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Most fantasy is just Tolkien with extra misogyny. And if I find out someone likes A Song of Ice and Fire, I lose respect for them as a person.
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May 31, 2015 03:49
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Screaming Idiot posted:Most fantasy is just Tolkien with extra misogyny. And if I find out someone likes A Song of Ice and Fire, I lose respect for them as a person.
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May 31, 2015 03:55
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Screaming Idiot posted:Most fantasy is just Tolkien with extra misogyny. And if I find out someone likes A Song of Ice and Fire, I lose respect for them as a person. 
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May 31, 2015 03:56
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Hi-five, AO
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May 31, 2015 03:57
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Screaming Idiot posted:Most fantasy is just Tolkien with extra misogyny. And if I find out someone likes A Song of Ice and Fire, I lose respect for them as a person. The gently caress. You need better reading habits. There is a fuckton of fantasy that is not like that at all. Pick up some loving LeGuin or Octavia Butler.
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May 31, 2015 04:01
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IN MY EXTREMELY LIMITED AND JUVENILE OPINION, ALL OF THE AUTHORS IN A GENRE ARE DEFINED BY THIS POPULAR AUTHOR:
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May 31, 2015 04:05
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Benny the Snake posted:And "Game of Thrones" by extenstion? That's even worse. I can't remember the name of the author who said it, but in the book How to Write Sci-Fi and Fantasy (I think) there was an anecdote about a woman who was going to work with George RR Martin on a series of novels about people who live on floating islands and got around via artificial wings. She went on about Martin's ideas about how only men should be allowed to fly and women should be persecuted, and she then said something along the lines of, "If women can't be liberated in our imaginations and our stories, what hope do we have for real life?" That struck a chord with me. People defend George RR Martin as writing "historical" fantasy, but everything I've seen about it just shows that he's a huge, disgusting freak with more weird sex issues than Stephen King and Anne Macaffrey combined. His stories are full of sexual abuse, and while that behavior was sadly common in feudal eras, Martin writes them with loving detail in his stories. I can't remember that lady author's name, but I like her message. If you're going to write fantasy, why make the same mistakes that have been made countless times before? And if you're determined to write "historical" fantasy full of primitive, evil people committing atrocities, why fetishize those atrocities? It seems to me that anything left to the imagination is infinitely more horrible than whatever's put on the page, no matter how many amputated dicks and raped children and "wetly glistening manhoods" you toss in (and toss off to). In short, gently caress Martin and gently caress everyone who wants to be like Martin. I'd rather remain unknown and unread than be like him, because I'm sick and tired of fantasy and sci-fi being the refuge of backwards shitlords who think the presence of dragons makes the objectification of women is a-okay.
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May 31, 2015 04:15
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but seriously though, women are pretty inferior.
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May 31, 2015 04:17
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crabrock posted:but seriously though, women are pretty inferior. it takes longer to say the word woman, because they are slower at doing things. symbolism
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May 31, 2015 04:26
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crabrock posted:IN MY EXTREMELY LIMITED AND JUVENILE OPINION, ALL OF THE AUTHORS IN A GENRE ARE DEFINED BY THIS POPULAR AUTHOR: BY BEING POPULAR MAYBE HE IS REPRESENTING THE GENRE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE I GUESS?? IDK "I asked about a good fantasy series and my friend suggested this Game of Thrones book, and it's really gross and creepy. If that's what most fantasy books are like, I think I'll pass." JuniperCake posted:The gently caress. You need better reading habits. There is a fuckton of fantasy that is not like that at all. Pick up some loving LeGuin or Octavia Butler. Ursula LeGuin is a treasure and I love her work; one of the first fantasy books I read all the way through was A Wizard of Earthsea. Unfortunately, she does not represent the vast, vast majority of fantasy. Most fantasy is "White Guys doing Cool Things with/to Hot Chicks and also Video Games" and that's the sort of thing keeping the genre down. Earlier in this thread I expounded my new-found love of Terry Pratchett, and I can't restate that enough -- he was extremely progressive, managing to bring to light major societal issues while simultaneously weaving beautiful, hilarious stories. The world needs more Pratchetts and fewer Martins. Fantasy and sci-fi should be about the widening of horizons, not trodding over the same paths worn to the stone by wizards and hairy-footed midgets and grimdark ale-chugging murderers.
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May 31, 2015 04:28
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crabrock posted:but seriously though, women are pretty. you creep
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May 31, 2015 04:28
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But actually, there is nothing sexist about creating a fictional world in which women are oppressed. Literature can make a statement about the current times. For example, Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale. That is a book in which women are oppressed, but it is also a feminist work.
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May 31, 2015 04:28
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blue squares posted:it takes longer to say the word woman, because they are slower at doing things. symbolism a woman is a two letters better than a man
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May 31, 2015 04:29
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Is your ideal book in which there are no race or gender or age or religious, or any other kind of inequal differences? Should people stop writing books in which African-Americans experience hardships due to their skin color?
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May 31, 2015 04:36
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blue squares posted:But actually, there is nothing sexist about creating a fictional world in which women are oppressed. Literature can make a statement about the current times. For example, Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale. That is a book in which women are oppressed, but it is also a feminist work. Oh, I agree. The problem isn't that women are oppressed in the work, but in that they generally stay oppressed, and how often that oppression is ignored or used to titillate. In another thread someone discussed a scene of Martin's about a man raping his new wife while a recently castrated rival (also a rapist, apparently?) is forced to watch, and the castrated man is supposed to be the one the audience sympathizes, and not the poor woman being used as a plaything and tool for political gain. What I'm saying is that the oppression in a work of fiction isn't necessarily misogyny, but its fetishization is, and the problem only compounds when it becomes a labored theme in that artist's work. I'm sorry if I'm overly critical of this, but what few friends I have who read have recently gotten into Game of Thrones and they won't shut up about the books and they're getting intensely creepy about it.
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May 31, 2015 04:37
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Screaming Idiot posted:Oh, I agree. The problem isn't that women are oppressed in the work, but in that they generally stay oppressed, and how often that oppression is ignored or used to titillate. In another thread someone discussed a scene of Martin's about a man raping his new wife while a recently castrated rival (also a rapist, apparently?) is forced to watch, and the castrated man is supposed to be the one the audience sympathizes, and not the poor woman being used as a plaything and tool for political gain. Oh I actually do see what you are saying now. Thanks for clarifying.
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May 31, 2015 04:38
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Screaming Idiot posted:Most fantasy is "White Guys doing Cool Things with/to Hot Chicks and also Video Games" and that's the sort of thing keeping the genre down. I've read hundreds of fantasy novels; I'm odd enough to keep track, so I know that for fact. I deny this claim. Jennifer Roberson, Amanda Downum, Diane Duane, Mercedes Lackey, Melanie Rawn, Tad Williams, Michelle Sagara/Sagara West, Pamela Dean, Anne McCaffery, C. J. Cherryh, Julian May, Barbara Hambly, Catherynne Valente, Diana Wynne Jones, Holly Lisle, Tanya Huff--these writers have female protagonists, non-white protagonists, or both; they have precious little to do with video games; they're also names I came up with from scanning my own shelves, so blame the low proportion of male names there on my taste, not the genre. A good library or bookstore would have many more. The genre has its flaws, but dismissing most fantasy is short-sighted. Kaishai fucked around with this message at 04:43 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 04:39
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I'm having real difficulty feeling like I can envision the totality of a novel as I write it. I have plot milestones that I want to reach, and I can figure out what's going to bring the characters to those points but I often feel like there's a superfluousness to the point of getting there. This is something that has plagued all of my writing. When I wrote academic essays I'd be told I hadn't given enough time to something. I'd argue that all of that was covered by what I already said, and when I asked I was told I had covered it, but the reader still wanted it all laid out for them. I think that often a totemic moment should stand for something without belabouring everything else. I know it doesn't work like that, and when I ask people did they understand the significance of an event I've written they'll say the did but they still wanted what I feel is unnecessary detail. I know the journey is important, I appreciate that, but I also feel somethings are better left unsaid. And I'm finding it hard to balance those two views.
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May 31, 2015 04:39
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My problem with this argument is that Song of Ice and Fire has SO MANY memorable, awesome female characters. Many female and male characters in that series have horrendous things happen to them, and there's a very equal number of male/female characters that do really cool stuff or play important roles in the plot. Reading those books for the first time like ten years ago, Daenerys was my favorite character; I looked most forward to her chapters. It didn't matter that she was a woman or not, she was just an awesome character. I also really like Brienne, who breaks all kinds of dumb tropes and is a character you really look up to even though she's not your typical "beautiful and also super strong/badass lady." I feel like that series did such a good job of just making characters of both genders carrying the plot forward. Compare to something like Wheel of Time, which also has a lot of female characters, but all the female characters are gossiping and doing other stereotypical-trope-type things. Then there is all the "golden age" scifi, where women aren't even there. They are totally erased more or less. Or if they're there, they are a love interest that has zero importance to the plot. When I read these kind of stories (A Mote in God's Eye, anything by Asimov, etc.) I feel this egregious erasure there and it actually ruins the story for me. I can't really understand reading the book where a guy gets his dick cut off and is tortured nonstop, and then reading about a woman getting raped and being like, "Oh, man! This is problematic as gently caress, I'm putting this book down!" edit: And no, in the show you are supposed to feel bad for Sansa (girl being raped) AND for Theon. angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 04:46 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 04:43
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Kaishai posted:I've read hundreds of fantasy novels; I'm odd enough to keep track, so I know that for fact. I deny this claim. Jennifer Roberson, Amanda Downum, Diane Duane, Mercedes Lackey, Melanie Rawn, Tad Williams, Michelle Sagara/Sagara West, Pamela Dean, Anne McCaffery, Julian May, Barbara Hambly, Catherynne Valente, Diana Wynne Jones, Holly Lisle, Tanya Huff--these writers have female protagonists, non-white protagonists, or both; they have precious little to do with video games; they're also names I came up with from scanning my own shelves, so blame the low proportion of male names there on my taste, not the genre. A good library or bookstore would have many more. Doesn't Anne Macaffrey have a situation where one character's riding-dragon mates another character's riding dragon, so now the first character can claim the other character as his own without her approval? Mrenda posted:I'm having real difficulty feeling like I can envision the totality of a novel as I write it. I have plot milestones that I want to reach, and I can figure out what's going to bring the characters to those points but I often feel like there's a superfluousness to the point of getting there. This is something that has plagued all of my writing. When I wrote academic essays I'd be told I hadn't given enough time to something. I'd argue that all of that was covered by what I already said, and when I asked I was told I had covered it, but the reader still wanted it all laid out for them. I think that often a totemic moment should stand for something without belabouring everything else. I know it doesn't work like that, and when I ask people did they understand the significance of an event I've written they'll say the did but they still wanted what I feel is unnecessary detail. Write the scenes you want, put off the ones that don't, and find a way to connect them as time goes on. That's the advice I've read in this in thread, and it works for a lot of people for what that's worth. And add as much detail as you like in the first draft, then add or preferably remove some as you go through later drafts. A first draft is like carving a hunk of rock from a wall, with subsequent drafts cutting away the dross and chiseling in the features and adding polish until you have your ideal carving.
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May 31, 2015 04:48
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Screaming Idiot posted:Doesn't Anne Macaffrey have a situation where one character's riding-dragon mates another character's riding dragon, so now the first character can claim the other character as his own without her approval? Depends which book you're reading since she walked that back later in the series, but basically yes. Pern has issues. It isn't all she wrote, though! And within the Pern setting, Dragonsong and Dragonsinger exist, telling the story of a young woman who defies her family and culture to excel in a field that had been reserved for men. They're also fun to read.
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May 31, 2015 04:58
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Ugh I told myself I wouldn't take the bait, because I think genre debates are almost always pointless and dumb, but I'm curious what qualifications you are using for sci-fi that aren't so inclusive that basically anything could land beneath its umbrella. I've written an embarrassing amount of words about BM for conferences, and while I think there are a ton of labels that you could apply to it, I'm not seeing sci-fi. A group of men accompanied by an archon or some other gnostic being colonize a primordial landscape with acts of escalating violence in an attempt to construct a civilization that can enact the archon's project of total suzerainty. The inner hesitation of the kid becomes pivotal to the success or failure of their project. Genre debates are in fact pointless and dumb. I love Blood Meridian a shitload. I just think it's cool that the story is an enormous argument about the fundamental logic of existence, incarnated as a Western. The prose is happy to trace chains of causality back to the (implicit) Big Bang. The characters wonder explicitly about life on other worlds. Both the imagery and the narrative veer into the numinous or the infernal with a grace that genre fiction should aspire to. Blood Meridian does not concern itself with the 'rules' of its world. It simply is. It's super cool. I only call it science fiction because it's what I wish more science fiction and fantasy would try to be.
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May 31, 2015 05:03
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Screaming Idiot posted:That's even worse. lol
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May 31, 2015 05:46
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angel opportunity posted:My problem with this argument is that Song of Ice and Fire has SO MANY memorable, awesome female characters. This. I mean I could write a big effort post, but scridiot you're a buffoon so what's the point.
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May 31, 2015 05:49
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Screaming Idiot posted:
How many counter examples would I have to bring up for you to change Most to Some? Because I feel you are doing a discredit to the authors who do interesting work, and don't have awful, derivative, opinions. Not everyone in fantasy is Terry Goodkind. Instead of saying the genre is mostly garbage, you should celebrate the authors who do work that you feel is good. Some of them are well known like Pratchett and LeGuin but there are plenty who aren't as well known but should be. I feel a better use of time would be to focus on bringing more attention to good authors, rather than kinda washing your hands of genre and just ignoring that these other authors even exist. It's why I mentioned James Tiptree Jr (who btw had a crazy life that is almost too much to believe, her biography is a really great read) who did a lot of really engaging and heartfelt work. Tiptree isn't as well known as LeGuin or other golden age/new wave people and deserves more attention than she gets, imo. If we want to bring more contemporary authors into this , (and we can make this list super long if you like) you could try some Catheryenne Valente, Octavia Butler, Neil Gaiman, or Susana Clark for starters. Life is short, and there is some good work out there. Read it. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:01 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 05:58
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Screaming Idiot posted:Doesn't Anne Macaffrey have a situation where one character's riding-dragon mates another character's riding dragon, so now the first character can claim the other character as his own without her approval? Look up how SCRUM/Iterative Design work in software development. It's helped me a lot in the first few drafts in terms of cranking out content. Basically the way I've been doing things is Iteration 1 These are my characters This is the basic plot. This is them moving towards their goal New Character introduced here More motivations explained These are some cool scenes I have planned Here's how I want things to end. All of this is in a really loose narrative. Then I read through that, figure out what's missing plot/character wise. Then I throw on overwrite and go through and turn it into prose. Read through it again and figure out what I'm missing/what can be cut. RANDOM DISCLAIMER I've done this with a few spec/stage scripts and am working on bringing it into the post-apocalyptic style novel I am writing. It worked REALLY well for the scripts, the transition to prose hasn't been as smooth and I'm still working out the kinks/figuring out what I would change.
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May 31, 2015 06:22
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If you go out of your way to look out for the niche things to be offended by and just paint the subject matter with a blanket "offensive" paint without looking at it from various angles, you probably do not deserve to read.
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May 31, 2015 07:52
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I wanna hear more about Stephen King's ''weird sex issues.''
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May 31, 2015 09:42
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ravenkult posted:I wanna hear more about Stephen King's ''weird sex issues.'' I really don't. Is this really the right thread to listen to him blather about this bullshit? Blergh.
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May 31, 2015 10:52
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ravenkult posted:I wanna hear more about Stephen King's ''weird sex issues.'' Do we really need to elaborate when he wrote that one loving scene in It. 
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May 31, 2015 12:04
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I think there's actually an argument to be made that Ice and Fire gives a lot of attention to the damage the world's misogyny is doing to Westerosi culture in general and the characters in it, men and women both, in particular. There are male characters who don't fit the patriarchal norm who are ruined by it. There are women who don't fit the norm who are variously corrupted and destroyed by it. I don't think I'd go so far as to call it feminist, but at least Martin seems to appreciate the idea that pseudo-historical misogyny was completely hosed up.
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May 31, 2015 12:16
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HopperUK posted:I think there's actually an argument to be made that Ice and Fire gives a lot of attention to the damage the world's misogyny is doing to Westerosi culture in general and the characters in it, men and women both, in particular. There are male characters who don't fit the patriarchal norm who are ruined by it. There are women who don't fit the norm who are variously corrupted and destroyed by it. I don't think I'd go so far as to call it feminist, but at least Martin seems to appreciate the idea that pseudo-historical misogyny was completely hosed up.
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May 31, 2015 12:55
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HopperUK posted:I think there's actually an argument to be made that Ice and Fire gives a lot of attention to the damage the world's misogyny is doing to Westerosi culture in general and the characters in it, men and women both, in particular. There are male characters who don't fit the patriarchal norm who are ruined by it. There are women who don't fit the norm who are variously corrupted and destroyed by it. I don't think I'd go so far as to call it feminist, but at least Martin seems to appreciate the idea that pseudo-historical misogyny was completely hosed up. And then you have Baelish. Who says gently caress all that noise I don't need gender roles just power, and people to gently caress with.
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May 31, 2015 13:01
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Welcome to Goodreads: Tween years.
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May 31, 2015 15:50
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Jun 1, 2015 02:51
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scridiot remember that time in irc when I said you were pretty alright i think i was wrong
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Jun 1, 2015 02:53
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We made it over a year between "Fantasy is all Tolkien Fan-Fiction" discussions!  Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Riftwar, Dragonlance, and Sword of Shannara are all 30+ years old. They might be what you think of when you think "fantasy," but they are not representative of the current fantasy market. There are plenty of fantasy novels that are not Tolkien fan-fiction-- in fact probably most of what is being put out today. Guess I'll add to this: Game of Thrones is not actually the only fantasy series being published today, and so one cannot make arguments about "all fantasy" based purely on GoT.
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Jun 1, 2015 05:09
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NaNoWriMo... Has it helped any Goons? I'm debating doing it, have a lot of planned out/plotted stuff that needs to be turned into prose but is currently scribbles and flow charts in a notebook that I think would be perfect for this. 50k words no editing is a little more than 1500 words per day in a 30 month sprint? It seems like a reasonable goal.
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Jun 1, 2015 10:36
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SkaAndScreenplays posted:NaNoWriMo... I think its helpfulness REALLY varies. I did nano back in 2007 with hardly an outline, and most of what I wrote didn't work at all and if I were to go back and fix it, most of what I wrote would be tossed into the garbage. On the first other hand, parts of what I wrote, and the seed of the idea, I am still happy with (though I haven't gone back to fix it). On the second other hand, turns out spewing out a bunch of stuff without regard to quality is the best way for me personally to get a first draft complete. I have to go back and edit the heck out of anything I wrote. I basically did Nano again this past month, writing 40k words to finish the first draft of a 60k romance novel. I had a much better idea of where the story was going and what needed to happen. Now the first draft is finished, and it still needs an insane amount of editing, but at least there is something to edit. If, like me, you are a stronger editor than first draft writer, it can be a useful way to get the first draft done. Also, try everything once. You don't actually stand to lose much by trying Nano. It's only a month. Very little time to invest in that kind of experiment in the long-run. Edit: I'll also add that while you can do Nano any month on your own, the community-feeling helps. If you are planning to do something like this for June, consider participating in the Long Walk thread for moral support: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3723315 Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 10:49
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Nano caused me to finally stop being scared of writing a long thing. It also got me moving and was good impetus to keep writing because there was a little gauge that filled up, which is apparently all I really need. A bar to fill in on a website. What I produced is kind of paper-thin and lacks subplots and a proper ending but is otherwise actually kind of okay.
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Jun 1, 2015 11:12
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