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ultramiraculous posted:Yeah, people getting handwavey about consummation is an extremely modern idea, religiously and legally. Hell, there's some guys in the Catholic Church who have recently argued that having sex with a condom doesn't even count as consummation, and you can annul a marriage over it. Littlefinger talking to Roose about Sansa's virginity was probably more about her being able to be remarried uncontested than her purity.
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May 28, 2015 10:27
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Bobo the Red posted:By and large, unrelated people don't inherit titles through marriage. Cersei is not Lady of the Stormlands, or ruling Queen, and never could be; Littlefinger is not actually Lord of the Vale (doubly so, because Lysa wasn't either) and wouldn't be even if Robin died, which is probably why Robin is still alive. The Reach would go to some offshoot of the family; Olenna likely married into the family (or she would be officially in charge instead of just quietly ruling) There are instances throughout history of husbands usurping the wealth and power of their wives. If the leader of the Tyrells were to die on his way to Braavos and Loras were to be disinherited, Tommen could declare himself regent of the Reach until she was freed from her imprisonment. Much like Joanna of Castile, who was confined to a nunnery to prevent her meddling in politics, Margery would remain ruler of the Reach in name but it would be ruled de facto by Tommen and the Lannisters. Unfortunately, Tommen is a little lamb terrified of doing anything that might cause conflict. ultramiraculous posted:Yeah, people getting handwavey about consummation is an extremely modern idea, religiously and legally. Hell, there's some guys in the Catholic Church who have recently argued that having sex with a condom doesn't even count as consummation, and you can annul a marriage over it. Littlefinger talking to Roose about Sansa's virginity was probably more about her being able to be remarried uncontested than her purity. Speaking of Catholicism, this last episode was particularly thick with the parallels. The High Sparrow and Cersei had their conversation in the fantasy version of the Necropolis and their discussion about the Sept might as well have been about St. Peter's Basilica. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 16:42 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:35
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JT Jag posted:Tyrion and... The artist formerly known as Arya But as soon as I posted it I expected 'innocent' cracks about baby Sam or Reek's penis stub
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May 28, 2015 17:07
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Tommen is totes smaller than Arya we all know thats who you meant
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May 28, 2015 17:16
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Yesssss
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May 28, 2015 17:35
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ultramiraculous posted:Yeah, people getting handwavey about consummation is an extremely modern idea, religiously and legally. Hell, there's some guys in the Catholic Church who have recently argued that having sex with a condom doesn't even count as consummation, and you can annul a marriage over it. Littlefinger talking to Roose about Sansa's virginity was probably more about her being able to be remarried uncontested than her purity. And Roose turned out not to give a gently caress anyway. As he says to Littlefinger, her last name is more valuable than her chastity. And as for what the faith of the seven does or does not recognize as a valid marriage, well, they have their own gods up north  [an appeal to local sentiment I would certainly expect The Boltons to make as they look to be accepted by the North as its new rulers]
Mister Perky fucked around with this message at 18:39 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 18:37
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Mister Perky posted:...an appeal to local sentiment I would certainly expect The Boltons to make as they look to be accepted by the North as its new rulers... I was never clear on that with the Boltons...they're more or less also into the whole weirwood First Men religion, right? To the extent they believe anything, I mean. At first, I got the sense they were part of some crazy cultist sect with the way they revere flaying people. It's funny how badass we were supposed to think the Ironborn were with their Cthuloid Lovecraft religion and their intimidating slogan. Apparently they're the Scut Farkus of Westeros.
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May 28, 2015 19:00
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I do wonder what the smaller families of the North are doing. If the Boltons don't have the firm backing of the Lannisters anymore then what exactly gives them power? If the North is as crazy big as I remember then they must surely be spread pretty thin.
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May 28, 2015 19:06
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It turns out that eschewing agriculture and trade (the iron price thing) while being a big fan of drowning means it's difficult to sustain a large enough population to have an impact on much of anything. Who could have known?
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May 28, 2015 19:06
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Orange Devil posted:It turns out that eschewing agriculture and trade (the iron price thing) while being a big fan of drowning means it's difficult to sustain a large enough population to have an impact on much of anything. Who could have known? Yeah there really just aren't many people in the North. When Robb called in every single one of the North's banners it got him an army of around 18,000 IIRC. Meanwhile when Cat kidnapped Tyrion, Tywin immediately whipped up a host of 60,000, and when Jamie got destroyed and lost half of that force, Tywin just shrugged and raised more. And then when he continued getting crushed by Robb, he sighed and raised more. There are a lot of people in the Seven Kingdoms, and most of them aren't in the North.
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May 28, 2015 19:20
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Dr. Faustus posted:As recently as the 90's I know someone in NC who had her marriage annulled for this very reason. Turns out the guy she married stopped having relations with her the day the ceremony was over. Isn't that how all marriages work?
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May 28, 2015 19:44
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Elephanthead posted:Isn't that how all marriages work? Now do one about your mother-in-law!
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May 28, 2015 19:46
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Vegetable posted:I do wonder what the smaller families of the North are doing. If the Boltons don't have the firm backing of the Lannisters anymore then what exactly gives them power? If the North is as crazy big as I remember then they must surely be spread pretty thin. It sounds like they are taxing houses within arms reach and nobody else gives a gently caress who's squatting in winterfell.
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May 28, 2015 19:52
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Vegetable posted:I do wonder what the smaller families of the North are doing. If the Boltons don't have the firm backing of the Lannisters anymore then what exactly gives them power? If the North is as crazy big as I remember then they must surely be spread pretty thin. You should pick that Telltale Game of Thrones game up, because that is precisely the setting for it and it's actually pretty good. 4th ep is out this week. I'd say to just watch in on youtube and you could pick up the story but despite people bitching about the helix structure Telltale uses, every single streamer does so many dumb things I couldn't do that. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 20:11 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 20:08
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Orange Devil posted:It turns out that eschewing agriculture and trade (the iron price thing) while being a big fan of drowning means it's difficult to sustain a large enough population to have an impact on much of anything. Who could have known? That means all adherents to the drowned god are technically brain damaged...
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May 28, 2015 20:09
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Sydin posted:Yeah there really just aren't many people in the North. When Robb called in every single one of the North's banners it got him an army of around 18,000 IIRC. Meanwhile when Cat kidnapped Tyrion, Tywin immediately whipped up a host of 60,000, and when Jamie got destroyed and lost half of that force, Tywin just shrugged and raised more. And then when he continued getting crushed by Robb, he sighed and raised more. Also, the Boltons' men didn't die in the Red Wedding as the others did. In the books it's made clear they also sneakily avoided the bulk of the fighting once their betrayal was set up and made deals with Tywin not to attack. The Boltons also captured many hostages from noble families during the Red Wedding.
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May 28, 2015 20:20
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tooterfish posted:Even if you survive the induction by drowning, you probably get hypoxia related injuries. Beric loses some memories each time he dies, I think the brain damage isn't solely related to the resurrections of the Drowned faith.
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May 28, 2015 20:21
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Android Blues posted:Now do one about your mother-in-law! Sansa's mother in law is so fat, How fat is she, Let's just say she survived the moon door. 
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May 28, 2015 20:23
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Also, some people didn't understand that Theon betrayed Sansa almost immediately in the latest episode, with the Broken Tower candle and all. I don't know how you miss something like that.
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May 28, 2015 20:24
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Apoplexy posted:Also, some people didn't understand that Theon betrayed Sansa almost immediately in the latest episode, with the Broken Tower candle and all. I don't know how you miss something like that. I heard the word 'tower' and saw some steps. I figured Ramsay was just ahead of the curve or that Reek's subplot was going to actually go somewhere until someone said it was the wrong one.
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May 28, 2015 20:39
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Was it? I thought it was just a poorly-done switcharoo, with Theon going to the Broken Tower after telling Ramsay. I wasn't paying much attention to the specifics of which tower is which in Winterfell, however.
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May 28, 2015 20:43
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Scratch that. I literally just now got to the scene on my re-watching of the episode without Ambien killing my memory-making ability. Poor old Frey woman.
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May 28, 2015 20:46
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ultramiraculous posted:And she specifically told a story about banging her way into the Tyrell marriage. I can't believe I forgot that story. Olenna rules. Tyrells for the Iron Throne, damnit QuoProQuid posted:There are instances throughout history of husbands usurping the wealth and power of their wives. If the leader of the Tyrells were to die on his way to Braavos and Loras were to be disinherited, Tommen could declare himself regent of the Reach until she was freed from her imprisonment. Much like Joanna of Castile, who was confined to a nunnery to prevent her meddling in politics, Margery would remain ruler of the Reach in name but it would be ruled de facto by Tommen and the Lannisters. Well, sure, Tommen could do something like that, but he'd be quite clearly doing something incorrect and which would likely raise a number of concerns from the other kingdoms (probably the only reason Littlefinger is getting away with it is because the whole country is in shambles). And if that's what he wanted to do, he doesn't even need Loras in a cell or to be married to Margaery; he's the king, he can just cast the family down. RBA Starblade posted:I heard the word 'tower' and saw some steps. I figured Ramsay was just ahead of the curve or that Reek's subplot was going to actually go somewhere until someone said it was the wrong one. It was shot to mislead the viewer into thinking that's where he was going. But he arrives in a well maintained room, and Ramsay is not expecting him, so it's a weird leap to think Ramsay is one step ahead. Reek was specifically broken by creating false hope of escape along with the torture (which can also mean that, in his own way, he thinks he's helping Sansa). If Reek had gone to the tower, Ramsay would probably have to start all over. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 21:16 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 21:10
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Bobo the Red posted:It was shot to mislead the viewer into thinking that's where he was going. But he arrives in a well maintained room, and Ramsay is not expecting him, so it's a weird leap to think Ramsay is one step ahead. Reek was specifically broken by creating false hope of escape along with the torture. If Reek had gone to the tower, Ramsay would probably have to start all over. I mean I thought that Reek nutted up, but Ramsay either knew in advance from some idle flayings, just happened to set up shop there, or that he'd get caught anyway, instead of him just going right to Ramsay to tattle.
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May 28, 2015 21:16
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RBA Starblade posted:I mean I thought that Reek nutted up, but Ramsay either knew in advance from some idle flayings, just happened to set up shop there, or that he'd get caught anyway, instead of him just going right to Ramsay to tattle. The scene was definitely shot to make you think he was going to the tower. It was supposed to be a surprise when he opened the door and Ramsay was there. It's somewhat unclear if Ramsay was in the broken tower because he knew all along, or if they just tried to make people confused because all towers look alike #architecturacism
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May 28, 2015 21:37
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RBA Starblade posted:I mean I thought that Reek nutted up, but Ramsay either knew in advance from some idle flayings, just happened to set up shop there, or that he'd get caught anyway, instead of him just going right to Ramsay to tattle. That is exactly what I thought too, that somehow Ramsay knew all along. After people explained it it seemed obvious, but I didn't catch it during the episode itself that he just went right to Ramsay.
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May 28, 2015 21:50
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precision posted:The scene was definitely shot to make you think he was going to the tower. It was supposed to be a surprise when he opened the door and Ramsay was there. It's somewhat unclear if Ramsay was in the broken tower because he knew all along, or if they just tried to make people confused because all towers look alike #architecturacism But how could he know? The lady we saw flayed was still bleeding when Sansa saw her, and it's freezing outside. Ramsay is also clearly in a comfortable, unbroken space with windows when Reek finds him, and if Ramsay caught Reek trying to escape (as opposed to reek coming to him), he'd have to torture Reek again The shot of Reek walking accross the courtyard even looks like its shot from inside the broken tower (around 2:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yaa99OKkZCg
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May 28, 2015 21:51
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Bobo the Red posted:But how could he know? The lady we saw flayed was still bleeding when Sansa saw her, and it's freezing outside. I mean, the directors were going for that trick though, it shouldn't be surprising it worked on a few people.
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May 28, 2015 21:53
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RIP flayed lady trying to help Sansa. Hurry up and Save Winterfell Mannis! Boltons must pay for their crimes!
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May 28, 2015 21:56
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Scenty posted:I mean, the directors were going for that trick though, it shouldn't be surprising it worked on a few people. For sure. Not unreasonable to buy the misdirect at all. Just pointing out why I think it is a misdirect. That window is Bran's window, right? Manic Mailman posted:RIP flayed lady trying to help Sansa. 'Save' having a lot of meanings, I suppose. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 22:06 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 22:03
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I'm still ~12 pages behind this thread but it is interesting to see how much of the off-the-rails made up stuff HBO is doing (badly) gets attributed to Martin. You guys realize the show stopped following ques from the book quite a few episodes ago right? The most influence the books have at this point is a couple lines of dialogue here and there. Just interesting how much poo poo gets flung at GRRM and how lovely his writing is but *for some reason* the season that is doing its own thing seems to be the most hated one. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 22:08
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I think that's because THIS IS THE THREAD FOR NON-READERS. They/we would have no idea what can be attributed to Martin.
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May 28, 2015 22:12
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Apoplexy posted:I think that's because THIS IS THE THREAD FOR NON-READERS. They/we would have no idea what can be attributed to Martin. So why are they bitching about what Martin is doing at all then, as opposed to criticizing HBO? It's just amazing how people jump on the hate bandwagon without knowing anything, is all. Just pointing out that maybe the HBO writers aren't as good as an actual famous author. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:16 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 22:14
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What are you even referring to? Are you actually complaining about a post 12 pages ago and not even quoting it?
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May 28, 2015 22:15
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Fellatio del Toro posted:What are you even referring to? Are you actually complaining about a post 12 pages ago and not even quoting it? It was quite a few of them and I'm not trying to call someone out from 12 pages ago but it was mostly the 'Olenna v High Sparrow scene was stupid, what was Martin thinking?' post
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May 28, 2015 22:17
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Bobo the Red posted:But how could he know? The lady we saw flayed was still bleeding when Sansa saw her, and it's freezing outside. I thought the same as the other guys. It didn't make a lot of sense but I just figured it was the show being dumb.
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May 28, 2015 22:58
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Moridin920 posted:It was quite a few of them and I'm not trying to call someone out from 12 pages ago but it was mostly the 'Olenna v High Sparrow scene was stupid, what was Martin thinking?' post That's coo' that's coo'
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May 29, 2015 00:56
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Has anybody mentioned that the High Sparrow actor looks EXACTLY like Pope Francis? Is that intentional?
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May 29, 2015 01:39
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Xealot posted:It's funny how badass we were supposed to think the Ironborn were with their Cthuloid Lovecraft religion and their intimidating slogan. Apparently they're the Scut Farkus of Westeros. 
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May 29, 2015 02:01
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Xealot posted:I was never clear on that with the Boltons...they're more or less also into the whole weirwood First Men religion, right? To the extent they believe anything, I mean. At first, I got the sense they were part of some crazy cultist sect with the way they revere flaying people. the Ramsay/Sansa wedding was conducted in front of Winterfell's big Weirwood Tree. So yes, they are Old Gods worshippers like virtually all the north (there are a couple named exceptions but the show hasn't really included them yet; extras wearing the right sigils have shown up briefly in certain scenes). Craster also worshipped the old gods (at least that's what he believed he was doing). Craster and The Boltons are a couple of hints that The Old Gods/The Weirwood Faith is not necessarily very nice, certainly not as nice as our first impression of the honorable good guy House Stark leads us to presume it is. We'll probably get more hints in future episodes but that's way further into book/spoiler territory than I want to go in this thread. It's unclear whether their is a religion-based pretext for the Bolton tradition of flaying or if it's just something they started doing to intimidate would be foes (in such a violence-friendly world as this, you'd have to really go beyond the pale in order to scare people). They're not necessarily the only ones that do it -- everyone else seems at least familiar with what the practice is when discussing them -- but no one else celebrates its use and lets their freak flag fly quite like the Boltons do. It's their banner, after all, which implies it's as important to them as dragons are to Dany and her ancestors. But I mean, if you think about it, Roose Bolton personally executed Robb Stark (and technically did so face to face) after passing sentence on him (in a fashion) by selling him out all through season 3. Just like Ned at the beginning with that deserter Furthermore, his story to Ramsay about How I Met Your Mother. The couple got married without their lord's (i.e. his) permission, so he personally punished them by hanging the groom and raping the bride. D.I.Y. Notherner once again. Ned and Roose are dramatic foils, somewhat, even though they never share a scene. At the risk of bringing irritating D&D alignment chat into this thread, Ned is a classic "lawful good" type (albeit one who clearly leans good instead of lawful when push comes to shove) and Roose is a clear "lawful evil", a stickler for traditions and order but who interprets them in the most horrible way possible. But they would both see themselves as loyal adherents -- even champions -- of traditional northern cultural and religions norms. Even Ramsay, when showing Sansa what's left of the old lady, praises the old lady posthumously for her display of classic Northern Toughness as he flayed her.
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May 29, 2015 02:15
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