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Rhesus Pieces posted:loving animal control departments willingly take more personal risk in dealing with bears and alligators to prevent killing them if it's not absolutely necessary. Humans are alpha predators, top of the food chain, one false step and you're people chow.
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May 29, 2015 18:50
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Talmonis posted:The fact that they were carrying rifles isn't about effectiveness of the lethal weapon over a handgun, it's about the intent. You don't bring an assault rifle to any place that you don't intend to shoot up. It's an abnormal thing for them to be carrying into what should be a routine situation that their sidearms and other non-letal deterrants would be perfectly capable of handling. Also, cops have always had rifles. The fact that they're semi-auto AR-15 instead of something less military looking has more to do with the reliablity and availiblity of those weapons. They're not running around with fully automatic weapons. I understand that they look scary. I don't think they really increase police killings. We should focus on the training, the tactics, and the attitudes. We should look at corruption and collusion between the members of the justice system and we should fully fund independent public defender's offices and create inspector generals offices to investigate and prosecute police departments. Rhesus Pieces posted:The issue I have with them packing AR-15s to a suicide crisis call has nothing to do with optics or the tactical minutiae of the weapon and everything to do with mentality and culture. You're right, he wouldn't be any less dead if they had used their service pistols instead of rifles, but what kind of mentality or culture makes you believe that anything beyond your service pistol as a last resort is necessary for a call like that? It's not a mentality that's going to even attempt de-escalation, that's for drat sure in this case at least. They told him to drop the knife, he didn't comply immediately, and they shot him instantly where he laid in the bed. No risks were going to be taken to save the man's life if it put the officers in any danger whatsoever. It doesn't matter that they were called specifically to save the man's life, the man had a weapon, therefore he is a threat, and the threat must be neutralized with overwhelming force. I really don't care what weapons they have if they use them properly. I agree that bringing the rifles was fairly stupid, but some people are conflating that with "why do cops get ar-15s." Take away the AR-15 and these cops have the same lovely attitude and training and the guy still ends up dead. With proper training, they probably leave the rifle in trunk. I don't really care what they do with the rifles as long as they don't loving kill someone unless they absolutely have to and tried all other means to avoid killing hime. nm fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 18:51
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tentative8e8op posted:I know theyre in backwater Kentucky and all, but Im shocked he's actually facing additional felony charges for 'escaping from jail' when officers just took him away and pushed him onto a long distance bus. I'm hoping that they just did that so they could get him back in Kentucky and that they don't actually plan on charging him.
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May 29, 2015 19:04
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nm posted:I think we're on the same page here. My main issue with the long rifles isn't optical, it's tactical: If you're carrying a rifle then firing it is both the first thought in your mind and your first force option. You can't put it down to switch to a less dangerous tool, excepting the one case where you let someone get close enough to grab it and you have to let go to take out your pistol and use it to deliberately kill your subject. When you pull that thing out you're basically trading a fully-functional police officer for a mobile turret with "If something happens I'm gonna kill poo poo" as the only useful thought in its head. That's great in situations where you need a turret, not so much in situations where your guy jumps on you and your partner resorts to grabbing the rifle by the barrel, swinging it around like a club and praying nothing touches the trigger and blows an ND into his neck. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 19:12 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 19:09
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flakeloaf posted:My main issue with the long rifles isn't optical, it's tactical: If you're carrying a rifle then firing it is both the first thought in your mind and your first force option. You can't put it down to switch to a less dangerous tool, excepting the one case where you let someone get close enough to grab it and you have to let go to take out your pistol and use it to deliberately kill your subject. When you pull that thing out you're basically trading a fully-functional police officer for a mobile turret with "If something happens I'm gonna kill poo poo" as the only useful thought in its head. That's great in situations where you need a turret. Not so much when your guy jumps on you and your partner has to start waving a rifle around by the barrel hoping nothing touches the trigger and blows an ND into his neck. Thats a good point. However, I think the focus should be on the training and attitudes that caused them to use it rather than the "OMG automatic rifles" I've seen everytime a cop with an AR15 does anything.
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May 29, 2015 19:12
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Naturally Selected posted:Failing to find any massive studies with a quick google search (I suck at finding poo poo like that, and most of what I found have sample sizes of sub-1000), but maybe someone with better access/skills can find something-but I can just about guarantee that if you look at other emergency response professions you'll find the same increased prevalence of alcohol/drug abuse, violence, divorce, etc. PTSD and related poo poo kind of comes with the territory of working in emergency services. How the study is designed is far more important than the sample size. Depending on what you are measuring you can get meaningful results with samples of 20 if the experiment is designed correctly.
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May 29, 2015 19:22
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nm posted:So we're focusing on something with little real impact because it is an easy thing for politicians to do while ignoring the underlying rot?  It isn't about how "scary" the weapon looks. At all. (And can we please stop with this condescending NRA bullshit?) It's the fact that they brought them out as a show of force, reflecting this hostile Us vs. Them mentality. The training, tactics and attiude are exactly why they have those rifles. They act as if they're a military occupation in a hostile country. It's the rifles, the body armor, the camoflage uniforms, etc. that make them look like soliders. All of that goes into the culture and mentality, which has a much bigger effect than you think. The rifles in this specific case are signifigant, because it's abnormal to go into that kind of situation armed for a raid. Sure, in the old days they would use the cruiser's shotgun, and it'd be just as bizarre then too for two cops to respond to a non-emergency call with shotguns.
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May 29, 2015 19:28
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Rhesus Pieces posted:The issue I have with them packing AR-15s to a suicide crisis call has nothing to do with optics or the tactical minutiae of the weapon and everything to do with mentality and culture. You're right, he wouldn't be any less dead if they had used their service pistols instead of rifles, but what kind of mentality or culture makes you believe that anything beyond your service pistol as a last resort is necessary for a call like that? It's not a mentality that's going to even attempt de-escalation, that's for drat sure in this case at least. They told him to drop the knife, he didn't comply immediately, and they shot him instantly where he laid in the bed. No risks were going to be taken to save the man's life if it put the officers in any danger whatsoever. It doesn't matter that they were called specifically to save the man's life, the man had a weapon, therefore he is a threat, and the threat must be neutralized with overwhelming force. Problem is there's really no evidence at all to support that police departments got more brutal as they got more weapons. In fact the opposite has generally happened, police seem more out of control now but it's only because we are actually hearing about the incidences when in the past you never would.
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May 29, 2015 19:31
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flakeloaf posted:My main issue with the long rifles isn't optical, it's tactical: If you're carrying a rifle then firing it is both the first thought in your mind and your first force option. You can't put it down to switch to a less dangerous tool, excepting the one case where you let someone get close enough to grab it and you have to let go to take out your pistol and use it to deliberately kill your subject. When you pull that thing out you're basically trading a fully-functional police officer for a mobile turret with "If something happens I'm gonna kill poo poo" as the only useful thought in its head. That's great in situations where you need a turret, not so much in situations where your guy jumps on you and your partner resorts to grabbing the rifle by the barrel, swinging it around like a club and praying nothing touches the trigger and blows an ND into his neck. I see your point on the mindset angle, and I'd add to that that if there's more than one officer on scene, I'd think one of them should be going with a tazer or whatever other less-lethal implement that's available off the bat. If the guy's got a knife, there's no reason to have >1 weapon pointed at him anyways. Since you seem to have a bit of experience with this though, I do have a question. TACTICAL AHEAD: Do cops not use slings? Legit asking, since I've only seen ESU dudes carrying rifles, and they're always at least on a 1-point. If you've got a carbine on a properly worn sling, it's actually easier to transition to a different option than it is if you're holding a pistol. Drop-draw instead of holster-draw. Of course, this assumes a modicum of training, which most PD's seem to bypass-which actually ties into nm's point above. tsa posted:How the study is designed is far more important than the sample size. Depending on what you are measuring you can get meaningful results with samples of 20 if the experiment is designed correctly. I get that, but I also couldn't quickly find any decent-looking studies that weren't ridiculously location-specific or event-specific. Again, I'd love to see some if anyone has em. Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 19:37 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 19:34
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flakeloaf posted:My main issue with the long rifles isn't optical, it's tactical: If you're carrying a rifle then firing it is both the first thought in your mind and your first force option. You can't put it down to switch to a less dangerous tool, excepting the one case where you let someone get close enough to grab it and you have to let go to take out your pistol and use it to deliberately kill your subject. When you pull that thing out you're basically trading a fully-functional police officer for a mobile turret with "If something happens I'm gonna kill poo poo" as the only useful thought in its head. That's great in situations where you need a turret, not so much in situations where your guy jumps on you and your partner resorts to grabbing the rifle by the barrel, swinging it around like a club and praying nothing touches the trigger and blows an ND into his neck. Replace rifle with handgun and literally the exact thing would have happened. Focus on the actual problems, not scary looking things.
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May 29, 2015 19:36
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nm posted:I think we're on the same page here. Yeah, the insane cop culture is the cause of the buildup and misuse of military style weapons, not the other way around. Police training over the past few decades has instilled a perpetual siege mentality among officers which leads to gross misuse of force. It's the "just gotta make it home at the end of the day" mantra that so many departments hammer into their heads that led these officers to think, "hmm, cuffs, taser, pepper spray, baton and pistol vs a suicidal man with a knife? That doesn't make me feel safe enough, better bring the rifles too, and we'll smoke him on the spot if he doesn't comply or moves an inch!"
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May 29, 2015 19:43
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tsa posted:Replace rifle with handgun and literally the exact thing would have happened. Focus on the actual problems, not scary looking things. Would a better solution be to remove guns from the equation altogether?
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May 29, 2015 19:44
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tsa posted:Replace rifle with handgun and literally the exact thing would have happened. Focus on the actual problems, not scary looking things. The cops becoming increasingly militarized is also an issue that people have  Sorry that we impugned Modern Sporting Rifles by suggesting that maybe a cumbersome tool derived from military hardware for longer range infantry versus infantry combat isn't the best when responding to a suicide threat inside a house
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May 29, 2015 19:49
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tsa posted:Replace rifle with handgun and literally the exact thing would have happened. Focus on the actual problems, not scary looking things. I specifically said the actual problem was tactics, not optics. Pistols have holsters that hold weapons securely while you wrestle with people, rifles do not. Focus on reading and comprehending, not posting. Naturally Selected posted:Since you seem to have a bit of experience with this though, I do have a question. TACTICAL AHEAD: They generally do yeah (watching a badly-trained guy with a brand new sling trip/choke himself with it will never not be funny) but drop-draw is still transitioning to another firearm so your only realistic solution is still to shoot things. I wouldn't want to get into a hand-to-hand fight while wearing an unbreakable strap tied a metre-long stick around my neck. If a tool is new and shiny, cops are going to want to use it. They're going to find a reason to put it in their hands whether it should be there or not, and they'll utilize that new toy to solve problems that they should be solving in more intelligent ways. It was like that with the T-handle batons, it was like that with the extendible batons, it happened with pepper spray, it happened with tasers, and it's absolutely happening with the "scary" "militarized kit". That doesn't mean the rifles and the APCs and the helmets are objectively bad, it just means their place as part of a balanced breakfast needs to be emphasized and clearly marked so cops are able to identify the most reasonable force option and deploy it properly. That means having rifles instead of pistols when engaging people with guns who are shooting at you from far away behind cover, and leaving the rifles in the car when you're going into somebody's house to escort one mentally ill person with a knife to the puzzle factory.
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May 29, 2015 20:26
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So what percentage of situations does a cop face that ends up with him needing certain pieces of equipment? If you took away a police officer's entire arsenal (and yes I do mean literally all of it) what kind of danger would he be in on an average day walking the beat?
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May 29, 2015 20:29
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That depends almost entirely on what kind of mouth the cop's got on him.
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May 29, 2015 20:38
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ToxicSlurpee posted:So what percentage of situations does a cop face that ends up with him needing certain pieces of equipment? If you took away a police officer's entire arsenal (and yes I do mean literally all of it) what kind of danger would he be in on an average day walking the beat? That leads towards another question: what percent of police patrol time is spent on walking beats anymore?
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May 29, 2015 20:40
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Trabisnikof posted:That leads towards another question: what percent of police patrol time is spent on walking beats anymore? Roughly 0.
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May 29, 2015 20:42
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ToxicSlurpee posted:So what percentage of situations does a cop face that ends up with him needing certain pieces of equipment? If you took away a police officer's entire arsenal (and yes I do mean literally all of it) what kind of danger would he be in on an average day walking the beat? It's hard to say. I think a good indicator of deadly danger would be whether or not the suspect/civilians has a gun. I wasn't able to find US stats on violent crime involving a gun, but our neighbors to the north do have some information that seems rather enlightening. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2014001/article/11925-eng.htm#a1 quote:police reported approximately 5,600 victims of violent crime where a firearm was present in 2012, a rate of 21 victims for every 100,000 population Maybe if we find the US equivalent data we can determine whether police need guns in most cases or not.
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May 29, 2015 20:59
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flakeloaf posted:I specifically said the actual problem was tactics, not optics. Pistols have holsters that hold weapons securely while you wrestle with people, rifles do not. Focus on reading and comprehending, not posting. I was talking more about transitioning to a pepper spray/tazer/whathaveyou instead of an actual fistfight. All of this is academic though, since de-escalation should've been the first step, regardless of what they're actually carrying. ......Although that consideration does explain why some departments wanted to get bayonets  Before someone jumps on it, bayonets for cops are the most retarded poo poo ever and anyone who decided their department needs one should be slapped silly
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May 29, 2015 21:18
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Naturally Selected posted:......Although that consideration does explain why some departments wanted to get bayonets Hey, militarized police chat needs it's comic relief ! You know what'd be great? Weapon attachments that not only make our rifles less accurate, but would cause an absolute shitstorm if they were ever used. Odds are they just got them because they were available and weapon-toys are fun for adult-kids. Although I wish I could actually say for certain they never would've been attached in any sort of policing situation. e: fixed hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 21:43 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 21:37
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Naturally Selected posted:I was talking more about transitioning to a pepper spray/tazer/whathaveyou instead of an actual fistfight. All of this is academic though, since de-escalation should've been the first step, regardless of what they're actually carrying. A bayonet by itself is pretty much a fixed blade knife, which is probably why they got them. edit: actually more likely is for ceremonial purposes, such as the firing party at funeral details.
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May 29, 2015 22:36
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Don't say pretty much, it is just an expensive fixed blade knife, see here http://www.armynavysales.com/products/ontario-m9-bayonet-and-scabbard/
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May 29, 2015 22:42
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^^^ Same goes to you !  Jarmak posted:A bayonet by itself is pretty much a fixed blade knife, which is probably why they got them. It is still an absolute joke. Don't pretend otherwise. Might as well have them giving a military funeral, give 'em some cannons too, sheesh, they're fighting a war after all. It's a tragedy when police officers die. They are not soldiers, however, it isn't a war. e: Also we're starting to stray into the minutiae of police militarization rather than talking about how a suicidal man was executed unapologetically because of a lack of training, empathy, and a ridiculous response to someone whose intent was to harm themselves, while the person who sought help found only those willing to kill the man in question. Is anyone intimately familiar with San Antonio's mental health emergency services? From all I've heard they are doing a bang up job of actually doing their job. hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 22:56 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 22:45
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hobotrashcanfires posted:^^^ Same goes to you ! Really? firing parties and fixed blade knives are police militarization problems that require reform?
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May 29, 2015 23:12
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You can go into any sporting goods store and buy a similar knife, they're just getting these for free. It's literally not a problem so long as they use it as a utility knife. They have loving wire strippers on them, they're not primarily for attaching to guns.
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May 29, 2015 23:15
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Y'all bitches need to read spoiler tags and chill the gently caress out.
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May 29, 2015 23:33
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ElCondemn posted:It's hard to say. I think a good indicator of deadly danger would be whether or not the suspect/civilians has a gun. I wasn't able to find US stats on violent crime involving a gun, but our neighbors to the north do have some information that seems rather enlightening. Sadly, but unsurprisingly, the US and Canadian figures are nothing alike. The FBI posted:During 2013, law enforcement made an estimated 11,302,102 arrests (including 480,360 for violent crimes and 1,559,284 for property crimes). The highest number of arrests were for drug abuse violations (estimated at 1,501,043), larceny-theft (estimated at 1,231,580), and driving under the influence (estimated at 1,166,824). I should certainly hope they include trafficking and production in the definition of an "abuse violation" cause if not holy poo poo that's a lot of people in jail for smoking pot. Stats Canada posted:Firearm-related violent crime accounted for 2% of all victims of violent crime in 2012, a proportion that has remained stable over the past four years. For the large majority (81%) of victims of violent crime, there was no weapon present during the commission of the offence. A weapon other than a firearm, such as a knife or blunt instrument, was present in 17% of violent offences. It seems Canadians prefer to handle things manually. Naturally Selected posted:I was talking more about transitioning to a pepper spray/tazer/whathaveyou instead of an actual fistfight. All of this is academic though, since de-escalation should've been the first step, regardless of what they're actually carrying. I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of that. We didn't have tasers and spray is... well, it's a pain in the rear end quite honestly. You will cross-contaminate the room, your partners, yourself, your gear (clip shut my mag pouch a day later, wipe my eye aaaaaaand I'm gonna need a minute), if it doesn't work on your guy then now you're fighting with him in a bad mood, if it does work you have to hose him off and listen to him bitch about it until you can get someone else to accept responsibility for him. Also I just had the thought of some other yoyo deciding to hose down the room while I have my gun out, which means now I have to put my weapon away because I can't see. If you think the person you're talking to is the kind of guy who's been to jail before and knows how much it sucks, then pointing the can at him is a great way to gain his compliance. Actually using it.... gently caress that, I vastly preferred the baton. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 00:07
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Jarmak posted:Really? firing parties and fixed blade knives are police militarization problems that require reform? How did you manage to quote me, without the addition to what I said a good 30 minutes before your post was made? Here you go The guy you quoteposted but apparently left some bits out posted:e: Also we're starting to stray into the minutiae of police militarization rather than talking about how a suicidal man was executed unapologetically because of a lack of training, empathy, and a ridiculous response to someone whose intent was to harm themselves, while the person who sought help found only those willing to kill the man in question. Is anyone intimately familiar with San Antonio's mental health emergency services? From all I've heard they are doing a bang up job of actually doing their job. This is a silly avenue of discussion. Police receiving bayonets from the military is likewise absurd. If police officers in the [please cite - I was under the impression it was incredibly limited] areas that requested and received bayonets were doing so for the express purposes of military style funerals because they were dying so frequently as for that to be necessary [please cite], then let's move on to more pertinent areas of discussion and not pretend that I disparaged 21 gun salutes for officers killed in the line of duty. But hey, I said the deaths of police officers are a tragedy while at the same time questioned the idea that police funerals should be treated exactly the same as the most pompous of military funerals. Oh yeah, I also said the conversation was veering into the obscure, comical minutiae of police militarization. Please do again redress me about how I believe fixed blade knives are the pinnacle of the question of police reform.
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May 30, 2015 00:32
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flakeloaf posted:I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of that. We didn't have tasers and spray is... well, it's a pain in the rear end quite honestly. You will cross-contaminate the room, your partners, yourself, your gear (clip shut my mag pouch a day later, wipe my eye aaaaaaand I'm gonna need a minute), if it doesn't work on your guy then now you're fighting with him in a bad mood, if it does work you have to hose him off and listen to him bitch about it until you can get someone else to accept responsibility for him. Also I just had the thought of some other yoyo deciding to hose down the room while I have my gun out, which means now I have to put my weapon away because I can't see. If you think the person you're talking to is the kind of guy who's been to jail before and knows how much it sucks, then pointing the can at him is a great way to gain his compliance. Actually using it.... gently caress that, I vastly preferred the baton. Yeah I realized a little after posting how stupid of an idea pepper spray is in confined quarters. Was just listing it off as "poo poo that isn't definitely, 100% going to kill the poor gently caress." Bayo Derail: Also, for the record, no. A loving 7 inch ~utility knife~ is not something a cop should ever have a need for. They're not building FOBs, they're not digging foxholes, barring that one reindeer pic, they're not field-dressing animals or wounded, they don't need an improvised device for cutting through razor wire (because they have a pair of wire cutters in the trunk). Outside of that and opening beer bottles, the M9 doesn't provide dick-all utility, unlike even the cheapest of multitools. ARs have their place in LE, so do armored vehicles, so do CS launchers, etc. loving bayonets don't.
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May 30, 2015 01:01
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hobotrashcanfires posted:How did you manage to quote me, without the addition to what I said a good 30 minutes before your post was made? Hey guys, how dare you illustrate how dumbass my comments are, I mean I edited in a disclaimer that they weren't really important
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May 30, 2015 07:14
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Empathy is for pussies. Nor for heroes. http://www.alternet.org/ex-cops-speak-candidly-about-14-year-old-killed-nypd-shocking-facebook-exchange quote:Ex-Cops Speak Candidly About 14-Year Old Killed by NYPD in Shocking Facebook Exchange
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May 30, 2015 07:23
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If you look thug up in the dictionary it isn't a racial slur and we are using it correctly, therefore we aren't using it to replace the N. word. Signed, all of these assholes.
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May 30, 2015 10:04
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Pohl posted:If you look thug up in the dictionary it isn't a racial slur and we are using it correctly, therefore we aren't using it to replace the N. word. Kid wasn't black
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May 30, 2015 11:32
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Naturally Selected posted:Kid wasn't black Ummm, he sure as hell wasn't white, so you've just proven my point. Maybe he wasn't black, but he didn't pass the brown bag test. Do I have to remind you that sand N..... is a thing? Pohl fucked around with this message at 12:08 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 12:05
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What in the loving hell. Guy in Nevada shoots two squaters in their bed at a property he owns. He walks, on all counts. article posted:Wilson testified during the two-week trial that she stayed at the duplex off and on for three years. She said Burgarello opened fire without provocation while she and Devine were sleeping in a makeshift bed on the floor. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/30/nevada-finds-man-not-guilty-in-killing-unarmed-trespasser/ Pohl fucked around with this message at 12:41 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 12:38
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"arm like a gun" 
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May 30, 2015 12:41
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Agrajag posted:"arm like a gun" I'm not psychic, but I know that guy knew they were there and he just went and executed them. Then, he uses stand your ground or other defense laws to escape punishment, and he gets away with it. Just holy gently caress.
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May 30, 2015 12:47
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Far, far more extreme. I got kicked out of the bike shop for being a straight white man about a month ago, since it was a "safe space" night or something. So I just didn't get to fix my bike. Haha, I wonder how these people are going to look back on their racist/bigot/sexist phases
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May 30, 2015 13:31
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Far, far more extreme. I got kicked out of the bike shop for being a straight white man about a month ago, since it was a "safe space" night or something. So I just didn't get to fix my bike. What are you a pussy? Fix your own drat bike. Before anyone freaks out, the joke is the insult. Seriously though, fix your own bike, they aren't that difficult. You can pretty much youtube any video that you might need.
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May 30, 2015 14:17
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