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LeJackal posted:Was the implementation deeply flawed, or do you just oppose the idea of limiting the police's ability to harass minorities? I think most of us oppose hiding behind 'why don't you care about minority rights' to push the loosest gun laws possible when we all know the only times in America when gun groups and politicians worked together to eagerly add restrictions to guns is when those same minorities had them.
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May 31, 2015 17:57
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LeJackal posted:Was the implementation deeply flawed, or do you just oppose the idea of limiting the police's ability to harass minorities? Minorities get gunned down for just holding a weapon in open-carry states, even if it's a toy gun and they're 12 years old, because it's understood that anyone darker than a manila folder will always be seen as a reasonable threat to a police officer's life. "Constitutional" carry is whites-only carry and everyone knows it.
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May 31, 2015 18:05
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If any of you are ever foggy on the concept of concern trolling, pushing an amendment to backdoor in constitutional carry while pretending to be concerned about minority impact is basically the Platonic ideal of it.
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May 31, 2015 19:08
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gatesealer posted:isn't it illegal to call for the death of elected officials? No, just the President.
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May 31, 2015 19:09
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gatesealer posted:isn't it illegal to call for the death of elected officials? Uh, what? He's saying they should be arrested, charged with treason and executed. How does that equate to trying to incite people into killing them? The dude is a whack-job for sure, but let's be real here.
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May 31, 2015 20:09
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zoux posted:If any of you are ever foggy on the concept of concern trolling, pushing an amendment to backdoor in constitutional carry while pretending to be concerned about minority impact is basically the Platonic ideal of it. Lets take a step back then; what is the issue with 'Constitutional Carry'? Which this isn't, by the by, as it still requires a permit. zoux posted:pretending to be concerned about minority impact You're the one cheering that changes that make it easier for cops to harass minorities. Why is giving the cops another excuse to instigate a conflict they can escalate a good thing?
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May 31, 2015 21:51
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LeJackal posted:Lets take a step back then; what is the issue with 'Constitutional Carry'? Which this isn't, by the by, as it still requires a permit. It's bad because it wouldn't have protected minorities from police harassment anyway. Cop wants you dead being black is all the excuse he needs.
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May 31, 2015 22:47
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Numlock posted:It's bad because it wouldn't have protected minorities from police harassment anyway. So its a 'perfection as the enemy of progress' situation here? Or rather a 'crab bucket' situation I would guess. "Cops are going to murder minorities anyway, we might as well make it as easy as possible." - This thread. This philosophy applied elsewhere posted:
LeJackal fucked around with this message at 22:57 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 22:52
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"Should we have some laws about restraining orders and shelters for domestic abuse victims?"
"Why bother? Those abusers will walk right through the restraining order and put their victim in intensive care."
"I have an awesome idea, lets enshrine in law protections against discrimination in the workplace!"
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LeJackal posted:Lets take a step back then; what is the issue with 'Constitutional Carry'? Which this isn't, by the by, as it still requires a permit. Here's what I'm not going to do: argue with you, an obvious and irritating troll.
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Jun 1, 2015 00:00
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zoux posted:Here's what I'm not going to do: argue with you, an obvious and irritating troll. Hey man don't shoot the messenger. Be mad at yourself for failing to have a rational basis for your opinions, not me for pointing it out.
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Jun 1, 2015 00:07
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LeJackal posted:So its a 'perfection as the enemy of progress' situation here? Or rather a 'crab bucket' situation I would guess. Open carry is for white rednecks to intimidate black people. Racial minorities will not be permitted to open carry regardless of what the law says, because cops will shoot them and say "that 12-year-old with a cap gun made me fear for my life" and not be indicted.
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Jun 1, 2015 00:23
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"Durr derp I eat poo!!!" - leJackel Wow I can type made up poo poo too...
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Jun 1, 2015 00:32
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VitalSigns posted:Open carry is for white rednecks to intimidate black people. Racial minorities will not be permitted to open carry regardless of what the law says, because cops will shoot them and say "that 12-year-old with a cap gun made me fear for my life" and not be indicted. If laws don't matter, why oppose or support them? Sounds like they are ultimately meaningless - so why celebrate if a certain law is or is not passed? Edit to clarify: I get that you are saying that cops are racist and may want to ignore the law, but if you take that train of thought on to the next station you will advocate for the removal of any protection under law that may be circumvented by bad actors. Pictured: White Rednecks intimidating black people.       
LeJackal fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 00:38
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The cops sure never murdered any black panthers. It sure was black nationalists threatening lawmakers who wouldn't pass open carry this session, not white criminals doing that. States sure dont have a long history of immediately suppressing open carry when anyone other than white lynch mobs starts exercising that right. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 00:45
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enraged_camel posted:Uh, what? He's saying they should be arrested, charged with treason and executed. How does that equate to trying to incite people into killing them? you know, except the part where he literally says "What do you think gets their attention more after they go against the people? Some phone calls? or actual liberty or death?"
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Jun 1, 2015 00:52
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Seriously, it seems like your only argument is 'laws protecting [x] may be ignored, therefore never try to protect [x].' Which is lovely, because you could apply it to anything.VitalSigns posted:The cops sure never murdered any black panthers. They sure did, and the only shame is that the Panthers didn't take more pigs with them . FTP. VitalSigns posted:It sure was black nationalists threatening lawmakers who wouldn't pass open carry this session, not white criminals doing that. I keep forgetting that rights are assigned value extrinsically by how popular their supporters or targets are. VitalSigns posted:States sure dont have a long history of immediately suppressing open carry when anyone other than white lynch mobs starts exercising that right. "When oppressed, roll over and give up." - Vitalsigns
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Jun 1, 2015 00:53
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LeJackal posted:Seriously, it seems like your only argument is 'laws protecting [x] may be ignored, therefore never try to protect [x].' Which is lovely, because you could apply it to anything. Dude chill the gently caress out-me as an actual minority in Texas
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Jun 1, 2015 01:05
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gatesealer posted:you know, except the part where he literally says "What do you think gets their attention more after they go against the people? Some phone calls? or actual liberty or death?" Your interpretation of that sentence is rather... liberal.
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Jun 1, 2015 01:07
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SirKibbles posted:Dude chill the gently caress out-me as an actual minority in Texas I am pretty chill, generally. Your insinuations that; A) I'm a "middle class" abled hetero-normative white cisgender male Judeo-Christian and, B) That the weight of one's arguments regarding logical consistency are dependent on the color of one's skin color/gender/etc, are both pretty wicked lovely and presumptuous. Still, I am more disappointed than upset, though.
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Jun 1, 2015 01:17
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The solution to police not uniformly applying the laws to all races is not to make the laws unenforceable. It is akin to saying we shouldn't let police pull people over for stop sign violations because that is often used as a reason to pull someone over for driving while black. Without the ability for an officer who sees someone carrying to ask for their CHL the law requiring a CHL to carry becomes useless and only those stopped for some other who are incidentally illegally open carrying will be caught. And guess what group of people get disproportionately stopped and checked for ID and outstanding warrants... So a no-stop rule won't stop police from picking on minorities open carrying as police intent on stopping and harassing have plenty of reasons for stopping someone and asking who they are already. Add in that Texas also has a requirement to ID yourself to a law enforcement officer and you have a situation where the Officer "saw him stumble and had reason to believe he might be PI" and calls in the ID which would pull up the CHL. What is needed is thorough reporting and constant monitoring of records of every police interaction including reasons given for it, actions taken, and the apparent ethnicity of the person(s) involved. That would let us know where the trouble is and start working to correct it.
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Jun 1, 2015 01:33
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Shifty Pony posted:The solution to police not uniformly applying the laws to all races is not to make the laws unenforceable. It is akin to saying we shouldn't let police pull people over for stop sign violations because that is often used as a reason to pull someone over for driving while black. Without the ability for an officer who sees someone carrying to ask for their CHL the law requiring a CHL to carry becomes useless and only those stopped for some other who are incidentally illegally open carrying will be caught. This is the first nonshit response to LeJackal's nonshit question. Thank you.
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Jun 1, 2015 02:03
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I don't give a poo poo about the minority part of this. I don't like people being permitted to openly display guns. It makes me nervous. I work a floor below some LEO, and the conversations they have in the elevator make me fear for anyone's safety should they come into contact with them.
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Jun 1, 2015 02:04
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LeJackal posted:I am pretty chill, generally. Where did I mention your race or your class in that post,gently caress if your going to troll at least be good at it or funny drat.
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Jun 1, 2015 02:04
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LeJackal posted:I keep forgetting that rights are assigned value extrinsically by how popular their supporters or targets are. You're ignoring how these things actually work in real life. If it were the Black Panthers agitating for Constitutional Carry, it wouldn't have even come up for debate in the legislature. If it became law, the minute racial minorities started using it to deter attacks or intimidate cops or racists, the governor would be calling up an emergency session to address the violence in our communities, create some common-sense regulations to protect the public safety, and clean out the dangerous elements from our neighborhoods, and it would pass with overwhelming support. You know this and I know this. If you just want to take your guns into chipotle or whatever because that's what you want to do, fine, that's your preference. But trying to convince us that liberals are the real racists, and the Tea Party is the true champion of the black man is just silly. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 02:11
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VitalSigns posted:Open carry is for white rednecks to intimidate black people. Racial minorities will not be permitted to open carry regardless of what the law says, because cops will shoot them and say "that 12-year-old with a cap gun made me fear for my life" and not be indicted.
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Jun 1, 2015 02:36
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Shifty Pony posted:The solution to police not uniformly applying the laws to all races is not to make the laws unenforceable. This provision wouldn't make the law unenforceable, though it certainly be argued to make a police officer's life a little more difficult. Kind of like how the pesky 4th Amendment makes it harder to enforce like all laws, from a certain point of view. Said POV being that 'laws get enforced' takes all precedence over every other consideration. Shifty Pony posted:It is akin to saying we shouldn't let police pull people over for stop sign violations because that is often used as a reason to pull someone over for driving while black. Without the ability for an officer who sees someone carrying to ask for their CHL the law requiring a CHL to carry becomes useless and only those stopped for some other who are incidentally illegally open carrying will be caught. Hrmm, no, it isn't. If a police officer just watched you blast through a stop sign then he/she has actually witnessed a crime and is stopping that person to give them the ticket. A better metaphor might be to say this is akin to barring police from stopping anybody walking on the sidewalk and demanding they produce the receipt for their shoes/jacket/whatever. The difference is that the second case is detention and investigation to determine illegality based on nothing but the theoretical possibility that a crime is in commission, i.e. no probable cause or suspicion. Other than the citizen being non-white. Though honestly, if somebody is packing heat and not doing anything otherwise criminal I don't see the point in shaking them down. Why are you wasting your time, pig? Isn't there a doughnut shop getting jacked you gotta get too? Shifty Pony posted:And guess what group of people get disproportionately stopped and checked for ID and outstanding warrants... So a no-stop rule won't stop police from picking on minorities open carrying as police intent on stopping and harassing have plenty of reasons for stopping someone and asking who they are already. Add in that Texas also has a requirement to ID yourself to a law enforcement officer and you have a situation where the Officer "saw him stumble and had reason to believe he might be PI" and calls in the ID which would pull up the CHL. Obviously the solution to the problem of cops having too many points of leverage to instigate a confrontation to facilitate their extrajudicial execution is to allow even more opportunities! "There is already a hole in the roof, why should I patch this new one?" Why don't we get rid of the stupid ID requirements too? I'm game. Shifty Pony posted:What is needed is thorough reporting and constant monitoring of records of every police interaction including reasons given for it, actions taken, and the apparent ethnicity of the person(s) involved. That would let us know where the trouble is and start working to correct it. Body cameras and more cops actually facing justice might help. Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I don't give a poo poo about the minority part of this. I don't like people being permitted to openly display guns. It makes me nervous. Your irrational emotional response to guns is no better basis for legislation than Bobby Hatesmuslim's pantshitting terror at the sight of a dude in a taqiyah. Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I work a floor below some LEO, and the conversations they have in the elevator make me fear for anyone's safety should they come into contact with them. Yeah, cops are dangerous and any flimsy excuse they have to force an interaction with you is a legitimate cause for fear. Dead serious. FTP VitalSigns posted:If you just want to take your guns into chipotle or whatever because that's what you want to do, fine, that's your preference. But trying to convince us that liberals are the real racists, and the Tea Party is the true champion of the black man is just silly. 
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Jun 1, 2015 03:07
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LeJackal posted:
It's not like the NRA and Ronald PBUH Reagan became abruptly and overwhelmingly pro-gun-control the moment the blacks expressed their constitutional right to bear arms, right?
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Jun 1, 2015 03:11
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Haha, holy poo poo you'd think Open Carry Texas would be a little more subtle about wanting armed white militia patrolling black neighborhoods
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Jun 1, 2015 03:20
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GreyjoyBastard posted:It's not like the NRA and Ronald PBUH Reagan became abruptly and overwhelmingly pro-gun-control the moment the blacks expressed their constitutional right to bear arms, right? Their racism does not detract from the intrinsic value of human rights. That is about as far as I can simplify it for you.
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Jun 1, 2015 04:10
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I'm a white male state's attorney. I don't fear the police. In fact I work with them. Loads of them are still dumb as poo poo. I don't like individuals on the street having the instantaneous power of life or death over others. It makes me nervous. I'm also not proposing legislation or suggesting this is a reason to support or oppose legislation. I simply shared my personal anecdote. I find that sometimes hearing others view points can help you understand how there are a variety of stances on an issue.
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Jun 1, 2015 04:58
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I'm a white male state's attorney. I don't fear the police. In fact I work with them. Loads of them are still dumb as poo poo. I don't like individuals on the street having the instantaneous power of life or death over others. It makes me nervous. How do you walk on the sidewalk knowing that at any moment someone may turn their steering wheel to one side and exercise the power of life or death on you?!  How dare they! After all, you're the states attorney, you decide who lives or dies - how arrogant to think a peasant (a peasant! maybe even one with different colored skin!) would deign intrude on your domain of determining death! Little people, amiright?  /sarcasm Naw, but seriously, you're so privileged and entrenched within the system that your opinions are essentially worthless.
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Jun 1, 2015 05:34
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LeJackal posted:How do you walk on the sidewalk knowing that at any moment someone may turn their steering wheel to one side and exercise the power of life or death on you?! Here's the LeJackal we all love, a frothy blend of every pissed of 12 year old on Tumblr and every terrified 90 year old NRA member.
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Jun 1, 2015 05:43
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I definitely think people who depend on their guns to transport them to work or to the store should be permitted to obtain a license and operate them in areas marked for the purpose as long as they're carrying liability insurance that meets the minimum standards necessary to pay for any damages they may cause to third parties. I think we can all agree that the benefits here are worth the risk, at least until we have a better way of transporting people than riding on guns.
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Jun 1, 2015 05:58
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Here's the LeJackal we all love, a frothy blend of every pissed of 12 year old on Tumblr and every terrified 90 year old NRA member. Hey, his concern trolling pushed the Texas thread far above the California thread, which I always take as a good sign.
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Jun 1, 2015 14:46
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It's sine die yall and nothing terribly egregious passed, so it's a win 
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Jun 1, 2015 14:49
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zoux posted:It's sine die yall and nothing terribly egregious passed, so it's a win Ya know, I'd trade this feeling of relief knowing that we have another full empty year between now and the next session of nonsense in exchange for having a functional legislature that actually shows up to work in one of the biggest hubs of the country.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:10
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Ya know, I'd trade this feeling of relief knowing that we have another full empty year between now and the next session of nonsense in exchange for having a functional legislature that actually shows up to work in one of the biggest hubs of the country. They wouldn't do anything good. It'd be all social issues. Also if you look at most state legislatures they meet every year but for half the time that we do.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:20
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I miss them already. I'm happy that the line at the chili parlor will return to normal though.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:33
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zoux posted:It's sine die yall and nothing terribly egregious passed, so it's a win so, campus carry is dead?
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Jun 1, 2015 15:51
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ReidRansom posted:so, campus carry is dead? No, it passed. It was watered down a bit to permit presidents to set gun-free zones if they can justify it and if regents say ok. There are probably a couple of thousand CHL holders in Texas that go to college. I think both "big gun bills" were more or less non-issues that will have very little impact on people day to day.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:56
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