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Remind us why Gil just leaves again? Because holy poo poo that was stupid.
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May 30, 2015 21:06
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 23:48 |
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Fangz posted:Remind us why Gil just leaves again? Because holy poo poo that was stupid. He's an arrogant rear end in a top hat and doesen't really see any point duking it out with Saber in a burning house. Why would he stay is the real question. Darth Walrus posted:End of that arc really does show that they should have altered the 'Rin gets left to Shinji' bit. It sticks out like a sore thumb, and clashes especially badly with the 'her kindness helped him remember himself' thing. Yeah Shinji could have been easily toned down to get the point that hes an insecure douchebag and will kill people so he can pretend to be a mage.
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May 30, 2015 21:10
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Fangz posted:Remind us why Gil just leaves again? Because holy poo poo that was stupid. The unstated reason is that he was concerned about Ilya's heart "spoiling." The other reason is that he isn't actually certain he can defeat full-strength Saber with a competent Master, at least not in a timely fashion.
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May 30, 2015 21:12
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Fangz posted:Remind us why Gil just leaves again? Because holy poo poo that was stupid. quote:"Are you running away, Archer?" He doesn't want to kill Rin right now, because that'd make Saber disappear. He doesn't care about Shirou in the slightest. He doesn't want to waste time fighting Saber, and possibly wounding her - or worse, killing Rin in the crossfire, or getting them trapped in the burning building. He sees no possibility for his defeat, so he doesn't have a need to kill them here. He has a goal, so he'll focus on that instead of wasting time and risking Saber's death.
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May 30, 2015 21:14
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He's also getting soot on his clothes.
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May 30, 2015 21:24
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Compendium posted:He's also getting soot on his clothes.
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May 30, 2015 21:28
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Endorph posted:imo i could buy that if he was wearing the furcoat, but that biker jacket? that looks kinda cheap. Simple cheap looking cut, but expensive cloth. It's anime, can't tell what exactly it's made of of. He could be clad in silk from head to toe, and that's like, 500$ of raw material before the first stitch.
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May 30, 2015 21:46
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In the VN, he stops right when a bit of ash falls on the sleeve of his coat. He really is that vain.
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May 30, 2015 22:03
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I think Gil also likes to gloat and it's more satisfactory to do that over a longer period of time. He might also enjoy giving them time to despair or whatnot.  Hahaha, gently caress you Shinji.
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May 30, 2015 22:25
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Next week: sex.
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May 30, 2015 22:57
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Twiddy posted:Next week: sex. Or mana dragons hakkart fucked around with this message at 23:42 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 23:36
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hakkart posted:Or mana dolphins Fixed it for UBW.
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May 30, 2015 23:54
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Gil not using his blatantly hax powers in a particularly efficient way is the only thing that makes it possible to use him in a story at all.
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May 30, 2015 23:59
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imo i feel like the 'why is this character not doing the most efficient thing at all times' thing is a really boring way of looking at a story characters should act according to their motivations, goals, and personality. gil is one of the most consistent characters in F/SN: he's always acting in a way that makes sense to himself.
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May 31, 2015 00:15
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Rand Brittain posted:Gil not using his blatantly hax powers in a particularly efficient way is the only thing that makes it possible to use him in a story at all.
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May 31, 2015 00:16
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I have a question about REAL ARCHER (NOT lovely FUTURE SUICIDE BOY)'s plan: How exactly does it work? The grail being active for a couple of minutes was enough to burn a hole in Fuyuki, but it's not like the whole city was destroyed. Is there an infinite amount of miasmatic bad mojo mud inside of it? Enough for it to y'know... cross all the water (because there's a lot of it) around Japan and hit the rest of the world? Because that seems a little excessive, even for "all the evils of mankind." And hypothetically, if this roughly eight inches in diameter hole eventually spilled forth enough angry ooze to cover the planet, would anyone/thing be left? Gil says he wants subjects that are capable of surviving in hell itself; is that actually possible, or is he just loopier than a Sonic the Hedgehog stage since his reincarnation? also equilibrium>fate stay night dwi nerds
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May 31, 2015 00:44
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1.) Archer is the real archer. Gilgamesh is leftovers. 2.) Yes, it absolutely could kill everyone on Earth. Clearly surviving it anyway is possible, since shirou did it, but I think gilgamesh may be overestimating the chances. Makes some sense, since gilgamesh is from the bad rear end time of badasses.
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May 31, 2015 00:52
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The reality marble conceit was a good visual metaphor for ending that battle. Not really unexpected after the last episode, but well done.Endorph posted:also nasu's female characters are generally Grade-A. like yeah there's tons of random weird poo poo but i can put up with a weird sex scene or a ten minute scene where Rin's tied to a chair because overall they're active participants in the story with diverse backstories, motivations, and personalities. as opposed to this weird tumblr thing of instantly declaring a writer misogynistic the moment he crosses some random arbitrary line, no matter what comes before or after that. Eh, even Nasu himself admitted in a later interview that he's unhappy with how he used to write female characters. IIRC, his problem was that while he's willing to give them physical or magical strength, they always end up being emotionally weak and needing a good man to ground them. Or, to put it more flippantly, he writes hysterical broads who can't control their emotions. Yeah, they have backstories, motivations, and personalities, but they're too tied to those premises and can't grow on their own without a male protagonist to help them move along. By contrast, for example, Shirou overcomes his own doubts in UBW purely by his own internal motivation, without any help from Saber or Rin (who themselves are emotionally supported by him: why does Saber need the Archer v. Shirou conflict to tell her which side of her is right? Why can't she figure it out on her own like Shirou does?).
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May 31, 2015 00:58
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OnimaruXLR posted:I have a question about REAL ARCHER (NOT lovely FUTURE SUICIDE BOY)'s plan: How exactly does it work? The grail being active for a couple of minutes was enough to burn a hole in Fuyuki, but it's not like the whole city was destroyed. Is there an infinite amount of miasmatic bad mojo mud inside of it? Enough for it to y'know... cross all the water (because there's a lot of it) around Japan and hit the rest of the world? Because that seems a little excessive, even for "all the evils of mankind." And yes, that goo could destroy the whole world, easy. It was purely a matter of time that the Grail was open. Think of what happened in that town as lightly tipping the cup and having a drip land on the city. Clarste posted:Eh, even Nasu himself admitted in a later interview that he's unhappy with how he used to write female characters. IIRC, his problem was that while he's willing to give them physical or magical strength, they always end up being emotionally weak and needing a good man to ground them. Or, to put it more flippantly, he writes hysterical broads who can't control their emotions. Yeah, they have backstories, motivations, and personalities, but they're too tied to those premises and can't grow on their own without a male protagonist to help them move along. By contrast, for example, Shirou overcomes his own doubts in UBW purely by his own internal motivation, without any help from Saber or Rin (who themselves are emotionally supported by him: why does Saber need the Archer v. Shirou conflict to tell her which side of her is right? Why can't she figure it out on her own like Shirou does?). That said, I'm also gonna agree that woman characters in Nasuverse stories tend to be grade A. No writing's perfect, but having a cast that's consistently well rounded enough to be real people is pretty great work. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 01:16 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 01:10
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Twiddy posted:To be fair, while I would agree that you could argue that applies to most of his female characters (Ryougi Shiki, Arcueid, Saber, Sakura), Rin's very well done as having development that follows from her interactions with Shirou that aren't dependent on Shirou. From my perspective, Rin's a nice break from that potential flaw in his writing. Meh. Slightly off topic, but I would say Ryougi is a better female lead than Rin in the sense of being able to deal with her own issues and grow. While Mikiya helped her deal with her murderous side, a lot of it was dealt with internally with Mikiya just as a spectator. In fact, I'd say that he needed her more than the other way around.
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May 31, 2015 01:43
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Clarste posted:Eh, even Nasu himself admitted in a later interview that he's unhappy with how he used to write female characters. IIRC, his problem was that while he's willing to give them physical or magical strength, they always end up being emotionally weak and needing a good man to ground them. Or, to put it more flippantly, he writes hysterical broads who can't control their emotions. Yeah, they have backstories, motivations, and personalities, but they're too tied to those premises and can't grow on their own without a male protagonist to help them move along. By contrast, for example, Shirou overcomes his own doubts in UBW purely by his own internal motivation, without any help from Saber or Rin (who themselves are emotionally supported by him: why does Saber need the Archer v. Shirou conflict to tell her which side of her is right? Why can't she figure it out on her own like Shirou does?).
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May 31, 2015 01:48
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Not to mention that Shirou clearly needs Rin to ground him. She doesn't actively push him forward in his development but without Rin he'd be doing a lot stupider poo poo after UBW is over. and, again, look at all the parallels with Shirou and Saber. "A good female character can't ever, ever need help from a male character' is a really boring way of writing a story, tbh. It's one thing if they're overly dependent on them but a push here and there is what's called a friendship, or possibly a romance.
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May 31, 2015 01:50
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Endorph posted:this is dumb and nasu is wrong about his own writing. Eh, not necessarily, Nasu's at least self-aware which is what I give him the most props for. Clarste posted:Or, to put it more flippantly, he writes hysterical broads who can't control their emotions. This is dumb though.
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May 31, 2015 02:02
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No one ever likes the flippant.
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May 31, 2015 02:04
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Actually, I've been thinking through it and I don't think Gilgamesh's plan in UBW is even as dumb as I was giving it credit for. The grail would kill almost everyone sure, but there's probably a hundred people with names in the Nasuverse who could maybe survive it (3/5th of them being vampires, but so it goes). Extrapolating outward, Gilgamesh might have a thousand "people" to rule when all's said and done. Course, some of those could also possibly Roflstomp him, but he would never let that part into his thought process.
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May 31, 2015 02:06
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I suddenly just realized that Shinji was technically in UBW's OP this whole time.
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May 31, 2015 02:09
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hakkart posted:Actually, I've been thinking through it and I don't think Gilgamesh's plan in UBW is even as dumb as I was giving it credit for. The grail would kill almost everyone sure, but there's probably a hundred people with names in the Nasuverse who could maybe survive it (3/5th of them being vampires, but so it goes). Extrapolating outward, Gilgamesh might have a thousand "people" to rule when all's said and done. That would be perfectly fine with him.
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May 31, 2015 02:27
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Rodyle posted:That would be perfectly fine with him. That's what I'm saying.
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May 31, 2015 02:34
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Compendium posted:Eh, not necessarily, Nasu's at least self-aware which is what I give him the most props for. Essentially, he seems to have noticed how complex this topic is and found himself lacking in the past, which is very respectable. hakkart posted:Actually, I've been thinking through it and I don't think Gilgamesh's plan in UBW is even as dumb as I was giving it credit for. The grail would kill almost everyone sure, but there's probably a hundred people with names in the Nasuverse who could maybe survive it (3/5th of them being vampires, but so it goes). Extrapolating outward, Gilgamesh might have a thousand "people" to rule when all's said and done. Course, some of those could also possibly Roflstomp him, but he would never let that part into his thought process.
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May 31, 2015 02:34
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hakkart posted:Actually, I've been thinking through it and I don't think Gilgamesh's plan in UBW is even as dumb as I was giving it credit for. The grail would kill almost everyone sure, but there's probably a hundred people with names in the Nasuverse who could maybe survive it (3/5th of them being vampires, but so it goes). Extrapolating outward, Gilgamesh might have a thousand "people" to rule when all's said and done. Course, some of those could also possibly Roflstomp him, but he would never let that part into his thought process. What's interesting is that Shirou is an example of such a person.
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May 31, 2015 03:00
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Depends on whether or not Gil counts Avalon as cheating. On one hand, he didn't survive through his own power, while on the other you could say his luck is part of who he is.
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May 31, 2015 03:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:What's interesting is that Shirou is an example of such a person. Clarste posted:Depends on whether or not Gil counts Avalon as cheating. On one hand, he didn't survive through his own power, while on the other you could say his luck is part of who he is.
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May 31, 2015 03:09
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As far as we know, is Heroic Spirit EMIYA the only modern and/or future heroic spirit? That would make him pretty unique.
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May 31, 2015 03:25
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Well like Archer said, a mage needs some kind of catalyst for the heroic spirit they're summoning, so outside of a really specific situation like his with Rin's jewel pendant, it's pretty unlikely someone in the past is going to have an object that was valuable or defining for someone who becomes a hero in the future.
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May 31, 2015 03:36
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Speaking of, couldn't Avalon also be used as a catalyst for Archer because Shirou's been lugging it around in his body for 10+ years? Saber's obviously more identified with Excalibur's scabbard then some no-name future hero, but now I'm wondering how things would have gone down of Kiritsugu had accidentally summoned his future adopted son instead of the King of Knights.
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May 31, 2015 03:45
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maybe if someone used Excalibur as a catalyst to summon arturia first, idk? i think avalon would probably default to arturia over EMIYA thanks to folklore and legends and stuff; it's hard to imagine EMIYA being summoned by anyone other than Rin or as a counter guardian, given he's pretty unknown and how he died
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May 31, 2015 03:52
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that's complete theorycrafting and personal assumptions though, i wouldn't be surprised if nasu or an official source has given an answer about those questions
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May 31, 2015 03:55
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Twiddy posted:Just to help you as a short intro to the Nasuverse fandom, Gilgamesh is almost always called Gil because as you can see he was introduced as the secret 8th servant in the 5th Holy Grail War, Gilgamesh (who happened to be Archer in the last one). Archer refers to the dude who started that GAR meme. This only seems to apply to Gil, though; the other Fourth War Servants are frequently referred to by their classes, which can be confusing. Extra and Apocrypha Servants are more often referred to by their actual names, although a couple of the Extra Servants have nicknames. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 04:03 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 03:57
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Silver2195 posted:This only seems to apply to Gil, though; the other Fourth War Servants are frequently referred to by their classes, which can be confusing. Exactly, it does get confusing. DOUBLY so for Gil since he's in the same war as other Archers, so you can't even narrow it down by figuring out which Greil war your discussing and saying Archer. So Gilgamesh is always Gilgamesh. Which is fitting for the 2/3 god king of Uruk to be referred t by name, and not class.
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May 31, 2015 04:11
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The only Zero Servant referred to by class regularly is Berserker, everybody else is outted immediately so people just say their names.
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May 31, 2015 04:27
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