do it. Then again, I suppose this is why the feds neutralized the Black Panther party and anything remotely leftist.
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May 28, 2015 07:30
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Tubesock Holocaust posted:Honestly, I'm surprised that black people maintain any inkling of patriotism towards this country, because if you want to make a sworn enemy out of your own countrymen, this is how you do it.
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May 28, 2015 08:13
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FRINGE posted:Its those drat cameras "making" cops look bad again! That video is so great in a horrible way. "Why are you arresting me?" "Uhhh..." Just loving lol.
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May 28, 2015 09:27
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This thread is like the Xbox Sharktank. Instead of a new lows everyday, its new levels of terror.
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May 28, 2015 11:27
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Hilbert Spaceship posted:Was living in Ohio at the time, maybe 15 years ago? If you had a vehicle registered to you (without some non-driving exemption), then it had to be insured at all times. The "random" checks were supposedly part of that enforcement. I'm still convinced my insurance company informed the state that I was lapsed. It was still annoying.
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May 28, 2015 11:43
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Here's the sad part, for the two insurance guys, if you could have afforded a lawyer, he could have gotten you off. $8000 for that fine is excessive, which makes it unconstitutional (8th amendment, in the bill of rights). Also, since he threw you in jail for not paying money, that's a debtor's prison, which is illegal. That Judge is just as much of a Criminal as you guys, and maybe worse, as he's undercutting the bill of Rights, which is sort of what the nation runs on.
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May 28, 2015 13:59
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Anora posted:Here's the sad part, for the two insurance guys, if you could have afforded a lawyer, he could have gotten you off. $8000 for that fine is excessive, which makes it unconstitutional (8th amendment, in the bill of rights). Also, since he threw you in jail for not paying money, that's a debtor's prison, which is illegal. Oh, to be young and idealistic again.
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May 28, 2015 14:14
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quote:The head of the Cleveland police department's patrol union said aspects of the agreement that mandates sweeping reforms to the city's police department could put officers in danger. #NotTheOnion
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May 28, 2015 14:15
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Anora posted:Here's the sad part, for the two insurance guys, if you could have afforded a lawyer, he could have gotten you off. $8000 for that fine is excessive, which makes it unconstitutional (8th amendment, in the bill of rights). Also, since he threw you in jail for not paying money, that's a debtor's prison, which is illegal. In this case the judge is a criminal and the system is at fault. Everybody knows that the poor have a really really hard time keeping all their bills paid. It comes with being poor. The right thing to do is say "OK you can pay that a week late it's fine" or exchange things like community service if a poor can't pay fines (well the park needs cleaned...can you get there by walking? OK, your next day off go pick up the garbage in the park and we'll forget about this whole thing) or such. There are plenty of options but instead so much of America is geared toward deliberately punishing the poor. There are jurisdictions that hammer the poor as hard as they can because they know they can get away with it. The poor can't afford lawyers and probably don't even know what their rights are in every case. Hell there have even been reports of police using particular interrogation techniques that led to false positives like half the time. The police were literally pulling people in, getting them to confess to crimes they couldn't possibly have committed, then patting themselves on the back for a job well done. American policing is loving insane and has nothing do with actual justice or crime prevention.
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May 28, 2015 14:22
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That actually happened. Not with a firearm (the example I'm thinking of involves handcuffs), but use of force reporting policies have led to lazy idiot morons not exercising their force options properly because they didn't feel like making words go on paper. The solution is to simplify the use of force report and require them for basically anything that has you touching someone else. Ours were little more than some checkboxes and a space for narrative text that should already be typed into the report anyway. ^X, ^V, I'm going back out now. Anora posted:Here's the sad part, for the two insurance guys, if you could have afforded a lawyer, he could have gotten you off. $8000 for that fine is excessive, which makes it unconstitutional (8th amendment, in the bill of rights). Also, since he threw you in jail for not paying money, that's a debtor's prison, which is illegal. On the other hand, if you could've afforded a lawyer you could've afforded insurance. ToxicSlurpee posted:so much of America is geared toward deliberately punishing the poor And that is why I did not flee tough prospects in my own country to work in yours. Holy balls some of your CJ machinery is broken.
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May 28, 2015 14:23
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Hell there have even been reports of police using particular interrogation techniques that led to false positives like half the time. Like the Reid technique, which police departments pay the sole consulting firm that owns it to train them in. quote:The use of the Reid technique on youth is prohibited in several European countries because of the incidence of false confessions and wrongful convictions that result. quote:"[I]t’s not the technique that causes false or coerced confessions but police detectives who apply improper interrogation procedures." EDIT: Oh, right, I forgot: quote:Indeed, Reid's breakthrough case resulted in an overturned conviction decades later. From the linked article: quote:On December 14, 1955, Darrel Parker came home for lunch from his job as a forester in Lincoln, Nebraska. A recent graduate of Iowa State, he had moved to Lincoln with his wife, Nancy, who worked as a dietician for a flour-and-noodle company and had a cooking show on the local television station. He found her dead in their bedroom. Her face was battered, her hands and feet were bound, and a cord had been knotted around her neck. The medical examiner later determined that she had been raped before the murder. Fifty-six years. Fifty-six loving years before a man was finally cleared of the rape and murder of his own wife, because of this supposedly foolproof technique. Kugyou no Tenshi fucked around with this message at 15:31 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 15:19
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Anora posted:Here's the sad part, for the two insurance guys, if you could have afforded a lawyer, he could have gotten you off. $8000 for that fine is excessive, which makes it unconstitutional (8th amendment, in the bill of rights). Also, since he threw you in jail for not paying money, that's a debtor's prison, which is illegal. It wasn't $8000 for one ticket. It was small things that compounded over years (skip out on a court date because you couldn't pay and didn't want to go to jail? That's gonna cost you more later, etc) as well as administrative fines from a bunch of different sources. Had it been as simple as scraping together enough money to go see a lawyer that would've been great, but it's a hell of a lot tougher than that. The only easy way to deal with it is to have the money up front so that the first ticket(s) don't break you (and you never have to let your insurance lapse).
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May 28, 2015 15:55
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When not to call the police. quote:Man Threatens Suicide, Police Kill Him http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/28/man-calls-suicide-line-police-kill-him.html
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May 28, 2015 15:59
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flakeloaf posted:That actually happened. Not with a firearm (the example I'm thinking of involves handcuffs), but use of force reporting policies have led to lazy idiot morons not exercising their force options properly because they didn't feel like making words go on paper. The solution is to simplify the use of force report and require them for basically anything that has you touching someone else. Ours were little more than some checkboxes and a space for narrative text that should already be typed into the report anyway. ^X, ^V, I'm going back out now. Are use of force reports mocked up on a department-by-department basis or are there some standard examples that are used across geographic regions/nationally? I don't know enough about the specific reports that will be required in Cleveland but I understand full well that the union head is basically just doing whatever he can to raise a public stink about the changes. To an outsider the optics of his positions are pretty loving terrible, but on the other hand what is he going to gripe about, the pistol whip ban? Hahaha.
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May 28, 2015 16:01
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:When not to call the police. Never call the police.
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May 28, 2015 16:03
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Should be perfectly safe if someone with darker skin is around.
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May 28, 2015 16:04
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:When not to call the police. Never? Unless there is a threat of serious physical violence happening, because calling the cops seems to result in someone dead pretty often. It looks like she didn't even call 911, just the non-emergency number which i assume is just dialing the local police directly and asking them to send someone out to escort the guy to the hospital. instead he is shot and killed for the crime of being mentally unstable.
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May 28, 2015 16:06
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Alligator Horse posted:Are use of force reports mocked up on a department-by-department basis or are there some standard examples that are used across geographic regions/nationally? I don't know enough about the specific reports that will be required in Cleveland but I understand full well that the union head is basically just doing whatever he can to raise a public stink about the changes. To an outsider the optics of his positions are pretty loving terrible, but on the other hand what is he going to gripe about, the pistol whip ban? Hahaha. I imagine they're peculiar to each department, though it's entirely possible for one to make a really good version and others nearby to simply crib it and put their own name at the top. I'll see if I can find one of ours. I don't understand what all the complaining's about. If you're even going to pretend to be accountable, you need to document what you're doing, especially when what you're doing involves violating someone's right to liberty and security of their person. If it takes you countless hours to fill out UOF reports then you are either illiterate, inarticulate, dishonest or unacceptably forgetful. I suppose it could be a violation of the officer's 5th amendment rights to compel them to make inculpatory admissions about exactly how far away they were from that unarmed black man's back before their weapons went off 62 times; I don't know enough about how US constitutional law works to have any answers for how one might legislate that problem away. Up here we just compel the statements anyway and put them in the same basket as inculpatory verbal testimony and all those other things that are inadmissible against you in court  Hilbert Spaceship posted:It wasn't $8000 for one ticket. It was small things that compounded over years (skip out on a court date because you couldn't pay and didn't want to go to jail? That's gonna cost you more later, etc) as well as administrative fines from a bunch of different sources. Had it been as simple as scraping together enough money to go see a lawyer that would've been great, but it's a hell of a lot tougher than that. Unless you have specific legal advice from a lawyer who is physically sitting across the table from you and tells you to skip out on a subpoena with those exact words, never ever ever skip out on a goddamned subpoena. That's as good as a "Get Into Jail Free" card on your next trip to court. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 16:35 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:31
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Pohl posted:That video is so great in a horrible way. It is only funny until you realize that after all this, the District Attorney of San Bernardino Michael Ramos (who wants to run for AG this election), the guy who made that video about how Jon Stewart was so wrong about police brutality, charged her and wanted her to go to jail for being beat up during an illegal detention. Only because a judge wised up to this sham halfway through trial (and some great work my her public defender) did she get the case dismissed. Edit: the DA had the video at the time he made these choices.
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May 28, 2015 16:31
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:When not to call the police. Jesus Christ. I know Toronto's not a very important city outside of Canada, but the Iacobucci report into exactly this sort of thing is both a pretty good read and a recitation of things that should be plainly obvious to anyone who gives a poo poo about prote....ohhh there I go again, sorry.
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May 28, 2015 16:40
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oohhboy posted:This thread is like the Xbox Sharktank. Instead of a new lows everyday, its new levels of terror. They named the Third Reich the Reich One.
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May 28, 2015 16:49
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flakeloaf posted:I imagine they're peculiar to each department, though it's entirely possible for one to make a really good version and others nearby to simply crib it and put their own name at the top. I'll see if I can find one of ours. He said earlier that going into court when certain judges were presiding was a get into jail free card unless you had cash in hand in full.
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May 28, 2015 16:53
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GreyPowerVan posted:Never? Unless there is a threat of serious physical violence happening, because calling the cops seems to result in someone dead pretty often. It looks like she didn't even call 911, just the non-emergency number which i assume is just dialing the local police directly and asking them to send someone out to escort the guy to the hospital. instead he is shot and killed for the crime of being mentally unstable. Not only did she call the non-emergency line, she explicitly stated that she did not feel threatened. She went out of her way to prevent exactly what happened. Despite her best efforts, the cops apparently only heard "knife" and decided to bust out the AR-15s because showing up in a suicidal man's bedroom carrying long-range weapons is a smart and rational course of action and could not possibly escalate the situation unnecessarily. Not surprisingly the guy's family says they will never call the police again for any reason.
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May 28, 2015 16:59
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Not only did she call the non-emergency line, she explicitly stated that she did not feel threatened. She went out of her way to prevent exactly what happened.  Yeah, but honestly it's not the police's fault. This man was very clearly told to drop the knife. He may be mentally unstable but it's pretty easy to understand don't hold a weapon around police. So really, who's to blame? The brave men who went into a dangerous situation or the man who caused it? 
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May 28, 2015 17:25
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flakeloaf posted:That actually happened. Not with a firearm (the example I'm thinking of involves handcuffs), but use of force reporting policies have led to lazy idiot morons not exercising their force options properly because they didn't feel like making words go on paper. The solution is to simplify the use of force report and require them for basically anything that has you touching someone else. Ours were little more than some checkboxes and a space for narrative text that should already be typed into the report anyway. ^X, ^V, I'm going back out now. Furthermore, in lifeguarding, performing a rescue is viewed as a failure of preventative lifeguarding, and we were always reminded afterwards that it's something we shouldn't have had to do. Is using force on a suspect treated the same way for you? Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 17:41 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 17:29
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Samurai Sanders posted:Furthermore, in lifeguarding, performing a rescue is viewed as a failure of preventative lifeguarding, and we were always reminded afterwards that it's something we shouldn't have had to do. Is using force on a suspect treated the same way for you?
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May 28, 2015 17:51
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Dead Reckoning posted:New York tried preventative policing, but people got really upset about it for some reason. edit: one example for me and my (affluent, white) neighborhood growing up was to volunteer to block of the streets so we could have block parties, and take the time to talk to everyone and not look like a threat. In a magical unicorn world I guess the police could do that for poor and non-white communities too. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 18:01 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 17:53
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Samurai Sanders posted:The closest I've ever been to a cop is a lifeguard (yeah, yeah...) and we'd have paperwork to fill out whenever touching a beach patron too. I can't imagine it's ever stopped someone from doing a rescue or giving first aid. Yeah, there's a widely-held perception that having to deploy or use a weapon represents a failure on the part of the member. De-escalation should be the goal of every intervention, and unless the subject's already assaultive when you get there then there's often a good way to bring a situation under control without having to hit or spray somebody, even if it means just establishing a cordon around the individual and waiting for him to get tired or bored. My career was pretty short - only five years - but that's long enough to have been in situations that make me wonder what I could've done to maybe stop this or that from going the way it did. But having bosses to come down and actually criticize someone for using a justifiable level of force when possibly, theoretically they might not've? That'd be irregular. UOF instructors and instructor-trainers will happily what-if with you until their batteries die; all supervisors care about is making sure your guy's case isn't going to get thrown out or lead to lawsuits because of something manifestly stupid. Samurai Sanders posted:I was more talking about what to do in a long term, large-scale sense so that you don't have to angrily confront people so often. Oh. That's 100% PR. You need to get the public to understand you are professional, transparent, and reponsible to some independent arbiter who is both qualified and willing to call you on your poo poo. It helps an awful lot if those things are at least partially true. It also helps if you've already built a culture of professional conduct within your agency so if one guy acts like a giant weenus he's going to stand out. Responsible, merit-based recruiting; training that emphasizes human rights, the interests of justice & the rule of law; and departmental policies that require everyone to stay within well-defined legal frameworks are all great ideas that don't mean poo poo if the person with absolute power over your agency is a part of it. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 18:08 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 17:57
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Dead Reckoning posted:New York tried preventative policing, but people got really upset about it for some reason. NYC's stop and frisk practices were racist and ineffective. They were not preventative policing in any capacity.
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May 28, 2015 20:59
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