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Dead Reckoning posted:New York tried preventative policing, but people got really upset about it for some reason. That's not preventative policing. Preventative policing is police establishing relationships with the people in their community so that community members feel safe asking the police for help. I just watched an interesting documentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crips_and_Bloods:_Made_in_America), and something interesting to me was that a large number of the gang members interviewed stated that a primary motivation for joining a gang was because they couldn't trust police to protect them, and often felt they needed protection from the police. If police are on a first-name basis with the people in their neighborhoods, and those officers seem like friends you could go to with your problems, people are less likely to be confrontational with police. A police officer should be a guy who you can literally wake up at 2am and he'll be happy to crawl out of bed and check around because you heard some banging around in the alley. Instead they act like they're an army fighting some sort of insurgent force. Stop-and-frisk assumes that members of the community are all potential criminals, rather than friends and neighbors under the officer's care.
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May 28, 2015 21:17
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http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article22515459.html Just some random cop getting a DUI. No big story, but I laughed at this: quote:Duque’s arrest came as the department was more than halfway of reaching then-Police Chief Jeff Halstead’s goal of going 1,000 days without a DWI arrest of an officer. The department had celebrated reaching Halstead’s previous goal of one year that June.
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May 28, 2015 21:21
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DARPA posted:http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article22515459.html Well, alcoholism is rampant in America. It's really not shocking that cops wouldn't be exempt from it.
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May 28, 2015 22:06
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:That's not preventative policing. Preventative policing is police establishing relationships with the people in their community so that community members feel safe asking the police for help. I just watched an interesting documentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crips_and_Bloods:_Made_in_America), and something interesting to me was that a large number of the gang members interviewed stated that a primary motivation for joining a gang was because they couldn't trust police to protect them, and often felt they needed protection from the police. There are lots of people actively crying out for the return of the Peelers in America (a goal that I think is wildly unrealistic given the current climate) but never once would I have imagined that the best advocates for that move would be the frigging Crips.
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May 28, 2015 23:22
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flakeloaf posted:There are lots of people actively crying out for the return of the Peelers in America (a goal that I think is wildly unrealistic given the current climate) but never once would I have imagined that the best advocates for that move would be the frigging Crips. At the same time, it's like seeing the KKK advocate for deregulation of school systems-you know exactly what their motivations are. When you're watching people lament harsh police enforcement and talking about how many people they've killed/shot at in the same breath, it kind of loses all meaning. I mean, I'm sure ol' Pablo was also very much against US interference in Colombia  E: VVVV Because Florida is a magical magical place with cops who are just as magical. Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 00:27 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 00:14
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Why would you bring Assault Rifles into a suicide situation in the first place?
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May 29, 2015 00:17
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Naturally Selected posted:At the same time, it's like seeing the KKK advocate for deregulation of school systems-you know exactly what their motivations are. When you're watching people lament harsh police enforcement and talking about how many people they've killed/shot at in the same breath, it kind of loses all meaning. I mean, I'm sure ol' Pablo was also very much against US interference in Colombia That's a lovely comparison, because the kkk are the cause and black gangs are the effect.
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May 29, 2015 01:44
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This is loving awful: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_attorney.html Basically Orange County DA and Sheriff were colluding to procure snitches, place them near suspects, and instructed them to get confessions from people who lawyered up. Remember that snitches lie at a huge rate (because they have a reason to). They then hid this from the defense and the court. Given the length of time and persons involved, it almost certainly ruined more lives than police shootings in Orange County. Bet no one gets disbarred for it though.
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May 29, 2015 02:00
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nm posted:This is loving awful: Here's a choice quote from that article that highlights the systemic nature of the illegal abuse by DAs & the Sheriff's department: quote:In an explosive moment following a hearing last year, Sanders revealed that the Orange County Sheriffs Department has maintained a massive, secret, 25-year-old computerized record-keeping system called TRED. These TRED documents were full of potentially exculpatory data, but the agency officials had systematically refused to turn any of them over, or even acknowledge their very existence, to defense counsel. So not only did they lie and hide a database of exculpatory evidence, but they let their snitches off of major crimes including murders to prevent defense attorneys from knowing about their corruption and misconduct. Sadly, I would be shocked if a single person in law enforcement saw a jail cell over this.
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May 29, 2015 02:06
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Trabisnikof posted:Here's a choice quote from that article that highlights the systemic nature of the illegal abuse by DAs & the Sheriff's department: Ain't like it's the first time that this has happened. . How did it get revealed?
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May 29, 2015 02:15
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:When not to call the police. Same story http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/thats-what-we-do-florida-cops-shoot-and-kill-suicidal-man-after-girlfriend-phones-for-help/ quote:‘That’s what we do': Florida cops shoot and kill suicidal man after girlfriend phones for help
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May 29, 2015 02:25
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PostNouveau posted:Cop needs a better attorney, stat I feel like "who's to say he wasn't dressed as a reindeer and had taken the reindeer suit off" should be the stock answer to soooo many more questions.
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May 29, 2015 02:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ain't like it's the first time that this has happened. . How did it get revealed? Public defender went through 60,000 pages of case files. Want police accountability? Funding your public defenders is a great start.
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May 29, 2015 02:50
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Baltimore Gets Bloodier As Arrests Drop Post-Freddie Gray
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May 29, 2015 03:12
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Anora posted:Why would you bring Assault Rifles into a suicide situation in the first place? 
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May 29, 2015 03:55
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nm posted:Public defender went through 60,000 pages of case files. Want police accountability? Funding your public defenders is a great start. Quotin' myself: https://medium.com/@sfdefender/behind-courtroom-doors-7a581a1b02c2
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May 29, 2015 04:34
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Toshimo posted:Well, alcoholism is rampant in America. It's really not shocking that cops wouldn't be exempt from it. Does your office need to have a stated goal of not getting DUIs? Because mine sure doesn't. And we certainly didn't celebrate a year of no one being charged with one either. And that ignores the perverse incentive of the chief setting a department wide goal of no DUIs which encourages looking the other way when one officer catches another as it would spoil the streak.
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May 29, 2015 04:48
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DARPA posted:Does your office need to have a stated goal of not getting DUIs? Yeah, probably.
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May 29, 2015 04:57
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DARPA posted:Does your office need to have a stated goal of not getting DUIs? Because mine sure doesn't. And we certainly didn't celebrate a year of no one being charged with one either. And that ignores the perverse incentive of the chief setting a department wide goal of no DUIs which encourages looking the other way when one officer catches another as it would spoil the streak. I'm pretty sure the rate of alcoholism in law enforcement is noticeably higher than the general population. http://jghcs.info/index.php/l/article/download/150/147 quote:In addition it is an acceptable form of coping for officers. You can question the veracity of the source all you want, that's the first thing I found so I have no idea how biased it is, if at all.
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May 29, 2015 07:16
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm pretty sure the rate of alcoholism in law enforcement is noticeably higher than the general population. It is the hypocrisy. I used to drink with a cop and his wife at my local bar. I walked, they drove 15 miles. We did this 7 days a week. They never ever ever accepted my offer to pay for a cab or for them to crash at my place. He was always really loving drunk when they left, probably 3 times the legal limit, but he just joked that no one would bother him because he was a cop. I liked them as people, but that attitude and behavior finally made me stop hanging out with them. Maybe he was good cop, I don't know, but he was loving determined to drive home drunk every goddamn day. Somehow because he was a cop, it was ok. He was always really happy that I walked, then he would turn around and drive nightly. I never loving understood it.
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May 29, 2015 09:52
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Completely calculated move on the part of the police department.
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May 29, 2015 10:33
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm pretty sure the rate of alcoholism in law enforcement is noticeably higher than the general population. It is absolutely true. Alcoholism, drug abuse (steroids and amphetamines mainly), divorce, family violence, suicide, sudden inexplicable violence which goes the way you might expect when you get a guy amped up and give him automatic weapons; all of those are all fruit of the PTSD tree and you will not find a police agency on the continent that doesn't have at least one of these things.
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May 29, 2015 13:31
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flakeloaf posted:It is absolutely true. Alcoholism, drug abuse (steroids and amphetamines mainly), divorce, family violence, suicide, sudden inexplicable violence which goes the way you might expect when you get a guy amped up and give him automatic weapons; all of those are all fruit of the PTSD tree and you will not find a police agency on the continent that doesn't have at least one of these things. I firmly believe that isn't just the stress of the job so much as it is the attitude that has been developed that policing is so drat dangerous. Yes, it can be dangerous, but when you treat every call as life or death for yourself and your partners, the stress is going to loving kill you. That is what they have done, and it is one of the primary reasons they all react so badly to everyday encounters. A person can't survive when they are walking around stressed out like that all of the time, but somehow our police force has convinced itself that life and death is happening whenever they encounter any citizen. Add in systemic racism and you have what we see today.
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May 29, 2015 13:43
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Pohl posted:I firmly believe that isn't just the stress of the job so much as it is the attitude that has been developed that policing is so drat dangerous. Yes, it can be dangerous, but when you treat every call as life or death for yourself and your partners, the stress is going to loving kill you. That is what they have done, and it is one of the primary reasons they all react so badly to everyday encounters. A person can't survive when they are walking around stressed out like that all of the time, but somehow our police force has convinced itself that life and death is happening whenever they encounter any citizen. Failing to find any massive studies with a quick google search (I suck at finding poo poo like that, and most of what I found have sample sizes of sub-1000), but maybe someone with better access/skills can find something-but I can just about guarantee that if you look at other emergency response professions you'll find the same increased prevalence of alcohol/drug abuse, violence, divorce, etc. PTSD and related poo poo kind of comes with the territory of working in emergency services.
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May 29, 2015 16:04
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Naturally Selected posted:Failing to find any massive studies with a quick google search (I suck at finding poo poo like that, and most of what I found have sample sizes of sub-1000), but maybe someone with better access/skills can find something-but I can just about guarantee that if you look at other emergency response professions you'll find the same increased prevalence of alcohol/drug abuse, violence, divorce, etc. PTSD and related poo poo kind of comes with the territory of working in emergency services. How much of that is from being up all night, stuck in a truck with someone who isn't your spouse though? I think Pohl's bang on the money: A lot of the awareness training is intended to heighten your sense of danger so you can spot threat cues and protect yourself proactively before you need to resort to weapons. That's fine when you go from a brightly-lit street corner to a shady apartment or you chase a dude into a parking garage, but you can't stay in that amped state all shift long for thirty years and not come out of it without some kind of party in your head. You hear of soldiers who come home after only six months in a literal warzone and they're permanently broken because they get back to Nowhere, Indiana and they're still checking rooftops for snipers and visually searching roadside objects for explosives. Cop stress is obviously much lower than soldier stress but it's over a much longer period of time and that's every bit as likely to gently caress you up. The UOF instructor rhetoric doesn't help that attitude any: See one think two, hands kill, there's never no threat because it's either known or unknown, every call's a gun call, you're going home tonight, everything's a weapon,  , and that's before you get into that maladaptive wolf-sheepdog bullshit. A young guy could be forgiven for approaching every shift change like it's Thunderdome.Whatever you do for a living, if you're sleep-deprived, charged with responsibility over life and death and you spend every moment "knowing" fifty ninjas are going to drop from the sky and kill everything and it'll all be your fault because you didn't remember your WEALTH mnemonic, your brain is going to break and life for the people who have to put up with you will suck. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 16:59 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 16:56
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Not a huge shock here but cops ignore judges order and send mentally ill man on a one way bus trip to Florida. http://www.kentucky.com/2015/05/29/3874508_ignoring-court-order-police-in.html?rh=1 A friend of mine that is a lawyer has already offered to represent him free of charge on any all criminal charges he's now facing.
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May 29, 2015 17:06
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nm posted:This is loving awful: Anora posted:Why would you bring Assault Rifles into a suicide situation in the first place?
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May 29, 2015 17:10
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Dead Reckoning posted:Jesus, yeah, that's pretty much the worst. Did you read the article, she did not call 911. She called the local police non-emergency number, to get them to come have him committed, which has apparently happened 3 times before.
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May 29, 2015 17:14
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Even if he was, you don't bring an assault rifle for that situation. Tasers or tear gas or Pepper balls or Batons or beanbags or just about any other non-lethal weapon that can subue a person. Or even better, attempt to speak with the man, rather than play Call of Duty indoors with live ammo.
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May 29, 2015 17:32
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Dead Reckoning posted:"Yes, hello, 9-1-1? I'd like to report a man with a knife threatening to hurt himself. No, I don't think he's a danger to anyone else, but I'd like you to come take him out of our home and have him involuntarily committed." Even if you make the radical assumption that the caller has enough insight into the suicidal person's state of mind to make that call, it's still a dangerous situation. It's not really a radical assumption when you realize that she has dealt with this situation several times already and purposefully called the non-emergency line instead of 911 in an attempt to avoid exactly what ended up happening. Yes, responding to a suicidal person holding a knife is a dangerous situation. Pretty much any domestic disturbance call is a potentially dangerous situation. Does that mean we are to accept cops showing up in "give me a reason" mode carrying combat rifles to every potentially dangerous call? If that's the case I don't blame that family (or anyone really) for never wanting to deal with the police ever again in any circumstance.
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May 29, 2015 17:51
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 But every call is a "potentially dangerous call". If it weren't, they wouldn't need the police. Every traffic stop is potentially dangerous too; does that mean your passenger needs to pop the M4 out the window and keep it trained on the driver the whole time?They do, of course, but that's idiotic too. Beanbags and pepper spray don't work against mentally ill subjects often enough to make trying them a good idea. That's what tasers, batons (for disarming and joint locking, not subduing) and the psycho bar is for. If I can literally make you drop whatever's in your hand with a surprise whack from a styrofoam practice baton - and I can - you wouldn't exactly have to swing for the fences with a real one to get your way. Long rifles in an urban environment for one guy with a knife when two dudes, one to do the talking and one to undo the snaps on his pistol holster, do the job* just as well. (*Subject to the usual "I wasn't there, not my circus not my monkey" disclaimers) flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 18:03 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 18:00
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Talmonis posted:Even if he was, you don't bring an assault rifle for that situation. Tasers or tear gas or Pepper balls or Batons or beanbags or just about any other non-lethal weapon that can subue a person. Or even better, attempt to speak with the man, rather than play Call of Duty indoors with live ammo. I think we're way too obsessed with the optics of a situation. He wouldn't be any less dead if they used a handgun. With the exception of the possible negative reaction of seeing the guns to a person undergoing a mental health crisis, I just don't care if they respond with rifles. Even a loving tank would be fine if once they actually got there they used proper de-escilation techniques and treated killing a human being as the worst possible outcome of any interaction. The problem with focusing the attention on the tools is that it is extremely easy to fix compared to changing culture. Cops could run around with flower painted Geo Metro convertables with only a handgun, or even no gun, playing "come on get happy" instead of a stiren and none of that would matter if the culture stays the same. They can still shoot people with handguns, beat them, choke them, racially profile, etc. Prosecutorial misconduct and the court's system's blind eye won't be dealt with. It is, however, an easier fix for politicians. Focusing on optics gives them a way to get an easy not fix the core issues. distraction. I don't even buy that these weapons have increased police brutality. Cops were far worse in the 70s. In the 70s in Balitmore, they wouldn't have bothered to try to cover up Freddie Gray. What has happened is that because of video and who it is happening to, it has become a lot harder for middle class abd rich white people to ignore. Obsessing about tanks, DUIs, and AR-15s means you miss the decades long conspiracy between prosecutors and cops to create false testimony and the lie about it. How does that have fewer people up in arms than "some cop got drunk, drove, and was arrested?" Edit: do cops get CSPBA or just regular non-stab resistant body armor?
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May 29, 2015 18:02
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GreyPowerVan posted:Did you read the article, she did not call 911. She called the local police non-emergency number, to get them to come have him committed, which has apparently happened 3 times before. It's strange that they didn't have some kind of mental health care worker with them. Wouldn't you need some kind of expert there to talk the guy down enough to be take into custody and transported? It seems like the police should never have been there without help from an expert.
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May 29, 2015 18:17
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:It's strange that they didn't have some kind of mental health care worker with them. Wouldn't you need some kind of expert there to talk the guy down enough to be take into custody and transported? It seems like the police should never have been there without help from an expert. Its almost as if the police treat the mentally ill like criminals....
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May 29, 2015 18:18
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:It's strange that they didn't have some kind of mental health care worker with them. Wouldn't you need some kind of expert there to talk the guy down enough to be take into custody and transported? It seems like the police should never have been there without help from an expert. It isn't strange in the US where most police departments don't caee about mental health at all. LAPD actually has a program where DBH social workers ride along with certain cops. It has been extremely successful in its limited deployment (only a few cops in a few areas). It should be used everywhere at a much higher rate. There is a funding issue as county level Behavioral Health is massively underfunded, so it isn't like they have staff to spare.
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May 29, 2015 18:39
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nm posted:I think we're way too obsessed with the optics of a situation. He wouldn't be any less dead if they used a handgun. With the exception of the possible negative reaction of seeing the guns to a person undergoing a mental health crisis, I just don't care if they respond with rifles. Even a loving tank would be fine if once they actually got there they used proper de-escilation techniques and treated killing a human being as the worst possible outcome of any interaction. The fact that they were carrying rifles isn't about effectiveness of the lethal weapon over a handgun, it's about the intent. You don't bring an assault rifle to any place that you don't intend to shoot up. It's an abnormal thing for them to be carrying into what should be a routine situation that their sidearms and other non-letal deterrants would be perfectly capable of handling. When did it go from SWAT being the ones with assault rifles and SMG's to patrolmen? That seems pretty insane. We're not missing that part though. We know it happens and want something done about it just as much as you do. But the more obvious issues of military style armament and tactics, are something we can possibly put adequate pressure on our congressmen to change. The corruption will take one hell of a lot more to root out.
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May 29, 2015 18:42
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:It's strange that they didn't have some kind of mental health care worker with them. Wouldn't you need some kind of expert there to talk the guy down enough to be take into custody and transported? It seems like the police should never have been there without help from an expert. My, that sounds lavish. That's money that could be spent on SWAT.
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May 29, 2015 18:43
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nm posted:I think we're way too obsessed with the optics of a situation. He wouldn't be any less dead if they used a handgun. With the exception of the possible negative reaction of seeing the guns to a person undergoing a mental health crisis, I just don't care if they respond with rifles. Even a loving tank would be fine if once they actually got there they used proper de-escilation techniques and treated killing a human being as the worst possible outcome of any interaction. But.... but but military weapons  Nevermind the fact that an overwhelming majority of police shootings-and in fact most murders-happen with handguns, it's them evil self-shooting black MILITARY ASSAULT rifles that are the problem.It's basically an easy marker for people after every tragedy that happens. Sandy Hook/Aurora? Ignore the issues with this country's mental health system/lack of enforcement of federal firearms legislation, ban scary rifles. Cops shoot a mentally disturbed individual? ban scary rifles. Gun violence a problem in the US? Ignore systemic issues, ignore what kind of weapons actually get used, BAN SCARY RIFLES. There's a very specific pattern here: it's easy to make political clout from hand-wringing and ineffectual gestures like AWBs and gear restrictions for the police. It's much harder to propose doomed-to-fail, expensive as hell changes to fix what's actually broken.
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May 29, 2015 18:43
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fallin1 posted:Not a huge shock here but cops ignore judges order and send mentally ill man on a one way bus trip to Florida. condensed posted:Chandler questioned Horine's competence to enter a plea to misdemeanor charges of disorderly conduct and making verbal threats. She ordered an immediate mental-health examination and transport to Eastern State Hospital in Lexington for a more thorough psychiatric assessment. I hope your friend is able to help clear his name, and Horine is able to get what treatment he needs. 
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May 29, 2015 18:45
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nm posted:I think we're way too obsessed with the optics of a situation. He wouldn't be any less dead if they used a handgun. With the exception of the possible negative reaction of seeing the guns to a person undergoing a mental health crisis, I just don't care if they respond with rifles. Even a loving tank would be fine if once they actually got there they used proper de-escilation techniques and treated killing a human being as the worst possible outcome of any interaction. The issue I have with them packing AR-15s to a suicide crisis call has nothing to do with optics or the tactical minutiae of the weapon and everything to do with mentality and culture. You're right, he wouldn't be any less dead if they had used their service pistols instead of rifles, but what kind of mentality or culture makes you believe that anything beyond your service pistol as a last resort is necessary for a call like that? It's not a mentality that's going to even attempt de-escalation, that's for drat sure in this case at least. They told him to drop the knife, he didn't comply immediately, and they shot him instantly where he laid in the bed. No risks were going to be taken to save the man's life if it put the officers in any danger whatsoever. It doesn't matter that they were called specifically to save the man's life, the man had a weapon, therefore he is a threat, and the threat must be neutralized with overwhelming force. loving animal control departments willingly take more personal risk in dealing with bears and alligators to prevent killing them if it's not absolutely necessary.
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May 29, 2015 18:46
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