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Sunning posted:Total Players (Owners) without margin of error according to Steam Spy: Thanks for posting that! That makes a lot of sense for the most part, though it's amusing that half the people who own 13-2 haven't played it (assuming I interpreted that right). Any sales data on the GBA ports anywhere? That's probably the best info we're going to get concerning 5 and 6's popularity since they aren't on Steam and iOS/Android sales are likely difficult if not impossible to find.
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May 29, 2015 22:36
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I am pretty sure VII sold almost the same amount in a couple days that VI did over the course of its lifespan period (at least the original version, not including any rereleases), over in Japan. Both sides of the water loving loved VII. It is still the best selling FF.
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May 29, 2015 22:37
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Mega64 posted:Any sales data on the GBA ports anywhere? That's probably the best info we're going to get concerning 5 and 6's popularity since they aren't on Steam and iOS/Android sales are likely difficult if not impossible to find. That actually wouldn't work too well unfortunately. S-E never really said much about their sales and both got small print runs at the very end of the system's lifespan. FFV is probably the least-popular SNES FF but that's largely because it has no benefit of nostalgia. FFVI and FFIV both have people who played it growing up, FFV doesn't on the western side. It has a strong and dedicated fanbase due to stuff like the FJF so that is less that it is unpopular and more than nothing can complete with nostalgia.
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May 29, 2015 22:45
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ImpAtom posted:It absolutely was. You're really underestimating how big FFVII was. Remember that the big RPG franchise in Japan wasn't Final Fantasy. It was Dragon Quest. Final Fantasy VII is the game that really made FF a competitor even in Japan. Fair enough, the further elucidation of FF7's popularity in Japan had me a bit off the mark, but the Coke vs Pepsi upset in Japan vs the West's realization that RPGs even exist in the first place are different phenomena entirely. It's probably just not the best example of what I'm trying to say here. Also like, I'm ok with that I'm wrong about things sometimes, I'm not trying to argue that I'm always right, but I'm trying to look at general trends, not get bogged down in nerdass "WELL ACTUALLY," oneupmanship. If I'm wrong about a detail or fact, I'd appreciate the focus to be on how that does (or doesn't) change my larger point than ignoring it entirely and starting a stupid derail about semantics or why you'd literally have sex with FF13. Furthermore, I'm not writing logical proofs or equations, I'm writing internet posts analyzing a video game series, so being wrong or off on a detail doesn't automatically make everything else wrong or invalid.
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May 29, 2015 22:52
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final fantasy is pretty bad mostly
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May 29, 2015 22:53
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ImpAtom posted:That actually wouldn't work too well unfortunately. S-E never really said much about their sales and both got small print runs at the very end of the system's lifespan. Well, there might be some people like me who grew up with a GBA and have nostalgia for FFV based on the Advance port, but yeah, that's nothing compared to IV and VI actually coming over and being well-liked upon their initial release. Boten Anna posted:Also like, I'm ok with that I'm wrong about things sometimes, I'm not trying to argue that I'm always right, but I'm trying to look at general trends, not get bogged down in nerdass "WELL ACTUALLY," oneupmanship. If I'm wrong about a detail or fact, I'd appreciate the focus to be on how that does (or doesn't) change my larger point than ignoring it entirely and starting a stupid derail about semantics or why you'd literally have sex with FF13. Furthermore, I'm not writing logical proofs or equations, I'm writing internet posts analyzing a video game series, so being wrong or off on a detail doesn't automatically make everything else wrong or invalid. stop Motto fucked around with this message at 22:59 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 22:54
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Boten Anna posted:Remember that a lot of conventional wisdom to us as to what the "good" or "popular" Final Fantasies are are totally different in Japan; IV is a huge developer favorite and VI's reception was lukewarm, whereas here VI tends to be revered as one of the best games ever and IV as pretty good but in few fans' top 3. Lo and behold, IV got a thorough and beautiful remake and remaster, while VI got an OK GBA port and a lovely mobile port. I totally didn't know how much Mass Effect borrowed from Spirits Within but it makes complete sense, as does western devs in general taking cue from the things in the series that didn't resonate with Japanese players but are huge in the Western fanbase and running with them. That always made more sense to me. IV had a much more exciting story than VI. It's big plot twist after plot twist. You're attacked in a castle and lose, your best friend betrays you and steals your girlfriend, your ship gets destroyed and you lose all of your friends, you end up at the worse possible place - the city you attacked in the beginning, you seek forgiveness, two kids in your party turn to stone, Tellah sacrifices himself, your best friend is on your side again, you have to go underground, holy poo poo the girl from the beginning is an adult now and was raised by monsters. VI had the world ending and some good parts too but they're separated by many very slow spots. World of Ruin has good atmosphere but is mostly boring. The main villain just sits and waits while you walk around. Each character usually has one brief development scene in WoR, then they're never heard from again. Character interaction between the whole cast after you get the airship is non-existent in WoR. Also, VI is too easy compared to IV. Japan has it right. IV needs a better HD remake. VI should continue to get nothing.
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May 29, 2015 23:06
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Poor Thief 2014 in those numbers. It's definitely the biggest miss from SE's western studios. Anyway, the general point that SE east has trouble identifying what is resonating with the west is no big revelation but Sunning's point that FF12 could have signaled a huge sea-change in their approach to design if they had been attentive to market signals at the time is pretty cool. Sadly, at this point, they've been forced to sort of road-show FF15 in the west because of the downfall of dedicated game consoles in Japan.
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May 29, 2015 23:07
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Mega64 posted:Thanks for posting that! That makes a lot of sense for the most part, though it's amusing that half the people who own 13-2 haven't played it (assuming I interpreted that right). In Japan, Final Fantasy IV Advance sold 219,391, Final Fantasy V Advance sold 243,443, and Final Fantasy VI Advance sold 281,190. These numbers are from Famitsu yearly catalog of sales with 2007 being the last year these sales figures were updated. Overseas sales breakdown is anyone's guess. Square-Enix's financial documents doesn't mention them at all. However, they did state Final Fantasy Tactics Advance sold over 1.1 million in Europe and North America.
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May 29, 2015 23:11
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corn in the bible posted:final fantasy is pretty bad mostly GTA V is a better RPG than all the FF XIII games.
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May 29, 2015 23:16
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Boten Anna posted:Also like, I'm ok with that I'm wrong about things sometimes, I'm not trying to argue that I'm always right, but I'm trying to look at general trends, not get bogged down in nerdass "WELL ACTUALLY," oneupmanship. If I'm wrong about a detail or fact, I'd appreciate the focus to be on how that does (or doesn't) change my larger point than ignoring it entirely and starting a stupid derail about semantics or why you'd literally have sex with FF13. Furthermore, I'm not writing logical proofs or equations, I'm writing internet posts analyzing a video game series, so being wrong or off on a detail doesn't automatically make everything else wrong or invalid. If you want to do that then you need to stop trying to put your opinions into it. As I said before, the problem with general trends is that you can't extrapolate them easily for something like Final Fantasy which actually has a really large and diverse fanbase. I would be hard pressed to point to a larger one due to a number of factors. (i.e: Massive dissimilarity in games, abnormally large cross-cultural popularity, a number of different strong factors that draw in different demographics, and FF in general appeal to demographics who are not considered 'traditional gamers.) You can't even divide it up by culture. In Japan, for example, there's a very large gap between men and women when it comes to most popular FF games. FFVII does the best with both genders but then FFVIII ranks much higher with women and FFIV with men for example. If you divide it by "hardcore gamers" and 'casual gamers" you see another huge divide. The only constant is that FFVII ranks the highest almost everywhere with FFX, FFVIII and FFIV tending to be the most represented otherwise depending on who you're talking about. The problem with discussing "FF should do this" is that it is way too diverse. With most franchises there are solid favorites and while there are divides among the demographics who play they don't tend to be hugely diverse. With FF, all jokes aside, you will get wildly different answers based off the demographic you poll. Look at the FFXV demo results for example. Even there, with a group of players who have next-gen systems and are willing to buy a FF game almost entirely to get a demo, you still get wild divergences based just on "Japan/America/Europe." (With Japan being the most wild divergence in this case.)
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May 29, 2015 23:20
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"If you liked Final Fantasy 6 so much, why didn't you buy it back then?" -An actual quote for the guy who made the game.
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May 29, 2015 23:32
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Gologle posted:"If you liked Final Fantasy 6 so much, why didn't you buy it back then?" -An actual quote for the guy who made the game. I bought the drat game three times already, what more does he want from me?
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May 29, 2015 23:52
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Look, we're annoying the piss out of everyone so it's probably best to drop it, but you REALLY want to read into what I say as argumentative, authoritative, or as some kind of attempt to establish my opinion as objective fact. I'm sorry up to the point where maybe I could have phrased some of my earlier posts better to make it more clear that this is the exact opposite of the kind of discussion I'm trying to have, but at this point you're so convinced that you HAVE to fight me about SOMETHING for some reason that I can't really meaningfully communicate with you, even though I've explained where I'm coming from several times by now. Also you can discuss trends even though there are exceptions. There's nothing wrong with that. I have no idea what you're going on about that you can't analyze trends, because you can. There's entire fields dedicated to it. Yes you can drill down deeper, go into subgroups, ask why is this more popular with women compared to that, that's all part of trend analysis. Gologle posted:"If you liked Final Fantasy 6 so much, why didn't you buy it back then?" -An actual quote for the guy who made the game. Hey now I saved all my pennies and allowances for FFVI. I still even remember that it cost me $70.02, a small fortune for a child in the 90s.  Even talked some friends into getting it. I tried, guy who made FFVI, I tried  Mega64 posted:I bought the drat game three times already, what more does he want from me? I still haven't gotten the Android version because I'm torn between wanting to support FFVI and not wanting to support the garbage port  But I got the original, (awful) PSX re-release, and the GBA one.
Boten Anna fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 00:06
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Boten Anna posted:Look, we're annoying the piss out of everyone so it's probably best to drop it, but you REALLY want to read into what I say as argumentative, authoritative, or as some kind of attempt to establish my opinion as objective fact. I'm sorry up to the point where maybe I could have phrased some of my earlier posts better to make it more clear that this is the exact opposite of the kind of discussion I'm trying to have, but at this point you're so convinced that you HAVE to fight me about SOMETHING for some reason that I can't really meaningfully communicate with you, even though I've explained where I'm coming from several times by now. lol
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May 30, 2015 00:10
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Gologle posted:"If you liked Final Fantasy 6 so much, why didn't you buy it back then?" -An actual quote for the guy who made the game. It never came out in the UK and cost like £100 to import so I borrowed a rich friends copy and it still crashed at the end sequence every time on the converter I was using.
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May 30, 2015 00:10
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Yeah, I also bought square's $70 monster games with my allowance back in the 90's. And then I played only those games for like a year straight.Boten Anna posted:Look, we're annoying the piss out of everyone so it's probably best to drop it, but
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May 30, 2015 00:17
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The best Final Fantasy game is Final Fantasy _______. The worst one is Final Fantasy ________. This is an objective fact and if you disagree you are literally retarded and human trash
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May 30, 2015 00:23
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Mega64 posted:I bought the drat game three times already, what more does he want from me? You need to invent time travel. (I'm up to 5 myself. No excuses.) Boten Anna posted:you're so convinced that you HAVE to fight me about SOMETHING for some reason that I can't really meaningfully communicate with you, even though I've explained where I'm coming from several times by now. I'm really not. That's what is kind of frustrating about this entire thing. v  v I've written a frankly absurd amount of words about this silly video game franchise in this thread. I like discussing it and I like hearing different opinions and different thoughts. I'm not trying to fight you, I just don't agree with you. I get that you're trying to be objective but in your attempts to be objective you keep letting your opinions leak in and that causes disagreements since a lot of the core arguments you make seem to come from your personal opinion.And that's fine, lord knows this is a discussion thread on the internet about Final Fantasy and opinions are common, but it also means I'm not going to necessarily agree with the conclusions you draw based off those opinions. In short, you're not being as objective as you think you are! Look at how you accuse me of wanting to "literally have sex with FFXIII" because I dared to argue its combat system isn't inherently mechanically flawed. Like there's no room for an argument about FFXIII that isn't "it is objectively bad in every way" or "it is the best game ever."
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May 30, 2015 00:28
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Gammatron 64 posted:The best Final Fantasy game is Final Fantasy _______. The worst one is Final Fantasy ________. This is an objective fact and if you disagree you are literally retarded and human trash The thread returns to its natural state.
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May 30, 2015 00:33
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ImpAtom posted:Look at how you accuse me of wanting to "literally have sex with FFXIII" because I dared to argue its combat system isn't inherently mechanically flawed. Like there's no room for an argument about FFXIII that isn't "it is objectively bad in every way" or "it is the best game ever." You hold the combat system on a pedestal when the game's own designers have admitted as much when they papered over it in XIII-2. The game has a massive, glaring design weakness that you don't care about because the game is still fun if you play it well. That's cool. That's ok. It's still there.
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May 30, 2015 00:44
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That one Ebert quote about how many people calling for objectivity just want you to match their subjective opinion.
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May 30, 2015 00:48
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Gammatron 64 posted:The best Final Fantasy game is Final Fantasy ___X____. The worst one is Final Fantasy ____V____. This is an objective fact and if you disagree you are literally retarded and human trash Filled in your blanks with the correct words.
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May 30, 2015 00:51
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Gammatron 64 posted:The best Final Fantasy game is Final Fantasy Bob Dylan. The worst one is Final Fantasy Billy Joel. This is an objective fact and if you disagree you are literally retarded and human trash Blood on the Tracks is the best, this is fact, yes, I agree with that. The Stranger is also Billy Joel's worst album and the true sign, contrary to what many true believers think, that Billy Joel had sold out, forsaking his humble origins and playing solely for that corporate album money. I agree with everything you have said. gently caress Vienna, all hail Shelter from the Storm.
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May 30, 2015 00:54
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Francis posted:You hold the combat system on a pedestal when the game's own designers have admitted as much when they papered over it in XIII-2. The game has a massive, glaring design weakness that you don't care about because the game is still fun if you play it well. That's cool. That's ok. It's still there. I'm sorry, I can't hear you. There's this clock in the corner of my screen and I'm just too confused by it. The numbers keep going up every minute. What does it mean? Super Ninja Fish posted:Filled in your blanks with the correct words. You're gonna get shanked by the FJF folks. Be careful.
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May 30, 2015 00:56
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ImpAtom posted:I'm sorry, I can't hear you. There's this clock in the corner of my screen and I'm just too confused by it. The numbers keep going up every minute. What does it mean? No, really, if the XIII combat system is so above reproach, why did they add the Wound mechanic in the sequel? Why mess with perfection, right?
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May 30, 2015 01:06
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Francis posted:No, really, if the XIII combat system is so above reproach, why did they add the Wound mechanic in the sequel? Why mess with perfection, right? You really don't get that there exists a point between 'fundamentally flawed" and 'absolutely flawless," huh? FFXIII's combat system has plenty of flaws. So do most games. There is a pretty big difference between the two at the end of the day though. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 01:12
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ImpAtom posted:You really don't get that there exists a point between 'fundamentally flawed" and 'absolutely flawless," huh? I seem to understand the difference better than you do, anyway. A superficial flaw can be excised without making major or systemic changes. It certainly wouldn't necessitate the addition of an entirely new sub-system and new UI elements, art, abilities, and items that interact with that system.
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May 30, 2015 01:19
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Making major changes between games is a longstanding FF tradition, even between direct sequels.
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May 30, 2015 01:22
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Srice posted:That one Ebert quote about how many people calling for objectivity just want you to match their subjective opinion. I really did not intend to come off as trying to say 13 is objectively bad, I was trying to delineate between what's objectively and subjectively bad about it to avoid a derail fighting about personal FF13 opinions, but it didn't work and people lost their poo poo because I only used the word objectively originally and it led to misinterpretations. The battle system is subjectively terrible, it is flawed but it has its fans and that's fine. Elements of its overall game system design, however, are objectively bad design or at least, its a fact that the designers outright admit it was thrown together after they did all the graphics and it wasn't very good to the point where a key feature of the sequels was unfucking it. Now, I hated 13 so much I quit playing before I could see enough of it to comment in detail on what's bad design and what I just personally hated, which is why I wrote the list of indefensibly, objectively awful systems in Theatrhythm because I DID play that enough to go into detail on that as a demonstration of what I meant and to show that SE as of late habitually fucks up initial releases' game systems then has to do them over somehow. All I wanted to do was discuss THAT release pattern, not claw each other out over subjectively awful bad game FF13
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May 30, 2015 01:23
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stop posting about posting
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May 30, 2015 01:24
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Art is fundamentally subjective. Even if you do not consider games an artform (and oh god let's not go on to this tangent) they are a form of entertainment, and the things people find enjoyable are inherently subjective. Final Fantasy VII is not the best video game ever made because there is no such thing. You simply cannot be objective when ranking this sort of thing even if you have played literally every video game ever, because what you find enjoyable might not be the same for everyone and visa versa. In general, my personal tastes are very niche and far from the mainstream so I have learned to accept this. Unfortunately a lot of nerds just can't loving grasp this at all and it frustrates me to no end when someone assumes that I should like what they like and not like what I like because their opinion is a goddamn fact. Do not ever attempt to be "objective". Boten, we have similar tastes and I actually agree with you regarding a lot of stuff but you are acting like a total sperg. Final Fantasy is possibly the best example we can have, because the series is so experimental and each game is so different from the next, that peoples' tastes vary wildly and they will have really, really fierce arguments over which is "the best." Between two FF mmos, countless internet forums and in person arguments I have had the whole "which FF game is the best" conversation so many times that I don't really care which ones you like/dislike and I rarely give a straight answer about my favorite. The best Final Fantasy game is the one I like the best, the worst is the one you like the best. There, case closed. Super Ninja Fish posted:Filled in your blanks with the correct words. I'm gonna shank you.
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May 30, 2015 01:27
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Francis posted:I seem to understand the difference better than you do, anyway. A superficial flaw can be excised without making major or systemic changes. It certainly wouldn't necessitate the addition of an entirely new sub-system and new UI elements, art, abilities, and items that interact with that system. By that viewpoint, X must have the absolute worst battle system in the history of battle systems, since they used pretty much an entirely different one in the sequel.
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May 30, 2015 01:32
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Francis posted:I seem to understand the difference better than you do, anyway. A superficial flaw can be excised without making major or systemic changes. It certainly wouldn't necessitate the addition of an entirely new sub-system and new UI elements, art, abilities, and items that interact with that system. Sure it would. In fact a lot of the most highly-praised combat systems on the market have elements which specifically encourage player action to avoid emphasizing flaws. The entire point of the Ranking system in DMC is this for example. The way DMC is designed is such that you can choose fundamentally boring and safe options and finish the game. This isn't even just "Ebony and Ivory spam" but a lot of basic gameplay mechanics. You can repeat a single combo over and over again, you can play the game save and easy, you can spam items to get past bosses, and so-on. The ranking system was included in the game to give player encouragement not to do these things and instead the game was build around rewarding the player for taking risks and getting aggressive in a game that offers a number of passive options. They further emphasize this in sequels with your ranking actually impacting how certain moves work and other factors, thereby further encourages high ranking instead of passive play. The Arkham Asylum combat system is another good example here. By putting emphasis on rewarding the players for aggression they get around the fact that the core combat system can be pretty trivially cheesed by spamming triangle and throwing things at enemies from afar. The Predator Challenge Rooms specifically are based around medal-focused challenges to force players not to just use the same takedown over and over again and to take advantage of their surroundings since it's easy and arguably trivial to finish the main Predator rooms without touching half the options given to you. Finding ways to turn flaws into strengths is something a lot of good combat systems do. In fact I can't think of a combat system I find really good that doesn't do it. I'd be curious to hear what you think is a combat system (in any genre) that fits your standards. Gammatron 64 posted:The best Final Fantasy game is the one I like the best, the worst is the one you like the best. There, case closed. But my favorite Final Fantasy game isn't the best one and the one I hate the most isn't the worst! (I seriously dislike FFVIII that much but I can't say it is the worst.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 01:33
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AngryRobotsInc posted:By that viewpoint, X must have the absolute worst battle system in the history of battle systems, since they used pretty much an entirely different one in the sequel. No, Lord of the Rings: The Third Age is actually the exact same.
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May 30, 2015 01:35
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Gammatron 64 posted:Art is fundamentally subjective. Even if you do not consider games an artform (and oh god let's not go on to this tangent) they are a form of entertainment, and the things people find enjoyable are inherently subjective. Final Fantasy VII is not the best video game ever made because there is no such thing. You simply cannot be objective when ranking this sort of thing even if you have played literally every video game ever, because what you find enjoyable might not be the same for everyone and visa versa. Games are not, in fact, art. Game design is like architecture in that it mixes elements that can be judged on objective and subjective merits. An ugly bridge that stands is an objectively better bridge than a beautiful bridge that collapses. A building that does not meet the stated needs of its occupants is a badly designed building regardless of what innovations or features it includes or what it looks like. Absolute subjectivity is a fallacy used by the intellectually lazy as an excuse not to think and a security blanket desperately clutched by the insecure when their worldview is challenged. Every Final Fantasy is the worst Final Fantasy.
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May 30, 2015 01:38
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Thanks for the input, Jeff.
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May 30, 2015 01:43
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Gammatron 64 posted:The best Final Fantasy game is
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May 30, 2015 01:47
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Francis posted:Games are not, in fact, art. You shut your loving face 
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May 30, 2015 01:48
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Gammatron 64 posted:Art is fundamentally subjective. Even if you do not consider games an artform (and oh god let's not go on to this tangent) they are a form of entertainment, and the things people find enjoyable are inherently subjective. Final Fantasy VII is not the best video game ever made because there is no such thing. You simply cannot be objective when ranking this sort of thing even if you have played literally every video game ever, because what you find enjoyable might not be the same for everyone and visa versa. Everything has objective measures, it's just a question of what, if anything, they mean. Even in far more inherently abstract art forms like, say, painting or sculpture, there are metrics and objective aspects of them. If a sculptor's hand slips and takes a large chunk out of the face what's supposed to be a realistic human, that's objectively a flaw or mistake. If a bunch of people like it better that way or the sculptor turns it into abstract art or someone makes found art out of it that's way compelling than the original intent, that's cool, but the mistake is still originally an objective flaw. The sculpture could never objectively be described as "without wax". The phrase "without wax" exists in the first place. There's no accounting for taste, there is accounting for "what the gently caress is SE doing where they keep loving up their original releases." I understand the difference. If it's "spergy" to be frustrated that I keep getting responses to my posts that seem to have completely misunderstood what I'm saying and then respond with clarification, then get me a goddamned tube to hug.
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May 30, 2015 01:50
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