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supersnowman posted:Could you smartbomb them or is it too few ticks before they warp? Smartbombing interceptors is a pain unless the people are lazy/dumb because getting them warping off of a gate means you need to cover the 20km or whatever radius of the gate, and hitting them as they land requires you to know what direction they're coming from and is easily foiled by warping to a perch and/or d-scanning.
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May 29, 2015 00:41
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causticBeet posted:What's the point of a non cloaky nullified ship ? Like great I can't be bubbled but the sabre can just long point me anyways. The original "point" of interceptors having nullification was that they were supposed to ignore blocking bubble and bubble clusters around gates to allow them to actually intercept things and hold them down until the rest of the fleet caught up This was related to the warp speed/acceleration changes as well; smaller ships found it easier to catch big ships. Travel interceptors aren't really the problem except for people that just get mad that someone escapes their gate camps. The problem arises from the same place as a lot of other CCP problems - they didn't think all the way through what would happen when you put 50 of those ships in a fleet instead of 6 or 8 supporting a fleet of bigger ships. Now you have an entire fleet that can be set up to instawarp and ignore any meaningful blocking effort but which can't meaningfully engage anything other than single targets. I think a good initial step would be to forbid inertial stabilizers on interceptors and hard-cap align times at 2.1 seconds or above. I'm not a fan of the "low-slot interdiction module" idea because I feel like that penalizes some interceptors more than others. Another interesting idea would be to give Tech 1 BCs and BBs some sort of damage application role bonus against only interceptors.
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May 29, 2015 00:50
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They could always just make Command Ships change the properties of mods. Run an script into a Link and make it so that Heavy Interdictors can cancel out Nullification. But the downside being that the script roots you in place and you're required to be on grid within a 50km radius of the Hictor. The last time I made an attempt at playing didn't make me really satisfied. There was people flying around all over but they were all disposable poo poo that was hardly worth catching. Oh wow, I killed an Interceptor. It just took a Daredevil, a RSB alt, an Interdictor and a scout to loving do it. I've always maintained that the main class of ship for PvP should be Cruisers, the main class of ship seems to now be Frigates and Destroyers and it's loving dumb. Flying expensive Cruisers like HAC/Recons is hardly worth it since you can barely target poo poo in time.
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May 29, 2015 01:43
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YouTuber posted:They could always just make Command Ships change the properties of mods. Run an script into a Link and make it so that Heavy Interdictors can cancel out Nullification. But the downside being that the script roots you in place and you're required to be on grid within a 50km radius of the Hictor. This sounds like a pain in the butt to code, so this would never happen even if it was a good idea
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May 29, 2015 01:50
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gwrtheyrn posted:Smartbombing interceptors is a pain unless the people are lazy/dumb because getting them warping off of a gate means you need to cover the 20km or whatever radius of the gate, and hitting them as they land requires you to know what direction they're coming from and is easily foiled by warping to a perch and/or d-scanning. Fcon nailed sa matra once as he landed on a gate with smartbombing rokhs and since then he been perching.
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May 29, 2015 01:57
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Drythe posted:Join Miniluv blow up I'm bad at video games and a certified garbage human but today Miniluv put me in some t1 catalysts and I helped blow up an Orca and two Charons. Making people sad is fun and easy! 
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May 29, 2015 02:10
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YouTuber posted:They could always just make Command Ships change the properties of mods. Run an script into a Link and make it so that Heavy Interdictors can cancel out Nullification. ...or just make Heavy Interdictors immune to nullifiers- instantly that whole class of ships is useful again (outside of tackling supers).
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May 29, 2015 02:32
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Free BobFromMarketing
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May 29, 2015 03:19
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Xolve posted:...or just make Heavy Interdictors immune to nullifiers- instantly that whole class of ships is useful again (outside of tackling supers). I've been saying that since Fozzieceptors were inflicted upon us. Give hictors a script that makes their bubble kill interdiction nullification so those loving things actually have to engage. Better yet, also make the hictor bubble decloak poo poo.
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May 29, 2015 03:26
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CashEnsign posted:Free BobFromMarketing from this mortal coil
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May 29, 2015 03:32
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Hexel posted:Fcon nailed sa matra once as he landed on a gate with smartbombing rokhs and since then he been perching. Pretty sure you only get one or two ticks to kill a smartbombing interceptor, because of session change invulnerability and how fast it warps. If he just made a bookmark inside each gate he wouldn't have to perch.
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May 29, 2015 04:05
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:from this mortal coil
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May 29, 2015 04:50
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Kiryen posted:
This is literally the answer. You lose travel interceptors, but honestly who cares? pugnax posted:Scouting. If you take enough interceptors you can kill anything by itself that uses guns - ceptors are fast and small, and if it turns out your prey is too tanky you can just hoof it away because you go like 6k/s overheated. I think the biggest thing I've ever engaged was a myrm with 8~ ceptors, and I think we were breaking him (he might have been bait tanking) but either way when his mates jumped in we just ran away and were never in any danger at all. Ceptors are stupid at the moment and I don't even like flying them anymore because as soon as people report a ceptor fleet everyone docks up.
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May 29, 2015 05:26
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:from this mortal coil Where is the goon love for our fallen brother? Banned from Zuluchat, it was too soon BFM, too soon.
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May 29, 2015 05:29
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abigserve posted:This is literally the answer. You lose travel interceptors, but honestly who cares? I'd be 100% down if a nerf to ceptors meant more interesting baddies in Dek but I'm pretty sure half the people in MoA would gently caress off if they couldn't kill ratters in ceptors.
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May 29, 2015 05:38
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CashEnsign posted:Where is the goon love for our fallen brother? Banned from Zuluchat, it was too soon BFM, too soon. It's pretty easy to get blacklisted from Goons TBH. But banned from Zulu? You have to do something impressively lame to pull that off.
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May 29, 2015 06:24
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Maybe that new Yacht signals the end of the taxiceptor, because it's a taxiceptor that can't fight.
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May 29, 2015 06:32
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causticBeet posted:I'd be 100% down if a nerf to ceptors meant more interesting baddies in Dek but I'm pretty sure half the people in MoA would gently caress off if they couldn't kill ratters in ceptors. Last week they came with a Svipul + frigate fleet and when the 12 or so of them ended up stuck in 2O9 (or was it NC-?)they decided to try and hide in a C5 that popped up, so Theta went and closed the hole behind them. An hour and change later, most of their fleet returns... but in all interceptors (and the 1 stealth bomber that cyno'd the bomber gang onto the "nah guys I can solo interceptors" Golem who promptly died). That fleet roamed about for a bit because at the first sign of trouble they bug out, and the numbers needed to catch 1 or 2 at a time on a gate and not be an easy target gets tiring quick in terms of, "There are 6 of us here with a gimmick sebo Keres who is made of paper, and for 15 minutes of camping, we might get 1 ship, and not stop the rest from being able to harass our space? And we can't even use JBs again and again to whittle them down anymore?"
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May 29, 2015 06:46
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ullerrm posted:It's pretty easy to get blacklisted from Goons TBH. But banned from Zulu? You have to do something impressively lame to pull that off. BFM linked goons to pedo pictures, it's a bit beyond lame.
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May 29, 2015 07:40
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ullerrm posted:It's pretty easy to get blacklisted from Goons TBH. But banned from Zulu? You have to do something impressively lame to pull that off. How does that even happen? Getting banned from Zulu is harder than getting a celebrity deported from America.
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May 29, 2015 08:18
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MoA are only doing risk free pvp anyway. Seriously, I once managed to drive them off in an afktar by blapping one of ten Interceptors with light drones when I was already half dead.
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May 29, 2015 08:21
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Xolve posted:How does that even happen? Getting banned from Zulu is harder than getting a celebrity deported from America. Troll the Zulu sisterhood of transgender women in poor taste.
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May 29, 2015 08:56
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causticBeet posted:How do you fix interceptors without either making them worthless or completely remodeling the games netcode? Like ideally you would do away with the 1 second tick and all the bullshit that comes with it but I think that's pretty unlikely at this point in the games life cycle. they were popular ships before the nullification. Like, they still warp fast as gently caress and have a low sig radius and get bonus to tackle range. They'll just function as a cheaper garmur/dramiel
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May 29, 2015 09:05
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make them warp in  or just -100)or just make hictor bubbles stop interceptors so they are useful, jesus loving christ this needs to happen because it makes sense
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May 29, 2015 09:10
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e; see below
DiggityDoink fucked around with this message at 09:14 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 09:11
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e: saw the context
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May 29, 2015 09:11
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pugnax posted:Scouting. Yes? For one, even if you want to catch an interceptor you have to bring a ship specifically for catching interceptors. So if you're doing a gatecamp you have to bring a dictor and interceptor. And that only lets you catch the dumb ones. Travel fit interceptors present problems as well. It's an exercise in futility to stop someone from running missions out of a 0.0 station for one, as they can either pickup the missions with an intie or use a nullified tengu and refit at a safe with a depot. Also if an intie is scouting your fleet there is no counter to it. Absolute safety is anathema to eve and that's what interceptors provide. On a larger scale, they make holding chokepoints to regions pointless. Prior to nullification, defense fleets could camp the entrances to their space and if hostiles wanted to look for ratters to kill, they had to roll through with at least enough dudes to brawl 3-4 cruisers sitting on a gate. Now you can just go right past them AND due to the jump fatigue changes you can't even reposition your camp to take another try at a gaggle of inties. Instead, defense fleets have to sit on a titan or wait for someone to get tackled then gate to go save them. Defense gangs have completely lost any initiative to force fights on their terms and just get jerked around by interceptors. Look at poitot dot. Four interceptors is enough to kill an ishtar, and there is no way to catch him. The most a defense gang can do is cyno in and force him off field, but they can't actually catch him unless he fucks up. Like how do you not realize that looking for ganks/defense fleets are the only thing to do for pvp in deklein. And you're loving stupid as poo poo if you think its ONLY 3-4 interceptors. There are large enough interceptor gangs to kill a ratting carrier. And its not so easy as hurr hurr they're easy to kill. Its that the only thing a defense gang can do is save the ratting carrier. As for fixing it, you could do something similar to the t3 destroyers modes, such as a normal mode that isn't nullified, and a nullified mode that lowers its agility so that it takes 3s~ to warp. You could also make nullification make you immune to drag/stop bubbles, however you couldn't start warp if you were actually in a bubble. PookBear fucked around with this message at 09:30 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 09:16
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So how is the market in Deklein gonna look after Fozziesov? We gonna stick with one hub or will it actually be worthwhile to store commonly used modules and rigs in other constellations?
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May 29, 2015 09:32
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Demiurge4 posted:So how is the market in Deklein gonna look after Fozziesov? We gonna stick with one hub or will it actually be worthwhile to store commonly used modules and rigs in other constellations? The jump changes have already been made, all Fozziesov does is make MoA slightly more annoying (we should move the staging system to 5ZXX and collect MoA tears as they watch hundreds of goons live in ~their space~ nonstop). Oh and I finally found an internet connection poo poo enough to wreck EVE, which managed to let me collect my MTU, empty the loot can, and then removed the MTU but not the loot from my cargo hold 
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May 29, 2015 10:24
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causticBeet posted:What's the point of a non cloaky nullified ship ? Like great I can't be bubbled but the sabre can just long point me anyways. The point is that it should take a specialized setup to catch interceptors, but they absolutely should be catchable. Lower their base sig by ~3-5 (which would help them in their tackling role as well) to insure that they can't be locked and pointed in <3s by anything without at least one sensor booster, and/or give the nullification module +1 warp disruption strength so you either need two long points or a scram range bonused ship. Even with a forced 3s align, if you jump into a gatecamp and see sensor booster effects coming off of a frigate, you crash the gate. You'll still survive 99% of gatecamps, and probably still be able to breeze through the majority of them. The incoming shield extender rebalance will provide useful small extenders with zero sig penalty, and MSEs with a miniscule sig penalty, so fast-aligning nullified interceptors need not be completely naked. Nullification should be an advantage against drag bubbles, bubble-clogged grids (both in big fights and the erstwhile standard of a large bubble on a ratting system gate to insure ratter escape), and unprepared gatecamps. It shouldn't be total tackle immunity. Base interceptor agility and sig radius should not have to suffer just because CCP is too lazy to separate the nullification from the hull and give it the proper drawbacks to balance it. Kiryen posted:I'm not a fan of the "low-slot interdiction module" idea because I feel like that penalizes some interceptors more than others. A nullifier module of some kind is the best solution, because it allows the base interceptor hulls to be as fast, agile, and low-sig as they need to be for their primary role of fast tackle, while providing nullification with appropriate drawbacks as an option for scouting and initial tackle through any number of large bubbles/unprepared gatecamps. YouTuber posted:They could always just make Command Ships change the properties of mods. Run an script into a Link and make it so that Heavy Interdictors can cancel out Nullification. But the downside being that the script roots you in place and you're required to be on grid within a 50km radius of the Hictor. Xolve posted:...or just make Heavy Interdictors immune to nullifiers- instantly that whole class of ships is useful again (outside of tackling supers). Huge_Midget posted:I've been saying that since Fozzieceptors were inflicted upon us. Give hictors a script that makes their bubble kill interdiction nullification so those loving things actually have to engage. Better yet, also make the hictor bubble decloak poo poo. The solution is not some contrived attempt at revival of another ship class, as always, the solution is fixing the broken ship. Ironically, other than giving nullification to interceptors, Fozzie has been pretty good about not specifically altering depressed classes of ships to fix fundamental game balance issues or balance problems with other ships, because it's a really bad idea (as we can see from inherently nullified interceptors).
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May 29, 2015 10:52
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Hictor nullification is the answer because it scales to the risk of flying the ship. When your bubble is up you can't recive any remote reps and your damage is middling at best. Single Intys can still run away unless you have other tackle that can Web them down before they warp off or bounce or a gang of 10 or so could easily roll a full tanked hic. T3 still have cloaks and a good chance of making it out, if not they would probably still be able to take a hic solo or at least tank it with ease and get out. In either case both ships still have a good chance of surviving a gate camp with a hic, while anyone flying a hic is still vulnerable enough that they need gang support and could still easily die.
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May 29, 2015 11:26
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vodkat posted:Hictor nullification is the answer because it scales to the risk of flying the ship. When your bubble is up you can't recive any remote reps and your damage is middling at best. Single Intys can still run away unless you have other tackle that can Web them down before they warp off or bounce or a gang of 10 or so could easily roll a full tanked hic. T3 still have cloaks and a good chance of making it out, if not they would probably still be able to take a hic solo or at least tank it with ease and get out. In either case both ships still have a good chance of surviving a gate camp with a hic, while anyone flying a hic is still vulnerable enough that they need gang support and could still easily die. I think this is a good option. Hic's are expensive and don't function without support so being able to neutralize nullification is probably fine. The remote repair penalty is probably enough on its own but worst case it could probably eat another one without too much fuss. Maybe making it so only the T2 (or even a faction module) bubble generator can counter nullification. To be honest I'd like to see an interdiction nullification option for regular dictors too. Make it an expensive faction probe and call it a day. They seem to be moving into more variety with faction stuff anyway, considering the MWD and afterburner changes coming up.
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May 29, 2015 11:34
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Nevermind that I just explained why it's a bad idea to create an artificial hard counter to an artificial hard counter, the actual risk of putting a HIC in a gatecamp is minimal to zero if you have even one scout. You don't even have to run the bubble constantly, you just turn it on when the target jumps through the gate. If local spikes on the other side, you cycle it off and begin burning away. Only the most pathetic gatecamp wouldn't be able to torch one tackler and get their HIC out safely long before the rest of the gang hit the gate and jumped through. HICs can have such massive tanks anyway, that even if you did something like hotdrop it, it could just stay unaggressed and jump through to safety long before it was threatened. Again, this is the kind of thinking that created the nullified interceptor and all the hosed up subsequent changes to interceptors to try (and fail) to compensate for their nullification. You fix the problem ship, you don't make another ship into a problem to try to balance it out, otherwise you end up chasing your tail across a dozen broken ship classes each trying to cancel each other out. It's like when people suggest 'fixing' supers by creating some kind of anti-super subcap. Contrived bullshit. HICs need to be fixed so they're worth flying period, not just because they counter some other broken bullshit. At least interceptor nullification had an honest purpose: dealing with the untended tackle-delaying large bubble. Demiurge4 posted:a bunch of cost-balancing ideas 
mikey fucked around with this message at 11:55 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 11:43
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I don't have a problem with interdiction nullified ships in general, but I do think there should be situations in which you should be able to block anything from getting into a system. Having a hardcounter in a hic achieves this if you've got problems with this as the way it is you could always make it t2 only and up the cycle timer to 1-2 minutes. Hics are already unable to use prop mods or recive remote reps when bubbling which makes them extremely vulnerable. On a devoter I can overheat my active take to about 1000dps but a few frogs can easily put out that kind of damage.l, or you can go for a huge buffer with which you either accept dying or hope you can last for a cycle before getting remote reps, but then the enemy can bug out.
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May 29, 2015 11:59
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Letting HICS remove nullification kind of defeats the purpose of nullification. Although I would really enjoy camping CCP in RLML Onyxes.
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May 29, 2015 12:00
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Wolfy posted:Letting HICS remove nullification kind of defeats the purpose of nullification. Although I would really enjoy camping CCP in RLML Onyxes. Well you would still be nullified to bubbles and dictors, with hics an actually player needs to put themselves at risk and sit on top of you as they would with a scram.
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May 29, 2015 12:03
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I get why you disagree but I don't see a problem with making the counter a rare and highly sought after drop from faction npc's. It's use would be highly situational and if not sold by an LP store it would be used only on rare occurences and it has the added benefit of being a consumable.
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May 29, 2015 12:07
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vodkat posted:I do think there should be situations in which you should be able to block anything from getting into a system. I prefer the state of system security in ~2007-2009: if you want to get a scout into a system through a large, diverse, and competent gatecamp, you use a nanoed-out covops-- difficult but not impossible to catch. If you want to get combat-capable ships through that gatecamp, you go through a wormhole or a covert cyno (lit by that covops that you ran through the gatecamp). Maybe throw in some sov upgrades and/or anchorables that let you control-- but not entirely eliminate-- wormhole presence in a system you own, but not multiple contiguous systems, or at least not without huge drawbacks to the space in question. This worked. It was fun. Gatecamps were meaningful, but not utterly impassable for the right ships, especially if you knew what you were doing. Nullified T3s made running most gatecamps a lot easier, but you could still catch them, and if you were really good at decloaking, they could be easier to catch than a good covops pilot. Bad gatecamps still missed almost anything with a covops cloak, and even smart interceptors. Homeland defense was really important and you could lock down your space pretty well if you were competent, but you could never be completely secure. Demiurge4 posted:I get why you disagree but I don't see a problem with making the counter a rare and highly sought after drop from faction npc's. It's use would be highly situational and if not sold by an LP store it would be used only on rare occurences and it has the added benefit of being a consumable. If you create an item or module or ship that can do something totally unique, powerful, or (god forbid) necessary, you absolutely cannot balance it with cost, because players will break it. If it has a legitimate reason to exist (and isn't just covering up some other balance problem), then it needs to be balanced entirely by significant inherent drawbacks, with cost as only a secondary factor.
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May 29, 2015 12:26
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I'd agree with that point, my thinking was more along the lines of 'there should be nothing that is impossible to catch' like sub 2s Intys rather it should be skill and ingenuity that gets people past camps.
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May 29, 2015 12:31
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Yo, arms races like making hic bubbles tackle nullified ships are dumb. Every game that has gone down this route became worse for it as it just turns into a huge convoluted mess of broken abilities propping up otherwise subpar ships/classes.
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May 29, 2015 13:44
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