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I always use the generic class names to talk about the Servants from stay night. So, when I say Archer I always mean EMIYA, Caster always is Medea, etc. For the Servants outside of stay night, I just preface them like Zero Lancer or Zero Rider. Gil is special, though, as he considers himself to be.
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May 31, 2015 04:46
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On yet the other hand, wouldn't Gil's scheme just summon the Counter Guardians to burn his attempt to the ground? Also, is the only purpose for Heroic Spirits to exist to die in grail wars? That's not a particularly meaningful existence.
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May 31, 2015 05:00
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Phobophilia posted:On yet the other hand, wouldn't Gil's scheme just summon the Counter Guardians to burn his attempt to the ground? Heroic Spirits are things that exist independent of Grail Wars, and in fact Servants aren't actually even the proper Spirits but more like imitations of them based on the class templates. Gil's scheme probably would do that yes, most any extinction event probably trips Alaya's alarm bell actually. I doubt Gil considers that a threat though.
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May 31, 2015 05:04
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Less imitation and more a spirit summoning where the spirit is snipped down so it can fit into a magical container modeled after a class template, which is how they can manifest independently. That's why they lose a good chunk of their bling and bang if they're really strong. The traditional method is to call upon a spirit and let it possess your body for whatever thing you need. Think Shaman King. Jeanne does this in Apocrypha with some random french girl (who looks suspiciously similar to her). OnimaruXLR posted:I have a question about REAL ARCHER (NOT lovely FUTURE SUICIDE BOY)'s plan: How exactly does it work? The grail being active for a couple of minutes was enough to burn a hole in Fuyuki, but it's not like the whole city was destroyed. Is there an infinite amount of miasmatic bad mojo mud inside of it? Enough for it to y'know... cross all the water (because there's a lot of it) around Japan and hit the rest of the world? Because that seems a little excessive, even for "all the evils of mankind." The Grail still grants wishes, except twisted for the worst possible outcome. Which suits Gil just fine. All he needs to do is get it going and then wish "Purge the weak". E: Jesus gently caress where's the goddamn interview that Clarste mentions. I know I've seen it but I can't loving find it. Kyte fucked around with this message at 06:07 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 05:40
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Twiddy posted:Next week: sex. Yes finally
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May 31, 2015 06:43
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Kyte posted:Less imitation and more a spirit summoning where the spirit is snipped down so it can fit into a magical container modeled after a class template, which is how they can manifest independently. That's why they lose a good chunk of their bling and bang if they're really strong. It's from here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NEZzQsil7Zgkajr6ESYIoW1JNN6aeBuG4kE2SZWghXw/edit?pli=1 But in case you don't want to root it out, here's where you can read it: http://glee-is-epic.tumblr.com/post/120154872274
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May 31, 2015 07:02
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Phobophilia posted:On yet the other hand, wouldn't Gil's scheme just summon the Counter Guardians to burn his attempt to the ground? But yeah Heroic Spirits... I guess you can call them the final defense in Humanity's immune system. After the threat's been identified and has been considered serious enough, they're sent out to clean up.
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May 31, 2015 08:31
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Compendium posted:It's from here: Oh, I'd assumed it was in Tsukikan with all the other interviews. Thanks. Speaking of BL-compiled information, somebody bothered to take the above and turn it into this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B49crU71miHObWRvV2tDUllYTjQ/edit Anyways I wanted to reread it because I noticed the interpretation people were giving it didn't quite jive with what I remembered. Gonna quote for convenience: quote:No, instead of (K-On! having) female superiority, thats’s just absence of men. It looks like girls are being prioritized, but if men don’t appear to begin with, it’s like nothing more than building a farm where there can be no antagonism. In that sense, women become more like mascots… it might mean looking down on them. Not by the creators, but by the audience. Speaking of my own works, people often tell me “Nasu-san, you really appreciate women’s rights, because you write stories with strong girls in them”, and I agreed too, but lately I started thinking that might not be the case. In Tsukihime and in Fate, the heroines Arcueid and Saber are the ones fighting on the front lines and the protagonists are behind them. In Kara no Kyoukai, the fighting is always left to the heroine Ryougi Shiki, and the protagonist Kokutou Mikiya becomes just the man who feeds the heroine. That composition is actually very male chauvinistic. When you think about physical strength and emotional strength, the latter is more difficult to achieve. Anyone can be strong if they pick up a weapon, but you can’t become mentally strong just by obtaining a thing. In the works of Nasu Kinoko, strength in battle is possessed by the heroines, and the male characters symbolize emotional strength. When I noticed this, I felt like even I’m stuck in my ways [?] in some respects. For example Arcueid is said to be the strongest in the world of Type-Moon, but at the same time because she’s in love with Shiki she tends to give in to what he says. At those times the man is the one put in a superior position. If it were truly even, Arcueid could use her superfluous power to send Shiki flying. Like “you two-timing bastard!” lol Come to think of it, from what I've heard of Mahoyo, Nasu's done a fairly good job at applying what he's reflected, what with Aoko being the protagonist both physically and emotionally. Kyte fucked around with this message at 09:15 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 09:02
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Phobophilia posted:On yet the other hand, wouldn't Gil's scheme just summon the Counter Guardians to burn his attempt to the ground? Counter guardians do not PREVENT danger to the world. They STOP it. Gil's plan threatens humanity eventually, but right now? Nothing. It's barely a threat to the city. Once it starts going past that however...
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May 31, 2015 16:19
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I'd love to see a group of Counter Guardians drop down and wreck house. Sounds like it'd be a cool one-off thing to show.
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May 31, 2015 19:25
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Phobophilia posted:On yet the other hand, wouldn't Gil's scheme just summon the Counter Guardians to burn his attempt to the ground? The Counter Force doesn't work exclusively through Guardians--Guardians are what it deploys when all else fails to sterilize the area and cauterize the wound when it's made, but before it becomes septic. Normally, the Counter Force does things like "Make sure the right people are in the right place with the right ideas and the right talents to foil the plot before it goes critical."
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May 31, 2015 19:56
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Alectai posted:The Counter Force doesn't work exclusively through Guardians--Guardians are what it deploys when all else fails to sterilize the area and cauterize the wound when it's made, but before it becomes septic. Luckily this city is full of teenagers with attitude.
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May 31, 2015 20:14
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I don't know that Rin would take orders from the giant head guy very well.
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May 31, 2015 20:23
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Rodyle posted:I don't know that Rin would take orders from the giant head guy very well. Especially since the giant head guy would be Kotomine. And he would still enjoy mapo tofu even without having hands.
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Jun 1, 2015 03:05
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AfroSquirrel posted:Especially since the giant head guy would be Kotomine. And he would still enjoy mapo tofu even without having hands. What? Kotomine has nothing to do with the Counter Force.
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Jun 1, 2015 03:27
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Fangz posted:What? Kotomine has nothing to do with the Counter Force. Let me make this a little more blunt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0YkXmebAGM
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Jun 1, 2015 03:33
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Oh yeah, there should be some gifs for this episode (couldn't find one of Tetsuo'ed Shinji though maybe that's a good thing)   bonus: king of shiteating grins  bonus bonus: a little something for the ladies  (well, for everyone let's be real here)
Compendium fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 2, 2015 23:16
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You guys are gettings the wrong idea about Kiritsugu in F/Z, this is probably due to the main problem with the anime adaptation, since have trouble characterizing introverted characters like F/Z Kotomine and Kiritsugu. (and still have some issues characterizing characters that wasn't). Kiritsugu doesn't actually believe in utilitarianism, he just practice a form of it because it was the only realistic way for him he knows of to get anywhere. But it is still something not acceptable for him, he chased for the Holy Grail to try to create such world without need for such sacrifice. And Kiritsugu doesn't even think he's a good person, he thinks he's immoral due to his methods. and one of the reasons he said he doesn't deserve to hold Illya when she was born. The Magus-Killer persona is something he forced himself to adopt because he felt he directly caused the destruction of his village because he ran away when Shirely asked him to kill her. Kotomine even talked about it in F/SN: quote:"You do not need to understand. Emiya Kiritsugu desired peace. Isn't it simple? But it was too simple for this complex world. He had to reject the extra parts that could not fit into that perfect shape." "But he could not tolerate that. He sought a perfect shape, but still wanted to save the extra parts. All he knows is that the Einzberns told him the Holy Grail is a legitimate miracle that could grant any wish, and he had little reason to doubt them considering they could demonstrate their sorcery trait with wish-granting (which is basically the ability to cast things without the knowledge of the magic itself). So basically he believed that such wish is possible with the demonstration, with the amount of power the Holy Grail collects, because the system was suppose to create a miracle, and even in the strict case the Einzbern would be able to give his wish a proper form with their sorcery traits. Basically Kiritsugu expected a miracle, because that was what was promised. But when he found out the grail was corrupted, limited in power and malicious it is, he rejected it. quote:"I didn't wish for something like this! I wanted some other method... that's why I had no choice but to rely on a miracle..." Fate/Zero Anime Visual Guide II - Commentary: Episode 24 "The Last Command Seal", p.166" posted:Narita: Since the Holy Grail itself was only a clump of magical energy, wishing for "Saving the World" without specifying the method would not work. If Kiritsugu had no power or wealth, but knew "the method of Saving the World", it may be possible for the Grail to carry it out.... Kiritsugu was presented with such a vision of "what would happened if the World was saved" because Kiritsugu only knew of "sacrificing few for the benefit of many". However, since the Grail at this time was tainted by Angra Mainyu, Kiritsugu was presented with the most malicious imagery of his "saved World". And even if he didn't participate the in Holy Grail war/ritual, Irisviel would still die because that her role as the grail vessel. The corrupted grail would still cause mass destruction, and very likely wipe out humans if the ritual was completed since it is in wish granting mode (basically because no matter what, all wishes are interpreted as wishing for humanity's destruction because of all the curses and ill will carved in to Angra Mainyu)
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Jun 3, 2015 16:34
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Is Angra Mainyu something I'm supposed to know about it I've only watched zero?
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Jun 3, 2015 20:40
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no
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Jun 3, 2015 20:42
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Reported.
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Jun 3, 2015 20:55
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You guys are getting the wrong idea about this character, now let me back up some of what I'm saying with stuff we can't talk about because it doesn't come up until HF. This is totally a reasonable verbal exchange.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:46
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Surprisingly Dope posted:Is Angra Mainyu something I'm supposed to know about it I've only watched zero? Angra Mainyu was definitely mentioned in the F/Z LN. And there was multiple direct indications of the presence in the LN and the anime.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:45
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Randomzx posted:Angra Mainyu was definitely mentioned in the F/Z LN. And there was multiple direct indications of the presence in the LN and the anime. It's never explicitly described and therefore is off limits for this thread. We were shown that there's something within the grail, but that's it. Also you can figure all that out without knowing anything about it. Hell, even I didn't know what that was until now, and yet you superfluously explained exactly my read of Kiritsugu. Except for saying that Kiritsugu isn't going for utilitarianism, because you are contradicting yourself there.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:54
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Randomzx posted:Angra Mainyu was definitely mentioned in the F/Z LN. And there was multiple direct indications of the presence in the LN and the anime. Just something I want to add to the post. Randomzx posted:And even if he didn't participate the in Holy Grail war/ritual, Irisviel would still die because that her role as the grail vessel. The corrupted grail would still cause mass destruction, and very likely wipe out humans if the ritual was completed since it is in wish granting mode (basically because no matter what, all wishes are interpreted as wishing for humanity's destruction because of all the curses and ill will carved in to Angra Mainyu) This goes way back to a comment I made earlier comparing Kiritsugu to Kariya, that both of them wanted very good things and it got twisted somewhere down the line and ended up in a very bad place. Also, just gonna add that if Kiritsugu was a true hero who wanted to save people, he wouldn't view sacrificing his wife as an acceptable outcome and would try to save her from her fate. I imagine part of the reason he instills such impossible ideas as "Save Everyone" into Shirou is looking back at how he just viewed his wife as a sacrificial pawn and didn't even try to save her. Further (Fate route spoilers, really just putting this in spoiler tags to be safe this has to be fair game at this point in UBW) It's hardly impossible for the Holy Grail shell to survive the Grail War as Ilya survives in the Fate route. There's a reason that Shirou accomplishes these things and Kiritsugu couldn't. EDIT: ViggyNash posted:It's never explicitly described and therefore is off limits for this thread. We were shown that there's something within the grail, but that's it. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 06:07
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ViggyNash posted:It's never explicitly described and therefore is off limits for this thread. We were shown that there's something within the grail, but that's it. No, I stated that Kiritsugu didn't agree with his own methods, he's driven by his fear of the consequence if he doesn't do anything. But he still doesn't accept utilitarianism, hence the search for the miracle.You just skimmed my post.
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Jun 4, 2015 06:12
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Randomzx posted:No, I stated that Kiritsugu didn't agree with his own methods, he's driven by his fear of the consequence if he doesn't do anything. But he still doesn't accept utilitarianism, hence the search for the miracle.You just skimmed my post. This is one of those show/don't tell things. He says he doesn't believe in utilitarianism and that he hates the methods he uses (and really that just means he's human), but at the end of the day it's what he's gonna do and it is what he was gonna continue doing if the Holy Grail didn't show him the absurd logical extreme of his methods and laugh in his face. EDIT: I mean someone can say that they don't believe that statistics is a viable method of solving problems and they hate statistics but if they only use statistics to solve every problem they're faced with, what do you expect people to say? What's actually going on here? Twiddy fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 06:17
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Twiddy posted:I mean you're right, the thing is that, ultimately, this doesn't particularly change that his core methodology for trying to help make the world a better place is repeatedly killing the bad guys. Even if he doesn't like it, it's still what he practices. It's a bit further telling that he doesn't go for a better method. Except there are no actual "better methods" because the world complex enough that you'll always create situations that makes things worse unexpectedly or turn out completely different. It is the reason the countries still have violent disputes, tries to discredit each other, why politics is still a powder keg for everbody, why everybody constantly think other people all got wrong ideas. Kiritsugu just goes for the methods that both insures success and reduces chances and wild card consequences to a minimum with little emphasis on honor or morality. And as described in the commentary it is the corrupted grail that purposely show the worst way the wish would be accomplished, which means even your wish using the "better methods" would be mutated to be just as horrifying, because that what the end result of the corrupted grail will always force. And as mentioned before he was convinced there was a path to the miracle by the Einzbern demonstration of their sorcery trait, which would also help to shape his wish. Especially since the Einzbern themselves deeply believed in the miracle of the grail system to constantly pursue the miracle for more than a thousand years as described by Kotomine. Randomzx fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 06:36
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Randomzx posted:Except there are no actual "better methods" because the world complex enough that you'll always create situations that makes things worse unexpectedly or turn out completely different. It is the reason the countries still have violent disputes, tries to discredit each other, why politics is still a powder keg for everbody, why everybody constantly think other people all got wrong ideas. This is half true. I don't think Kiritsugu could have accomplished what he wanted even with an uncorrupted Grail, because what he wanted wasn't specific enough. The Grail has essentially unlimited energy but needs a will to direct it in order to accomplish something. Kiritsugu doesn't know how to create world peace because, as you noted, world peace is hard. And I don't think Kiritsugu's way of doing things is optimal even by his own criteria of judgment. I think he's irrationally biased toward solutions that involve killing people, due to being placed in a situation where killing his father actually was the sensible thing to do at a young age. He sees killing Kayneth and Sola-Ui as the sensible decision because two people's lives are worth even a small increase in the chance of winning the Grail (which he sees as an infinite utility generator, even though, as I've just noted, it was only an infinite power generator). He misses the possibility that Saber's reaction will actually decrease his chances of winning. I don't think the basic principle of trying to care about everyone and not just people you know personally is wrong, and sometimes you have to make hard decisions, but Kiritsugu has gotten so focused on the hard decisions that he ends up repressing the compassion that's supposed to underlie his course of action in the first place.
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Jun 4, 2015 07:01
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Randomzx posted:Except there are no actual "better methods" because the world complex enough that you'll always create situations that makes things worse unexpectedly or turn out completely different. It is the reason the countries still have violent disputes, tries to discredit each other, why politics is still a powder keg for everbody, why everybody constantly think other people all got wrong ideas. quote:And as described in the commentary it is the corrupted grail that purposely show the worst way the wish would be accomplished, which means even your wish using the "better methods" would be mutated to be just as horrifying, because that what the end result of the corrupted grail will always force. EDIT: ^^^ This guy gets it a lot better. * I feel like I should get more specific because I'm really starting to doubt the quality of education a lot of people get. Don't just look at what the Grail does and the in-universe justification for what happens, ask why. Ask why, as a narrative piece, the grail functions as it does. Ask what this might say about the rest of the story and the world (the REAL one, not the Nasuverse). Also ask yourself, what is Kiritsugu's journey. What is his character, what are his flaws. How do his flaws and character play into how the Holy Grail War plays out. How is his character presented in the work in question. How does the end result come about from his character and flaws. Is this a consistent narrative piece, how, and why. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 07:01
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Randomzx posted:Except there are no actual "better methods" because the world complex enough that you'll always create situations that makes things worse unexpectedly or turn out completely different. It is the reason the countries still have violent disputes, tries to discredit each other, why politics is still a powder keg for everbody, why everybody constantly think other people all got wrong ideas. This is pretty terrifying logic and incredibly short-sighted. Better methods would be realizing all those complex situations are probably unique enough to warrant their own solution instead of taking the blunt tool of "murder bad guys" to every single one. What you're proposing is at best the most expedient solution, except it'd be pretty foolish to even accept it as a solution in the vast majority of situations, since it's working from the faulty premise that there's black and white bad and good guys who can be separated into those who should live and those who should die to protect the former. It's extremely childish logic. I'd say it's pretty easy to argue Kiritsugu was wrong all along and likely caused way more problems than he solved using his methods even if they weren't explicitly shown. I mean the ultimate point to his arc was that his way of thinking was distorted.
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Jun 4, 2015 07:09
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Yasser Arafatwa posted:This is pretty terrifying logic and incredibly short-sighted. I am happy with the knowledge that Random probably isn't in a position of actual power. EDIT: Just because this example has been bouncing back and forth in my mind a lot, there's a lot of fun compare and contrast you can do with TAS Batman and Kiritsugu, since they occupy a very similar space in trying to deal with some problems that are super hard to deal with coming from a malicious core (unfortunately, I'm not familiar with most other Batman works to compare those). A lot of what's presented in TAS Batman shows a few flaws in Kiritsugu's methods. I think the most telling one (and the one I liked the most when watching the show) is that just about every villain ion TAS' Batman aren't just some rear end in a top hat, they're a relatively normal person who has driven themselves to villainy due to circumstances beyond their control. In almost every case, the real bad guy isn't the villain of the week, it's Gotham City itself whose evil machinations consistently output the circumstances which create these villains. Batman purely does damage control on these outputs, which is one of the core reasons that murder isn't his usual goal. Murder wouldn't actually fix the problem at all. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 07:20
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Twiddy posted:Are you serious? Additionally, ideas were always based on controlled scenarios and concept, along with the limitations of human mind and biases. And in the end the methods they think is better is more about what their bias was, what they value, whether they want to conform to society, and what loss they'll be fine accepting. In Kiritsugu's case, he's more concerned by the risks and worst case scenario that most stuff are preferrable to those possibilities. quote:Stop focusing on mechanical details and focus on how stories work. The significant point of that scene was to show Kiritsugu that the grail cannot provide his miracle, that the prescene is malicious (and hence why he would try to destroy the grail), how he truly wasn't ready to sacrifice everything despite what his methods would have demanded. And how his sacrifices and mercilless actions was in vain and he had no clear vision of how to 'save the world'.
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Jun 4, 2015 07:48
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Randomzx posted:People over the ages were always convinced that they had the better methods that they never agree with each other or changed enough that it no longer resemble the ideal. Randomzx posted:You are just viewing the scene as part of your confirmation bias that utilatarianism would always end up bad no matter what. Despite knowing the corrupted grail always turns any vision to genocide. So no, I'm viewing the scene from the perspective of the story itself, within the themes of the story itself, and connecting it. In a good story everything is connected and flows together. EDIT: I think it's hilarious that from your post it sounds like you think I'm some peace-loving idealistic hippy when I'm a highly educated person with family members in very important positions in hospitals and corporations. I have a nice well-developed idea of what causes problems and how you actually go about fixing them (since this is usually critical to keeping a group of any kind together) and base destructive methods aren't useful. I think one of the most important lessons I remember having is that combat is the last resort in war and only comes from a complete breakdown in communication. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 07:57
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Yasser Arafatwa posted:This is pretty terrifying logic and incredibly short-sighted. You are misunderstanding what I was saying. I was talking about there isn't any methods that are solutions to every problem, and that they easily could create unexpected problems too because of how human nature works. And as I mentioned those are based what their bias was, what they value, whether they want to conform to society, and what loss they'll be fine accepting. When I was talking about Kiritsugu's methods, I was talking about the factor he only cares about, which was mainly about try to stop the worst case scenario. Which is why he chose to kill Kayneth and his partner rather than risk them making another contract.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:02
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Twiddy posted:Stop spouting nihilistic drivel as an excuse for why Kiritsugu's points should be correct rather than focusing on ways to solve problems like other people are. You are completely missing the drat point, it not about being correct. It is about the methods being based on values, which means it will always clash with some people. All I am saying about Kiritsugu's methods is that his priorities in the consequences is why he doesn't practice other methods.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:07
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Randomzx posted:You are completely missing the drat point, it not about being correct. It is about the methods being based on values, which means it will always clash with some people. Randomzx posted:Except there are no actual "better methods" because the world complex enough that you'll always create situations that makes things worse unexpectedly or turn out completely different. It is the reason the countries still have violent disputes, tries to discredit each other, why politics is still a powder keg for everbody, why everybody constantly think other people all got wrong ideas. The reason I called it "nihilistic drivel" is because the core concept of what you were saying was giving up on finding a better solution. That's the core of nihilism (which I should add isn't actually an idea that any philosopher has ever endorsed), giving up after meeting a difficult problem.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:12
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Twiddy posted:EDIT: I think it's hilarious that from your post it sounds like you think I'm some peace-loving idealistic hippy when I'm a highly educated person with family members in very important positions in hospitals and corporations. I have a nice well-developed idea of what causes problems and how you actually go about fixing them (since this is usually critical to keeping a group of any kind together) and base destructive methods aren't useful. I think one of the most important lessons I remember having is that combat is the last resort in war and only comes from a complete breakdown in communication. No, it is just every time somebody was talking about Kiritsugu, you always without fail talk about the grail scene and how the vision was actually demonstrating what's wrong with utilatarianism like it is an actual legit authority. When it is clear that the corrupted grail would only every demonstrate the contrived worst case maliciously for any goal.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:20
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Randomzx posted:No, it is just every time somebody was talking about Kiritsugu, you always without fail talk about the grail scene and how the vision was actually demonstrating what's wrong with utilatarianism like it is an actual legit authority. When it is clear that the corrupted grail would only every demonstrate the contrived worst case maliciously for any goal. That said, I will instead go back and state that there's a reason that the Grail even had an end result to show him and why the story had him come face to face with that malicious outcome in the first place. Going back to how stories work, again. EDIT: Part of the problem here is that there's only so many goddamn words people can functionally use and it's difficult to apply a term to every single goddamn variant of every single belief system, so a lot of the time people (probably even myself at some point in the thread) just short handed it as utilitarianism even though there's other variants of the idea that aren't as destructive or flawed as Kiritsugu's. EDIT EDIT: Rereading the line you quoted statement, I guess I should add an addendum. Base destructive methods are useful, and they certainly have their place. Kiritsugu just ran into a problem of only ever having that hammer, so he decided to give his son some more tools. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 08:25
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I'm a little late but yeah, you basically get everything you need to know about Angra Mainyu except its name (which is really not a spoiler) from Fate/zero. It's in the Grail and it's an rear end in a top hat, both of which F/Z makes explicit.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:28
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