Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
Are you a
This poll is closed.
homeowner 39 22.41%
renter 69 39.66%
stupid peace of poo poo 66 37.93%
Total: 174 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Locked thread
NZAmoeba
Feb 14, 2005

It turns out it's MAN!
Hair Elf
Here's his speech this morning at the AGM: https://www.greens.org.nz/news/speeches/james-shaw-speech-2015-green-agm

quote:

Hi. I’m James.

It is a huge privilege to be speaking here today.

I want to start by paying tribute to Russel and all the work he’s done for our party and our cause.

There’s this cliché about politics that all political careers end in failure. And it’s because the leaders of most political parties always cling onto their power until someone snatches it from them.

The Green Party and Russel are different.

When Russel became Co-leader we were always hovering around the 5% threshold of political oblivion.

Now we’re the third largest party in Parliament.

Russel leaves with an awesome legacy and every day I spend as Co-leader will be spent endeavouring to live up to it.

I’d also like to pay tribute to Metiria Turei, my Co-leader.

Some people have asked me questions like ‘What will you do once you’re ‘leader’ of the Green Party?’

Well, mostly I’m going to do whatever Metiria tells me to do. Same as before.

I want to tell you a little about myself.

I’m forty-two years old.

I was born in Wellington. I grew up there.

My mother was a history teacher.

She looked after me on her own for the first twelve years of my life.

She was – and still is – a unionist and a feminist, and we lived in the Aro Valley, so it was inevitable that I would join the Green Party.

I first heard about the Greens when I was sixteen.

It was an election year – 1990 - and the candidates from the parties came to my school for a debate.

The candidates from the two main parties disagreed a lot. But not about values, or policy.

Mostly they disagreed because they both wanted to be MP for Wellington, and only one of them could be.

But there was also a candidate from the Green Party – which had only been founded that year.

His name was Gary Reese.

He talked about the need for politics to be bigger than it is.

He talked about the madness of treating the environment as a fuel for the economy, pretending that it is limitless.

Pretending that the destruction of the ecosphere, which sustains us, has no consequences.

He said that, instead of working within the current political system, we needed to change the system itself.

His words and his values inspired me to join the Green Party.


In 1991 I ran for Wellington City Council as a Green candidate. I door-knocked in Karori wearing a paisley waistcoat.

It didn’t go that well.

But in 1993 I was the campaign manager for the Victoria University Student’s Association and we ran a nationwide campaign to mobilise students to vote for MMP.

That went very well.

I worked alongside some of the giants of our movement.

People like Rod Donald, who taught me that politics is hard work, but that it’s worth it, because we can change the system.

We can win.

In 1997 I left New Zealand. I spent the next thirteen years working overseas, first in Brussels, then in London, and then just about everywhere.

I worked on poverty alleviation in the Andes and environmental protection in the Amazon.

I helped develop micro-hydroelectricity schemes in Indonesia and negotiated the protection of forestry preserves in the Himalayas.

My career has always been about bringing the values of the Green Party into the business world.

Since I returned to New Zealand in 2010 I’ve taken the skills and experience I learned in business and put them to work for the Green Party.

That’s what I want to do as Co-leader.

During this co-leadership campaign a lot of people from different sides of the political spectrum announced that I was the right-wing candidate.

I worked in the corporate sector in New York and London, so surely I must be a champion of capitalism and an enemy of socialism.

I was in London during the second half of 2008, during the global financial crisis, when the financial sectors of all of the advanced capitalist economies collapsed.

And then an amazing thing happened.

Their governments socialised them.

They decided that the financial sector – the heart of the free market capitalist system – would be guaranteed by the state.

When companies in that sector failed, they were rescued by the taxpayer.

This happened right here, in New Zealand.

The Government guaranteed deposits in all of our banks and financial institutions.

We spent over a billion dollars bailing out investors when some of those companies failed.

:siren:So I am not a hero of free market capitalism, because free market capitalism is dead. It has been dead for seven years. :siren:


The reality of politics in the wake of the global financial crisis is that there is no longer a struggle between capitalism and socialism.

What we have now is a hybrid model that takes some of the good but most of the bad elements of both systems.

We have an economy where profits are privatised but the risks - and the social and environmental costs - of that profit are socialised.

Paid for by the state. By the people.

It’s an economy based on rational irresponsibility.

It encourages people and companies to extract as much short term wealth as they can, from the environment or from their workers, regardless of the damage they cause, because they don’t have to pay for it.

Everyone else does. Now and for many generations.

There’s no name for this system that we now live under.

It’s not capitalism or neoliberalism.

And it’s not conservatism.


It’s not conservative to destroy all of your rivers and streams, and mine your oceans and national parks.

It is definitely not compassionate conservatism.

There’s nothing compassionate about the rapid extinction of our native species.

And it’s not compassionate or conservative to subsidise businesses to damage the atmosphere of the planet that we’re living on.

There is no name for this system.

Nobody speaks for it. Nobody voted for it.

It happens in the spaces between speeches and elections.

It happens behind closed doors or over dinner with lobbyists.

We have a political economy of friendly deals and whispers. Of overnight polling and focus groups.

The government is supposed to help those who need help the most, not those who need it the least.

Those who have little, not those who already have everything, and always want more, and more, and more.


My opposition to our current, deliberately broken economic system is not ideological. It is moral.

I oppose it because it is wrong.


Some economists and commentators tell us that the Green Party shouldn’t worry about social issues.

We should stop talking about the economy and focus on the environment.

That’s like saying ‘Stop complaining that your kitchen is on fire and focus more on your house.’

We talk about social and economic issues because we are an environmental party. All of these things are bound together.

We cannot talk about any of them without talking about all of them. To change one we must change them all.

Change. It’s a word that can be inspiring. It can be frightening.

I stood for Parliament and for Co-leader because I want to change things.

And some change is urgent.

Our climate can’t wait while politicians squabble over how to fix it.

I have been clear on the campaign trail that while I don’t support a formal coalition with National, I am very open to working with National where there is common cause.

Let us build common cause on climate change.


The Government is currently setting an emissions reduction target to take to the Paris climate talks.

The Green Party has just launched a climate campaign.

We should talk to each other rather than past each other, and agree on an ambitious target that New Zealanders can be proud off.

New Zealanders want their politicians to work together, and act on common interest.

Let’s find common interest on climate change. That is my challenge to John Key today.

Because if we don’t the future looks bleak.


Our cities and our regions and our environment are transforming, changing in radical ways, at terrifying rates.

One of the key aims of the Green Party should be to stop this radical change. To treasure and preserve what we have.

Instead of bringing in a strange new world, we want to protect and restore what we can of this one.

Three of the core Green Party values are sustainability, consensus-building and long-term thinking.

We will take these values into government with us.

The stability of that government and the long term consequences of its policies will be at the heart of any coalition agreement we enter into.

Any change we make will be careful and sustainable, and it will be made with future generations of New Zealanders in mind.

I also want to change the Green Party.

We need to grow.

We need to transition from an opposition party to a party of government.

But how do we do this without losing sight of who we are?

And how do we change so we can bring about the change we seek?

The Co-leaders in the Green Party can’t just wave our hands and demand that the party does our bidding.

The party is bigger than we are. So I’m going to talk about what I want us to do, and I hope I can convince you.

First. We need more of us.

I want to double the membership of our party this year and then double it again next year.

The National Party is a behemoth of money and skilled strategists and power.

The Green Party’s strength comes from its members, and if we’re going to contend with such a formidable adversary, we need a lot more of them.

And then twice that number again.

Second. We need to be more like modern New Zealand.

People vote for people they feel a connection to. If we aim to govern the country then we need to represent it.

That means more Maori candidates.

More Pasifika candidates.

More Asian New Zealanders.

More farmers.

More business people.

Doctors.

Lawyers.

More of almost everyone.

Although, National can keep their tobacco lobbyists.


Third. We need to modernise the way we run campaigns.

Ever since the 2008 Obama campaign there has been a revolution in the way political parties win elections.

Technology-based, data-driven but founded on communities, self-organisation, and on the passion of volunteers.

This type of campaigning is perfect for the Green Party. We used it in Wellington Central last year.

We need to use it in every electorate in the country in 2017.


Because my job now is to deliver on the promises I made to you to get here.

I know that not everyone here supported me, but I am accountable to all of you.

My job is to listen.

My job is to learn.

And my job is to change the party so that we can change the country.

The campaign to put the Greens in government in 2017 starts today.

Thank you.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

swampland
Oct 16, 2007

Dear Mr Cave, if you do not release the bats we will be forced to take legal action
I like him

exmarx
Feb 18, 2012


The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.
I don't think there was any question of him not being a free marketeer, but he's still a continuation of the de-radicalisation of the Greens (i.e. let's work entirely within this capitalist framework to solve problems that are caused and exacerbated by capitalism)

exmarx
Feb 18, 2012


The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.
Also last year I caught his eye when he was leafleting in Welly, and his hands fumbled so much that he had to jog backwards to give one to me.

Unimpressive :colbert:

klen dool
May 7, 2007

Okay well me being wrong in some limited situations doesn't change my overall point.
Cheese rolls. There is no other finer kiwi snack.

Moongrave
Jun 19, 2004

Finally Living Rent Free

Exclamation Marx posted:

Also last year I caught his eye when he was leafleting in Welly, and his hands fumbled so much that he had to jog backwards to give one to me.

Unimpressive :colbert:

Doesn't sound like someone you could have a beer with imo

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

Free market capitalism is dead, says the very wealthy consultant. Oh, I'm sure poor people will be so glad to hear that.

Butt Wizard
Nov 3, 2005

It was a pornography store. I was buying pornography.

fong posted:

Free market capitalism is dead, says the very wealthy consultant. Oh, I'm sure poor people will be so glad to hear that.

Kind of him to call it as at 2007/2008 too. Before then there was no corruption and the poors were happy and content.

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

I'd love to see what a politician that meets this thread's nitpicky benchmarks looks like.

Wait, that's an oxymoron.

Smash democracy.

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
He certainly knows what words will make people think he cares about the situation.

The Rabbi T. White
Jul 17, 2008





fong posted:

Free market capitalism is dead, says the very wealthy consultant. Oh, I'm sure poor people will be so glad to hear that.

As a big four consultant, their pay ain't that great till you reach the upper echelons.

Kathleen
Feb 26, 2013

Grimey Drawer
lol social investment bonds

Divorced And Curious
Jan 23, 2009

democracy depends on sausage sizzles

Slavvy posted:

I'd love to see what a politician that meets this thread's nitpicky benchmarks looks like.

Kathleen
Feb 26, 2013

Grimey Drawer

Slavvy posted:

I'd love to see what a politician that meets this thread's nitpicky benchmarks looks like.

Wait, that's an oxymoron.

Smash democracy.

actually democracy is cool and good

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
It's better than the other forms of govt.

But Social democracy kicks all kinds of rear end.

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

The Rabbi T. White posted:

As a big four consultant, their pay ain't that great till you reach the upper echelons.

My friend who works for BCG started on 90k out of uni, I think she's on 150k now after 4 years. Not exactly at the harsh end of things.

The Rabbi T. White
Jul 17, 2008





fong posted:

My friend who works for BCG started on 90k out of uni, I think she's on 150k now after 4 years. Not exactly at the harsh end of things.

I never said they make you destitute - your friend is certainly on the higher side of what they pay, by the way - but it's not like you're entirely breaking the bank on low 6 figures.

swampland
Oct 16, 2007

Dear Mr Cave, if you do not release the bats we will be forced to take legal action

Exclamation Marx posted:

I don't think there was any question of him not being a free marketeer, but he's still a continuation of the de-radicalisation of the Greens (i.e. let's work entirely within this capitalist framework to solve problems that are caused and exacerbated by capitalism)

I'm pretty sure any time the Green Party gets seats they are working within the capitalist framework to solve problems that are caused and exacerbated by capitalism

Moongrave
Jun 19, 2004

Finally Living Rent Free

Lancelot
May 23, 2006

Fun Shoe

fong posted:

My friend who works for BCG started on 90k out of uni, I think she's on 150k now after 4 years. Not exactly at the harsh end of things.

BCG pays shittons more than the big 4 (accounting firms: PwC, Deloitte, KPMG, EY). Those firms I think start you out on something like $35k.

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me



Exclamation Marx posted:

I don't think there was any question of him not being a free marketeer, but he's still a continuation of the de-radicalisation of the Greens (i.e. let's work entirely within this capitalist framework to solve problems that are caused and exacerbated by capitalism)
The Master's tools cannot dismantle the Master's house, which is exactly why I advocate for violent Marxist revolution of the proletariat instead of participating in society to make it better. If anything, I actively try to make society worse so that others can realise the only real option for change is not by democratic participation but through armed and violent resistance followed by systemic purges of the upper class.

El Pollo Blanco
Jun 12, 2013

by sebmojo

Ghostlight posted:

The Master's tools cannot dismantle the Master's house, which is exactly why I advocate for violent Marxist revolution of the proletariat instead of participating in society to make it better. If anything, I actively try to make society worse so that others can realise the only real option for change is not by democratic participation but through armed and violent resistance followed by systemic purges of the upper class.

Come now we all know, as citizens of the country that embraced Thatcherism with open arms, that society doesn't exist.

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!

Lancelot posted:

BCG pays shittons more than the big 4 (accounting firms: PwC, Deloitte, KPMG, EY). Those firms I think start you out on something like $35k.

Sounds about right.

dusty
Nov 30, 2004


Winston can't melt steel beams

exmarx
Feb 18, 2012


The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

swampland posted:

I'm pretty sure any time the Green Party gets seats they are working within the capitalist framework to solve problems that are caused and exacerbated by capitalism

What? I'm talking about the leadership's ideological shift in the past decade towards capitalism with a human face. Not at all hypocritical to work with parliamentary democracy (except arguably for Metiria, who claims to be an anarchist :iiam:)

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012

Ghostlight posted:

The Master's tools cannot dismantle the Master's house, which is exactly why I advocate for violent Marxist revolution of the proletariat instead of participating in society to make it better. If anything, I actively try to make society worse so that others can realise the only real option for change is not by democratic participation but through armed and violent resistance followed by systemic purges of the upper class.

This is all correct.

SurreptitiousMuffin
Mar 21, 2010

Ghostlight posted:

The Master's tools cannot dismantle the Master's house, which is exactly why I advocate for violent Marxist revolution of the proletariat instead of participating in society to make it better. If anything, I actively try to make society worse so that others can realise the only real option for change is not by democratic participation but through armed and violent resistance followed by systemic purges of the upper class.
I think I ran into you at every single student party in the greater Wellington region. Were you the white guy with glasses?

Kathleen
Feb 26, 2013

Grimey Drawer

Exclamation Marx posted:

What? I'm talking about the leadership's ideological shift in the past decade towards capitalism with a human face. Not at all hypocritical to work with parliamentary democracy (except arguably for Metiria, who claims to be an anarchist :iiam:)

i think in principle most green parties have anarchist leanings with their push for direct democracy and political decentralisation / municiplism

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me



It's so much easier to argue for violence from a privileged position that has never truly experienced it.

Cumslut1895
Feb 18, 2015

by FactsAreUseless

Ghostlight posted:

The Master's tools cannot dismantle the Master's house, which is exactly why I advocate for violent Marxist revolution of the proletariat instead of participating in society to make it better. If anything, I actively try to make society worse so that others can realise the only real option for change is not by democratic participation but through armed and violent resistance followed by systemic purges of the upper class.

and them we kill all the jews, right?

voiceless anal fricative
May 6, 2007

Ghostlight posted:

It's so much easier to argue for violence from a privileged position that has never truly experienced it.

Really? I mean there's definitely a group of super ideological privileged kids who are all for a violent socialist revolution, but otherwise a lot of the people who advocate violence are the ones who experience it themselves. It's not an automatically privileged position

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me



That was in response to SurreptitiousMuffin's question about a very specific demographic of people one would meet at Wellington parties that happen to be bespectacled white kids who would agree with the assertion that not only should you advocate violent revolution, but actively strive to make the underclass suffer in order to provoke it, and therefore I would expect them to fall under your group of super ideological privileged kids who are all for a violent socialist revolution and are, by "privileged" being part of the categorisation, are speaking from a privileged position and also I have not been entirely sincere about calling for violent socialist revolution or actively harming the underclass so definitely yes but no not really.

Does that answer your question?

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
I think it's more that whiny nerds tend not to realise that once you get a political party into power via murder and bloodshed (No matter how justified) it becomes rather difficult for the killing to stop.

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

Something I've never understood that maybe this thread might be able to answer/make fun of me for:

We nominally live in a democracy, as do many other countries with drastically different yet nonetheless theoretically democratic systems. Democracy is, AFAIK, a method for making decisions based on popular consensus rather than dictatorial randomness or whatever. The only way to do this thus far has been to elect people who (again, theoretically) stand for the policies that most closely fit popular consensus, which IMO is an incredibly crude method of modelling actual consensus but whatever.

If that's the case, why do heads of state/prime ministers/chancellors etc exist? How can one individual possibly represent the interests of everyone fairly? Why do we not have a ruling cabal of elected officials who work things out among themselves without having someone of higher rank in charge? Whether it be the head of the party with the most seats, or the presidential candidate with the most internal votes or whatever. Why do we still have a structure that ends with one guy/girl right at the top of a pyramid instead of a group of people? It makes no sense to me.

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
While the fellow at the top isn't all-powerful, having twelve or so fellows at the top with equal power and authority kinda kills the ability to make timely political decisions. You'd basically have a Cold War security council, with one half veto-ing the other half and accomplishing jack poo poo for the most part.

Since those at the top are people, with all the vested interests that implies, more or less no decisions regarding executive governance would be made.

The Sin of Onan
Oct 11, 2012

And below,
watched by eyes of steel
we dreamt

Slavvy posted:

Something I've never understood that maybe this thread might be able to answer/make fun of me for:

We nominally live in a democracy, as do many other countries with drastically different yet nonetheless theoretically democratic systems. Democracy is, AFAIK, a method for making decisions based on popular consensus rather than dictatorial randomness or whatever. The only way to do this thus far has been to elect people who (again, theoretically) stand for the policies that most closely fit popular consensus, which IMO is an incredibly crude method of modelling actual consensus but whatever.

If that's the case, why do heads of state/prime ministers/chancellors etc exist? How can one individual possibly represent the interests of everyone fairly? Why do we not have a ruling cabal of elected officials who work things out among themselves without having someone of higher rank in charge? Whether it be the head of the party with the most seats, or the presidential candidate with the most internal votes or whatever. Why do we still have a structure that ends with one guy/girl right at the top of a pyramid instead of a group of people? It makes no sense to me.

Why not go further? Why not just get rid of the idea of top ruler AND ruling council altogether, and have a direct democracy?

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I would imagine it's too much paperwork and would flood the citizenry with a lot of pointless choices. See the current Flag BS. Government of any size need some executive ability to make some decisions quickly. A ruling council would be a fair compromise to the current executive and greatly soften Face based politics. The concern with it is that decisions made might worse as they will be by function compromises exacerbated by dilution of individual responsibility.

One of the things I would like to see is having politicians come under actual threat to their jobs like any other. The fuckers are virtually unfireable.

Moongrave
Jun 19, 2004

Finally Living Rent Free
What if we had a patrician

SurreptitiousMuffin
Mar 21, 2010
Benevolent Dictator John Key.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Ratios and Tendency
Apr 23, 2010

:swoon: MURALI :swoon:


The prime minister isn't supposed to be a president/king position. He's the lead/organising minister of a group but it tends to regress back to a quasi ruler due to laziness and stupidity.

  • Locked thread