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Yeah I'm looking closer and that thing makes zero goddamn sense. Here is how you evaluate how well you kept to a budget: (1) How much did you budget? (2) How much did you spend? You went over your budget in groceries, clothes, discretionary, misc, pets, insurance... that's $300 that all could have been managed within the month. The totals are close to matched, BUT. Your total in Fixed is only ok because of a temporary underspending on utilities and internet that is going to bite you next month. Your total in Flexible is only ok because of your underspending on Restaurants, and that means you failed to "pay back" your past restaurant costs as you intended. Your budget for savings says $1151 but you put $0 in. And you still haven't explained where the mystery extra is coming from in that $5315 number. The whole point of this challenge of keeping to a budget is that you don't change it, especially not upwards, so why did it change?
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Jun 1, 2015 19:40
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slap me silly posted:Your budget for savings says $1151 but you put $0 in. No, he did. He allocated $1151 to the savings envelopes and did not spend from those envelopes. That's why in his balance column for his emergency savings, he has $2833.65 in that envelope. The money is considered put in because it's given a 'job' and is removed from the 'Available to Budget' that's up top. Rurutia fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 19:46
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slap me silly posted:Yeah I'm looking closer and that thing makes zero goddamn sense. Here is how you evaluate how well you kept to a budget: (1) How much did you budget? (2) How much did you spend? You went over your budget in groceries, clothes, discretionary, misc, pets, insurance... that's $300 that all could have been managed within the month. Agreed on the overspending. I don't have an excuse there. The internet and utilities can be factored in. We didn't spend anything on restaurants that can be ignored if you want. We technically budgeted $100 but spent $0, but I didn't include that in the overall calculations I posted. We did pay ourselves back we started the month with $-194.07. June we're now finally in the black again with restaurants ($5), so we dug ourselves out of that hole. Next month it will be a normal category again. The extra money came from and went to the business category. I sold some microscopes, so it was technically income for the month. Normally I just put that directly into the business category, but I accidentally made it income this time and I didn't want to accidentally mess it up, so it got budgeted instead (so hard to explain). It's just YNAB confusion I promise. Rurutia posted:No, he did. He allocated $1151 to the savings envelopes and did not spend from those envelopes. That's why in his balance column for his emergency savings, he has $2833.65 in that envelope. Right thank you for explaining. YNAB is hard to explain, but I think it's easy to use. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 19:50
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Knyteguy I wouldn't consider you 'under budget' unless you actually properly account for the overages otherwise the categories you're using to cover up those overages will still have the additional rollover next month. You also won't be able to keep the same budget in June unless you do this because right now you have several categories eating into your available to budget money for June.
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Jun 1, 2015 19:50
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Rurutia posted:Knyteguy I wouldn't consider you 'under budget' unless you actually properly account for the overages otherwise the categories you're using to cover up those overages will still have the additional rollover next month. You also won't be able to keep the same budget in June unless you do this because right now you have several categories eating into your available to budget money for June. I'm open here. If you guys want me to make every category rollover that goes negative and we have to make it up the following month (ala pets) then I'm down for that. That's like totally my style. Just tell me what you guys want for the contest and I'll do it (with sponsors having the ultimate say of course). I'll move to a spreadsheet budget again for the next couple months if that's what'll clarify everything. (P.S.: It's nice to be back on budget talk). Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 19:52
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Continuing looking at the flex spending area - a few other thoughts. If you remove the $100 line item on the restaurants that you didn't spend (nice work on that). You in fact overspent that entire category by $80 $960 - $100 = $860 Total spent - $940 If YNAB had a line on the UI where it showed your previous month's balance per line item - either positive or negative it might make some sense. If you do not carry these negatives/positives over month to month you are not budgeting! Knyteguy posted:I'm open here. If you guys want me to make every category rollover that goes negative and we have to make it up the following month (ala pets) then I'm down for that. That's like totally my style. Just tell me what you guys want for the contest and I'll do it. I'll move to a spreadsheet budget again for the next couple months if that's what'll clarify everything. Yes for the love of God.
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Jun 1, 2015 19:53
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Just to go back to the YNAB thing as a whole. You've got a bunch of people looking at this who are confused as hell. I'm going to guess that a number of these people manage their money much better than you. YNAB should go in the garbage. It is not working well.
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Jun 1, 2015 19:55
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^^^ YNAB is very intuitive to use, I don't think it's serving him badly at all. People might be confused because they haven't ever used it but it's really just the envelope system as an app. It's not any different from any other spreadsheet, and honestly it's not the program that's the problem. You can do that or you can take money out of other envelopes to make up for the overages. It's up to other people in the thread as to which one they think the better option. Whichever method you choose, if you don't fix your inability to see that you have <$10 in a category and stop spending, the chickens will come home to roost and you'll end up with an overall negative balance. I don't think you did well in May and I'm honestly very disappointed.
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Jun 1, 2015 19:57
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Is there a way you can show your starting balance on the left of the budgeted amount? That might make more sense since you can see which areas you are in the hole / positive.
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Jun 1, 2015 20:00
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n8r posted:Is there a way you can show your starting balance on the left of the budgeted amount? That might make more sense since you can see which areas you are in the hole / positive. Yes. He just needs to include the previous month in the screenshot.
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Jun 1, 2015 20:01
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Rurutia posted:You can do that or you can take money out of other envelopes to make up for the overages. It's up to other people in the thread as to which one they think the better option. Whichever method you choose, if you don't fix your inability to see that you have <$10 in a category and stop spending, the chickens will come home to roost and you'll end up with an overall negative balance. Sorry to anyone who feels this way. I did try. I had to buy a suit and stuff that was really tough to fit into the budget. Judge me on my 3-month I think I'll do better there. I can keep YNAB going on the side, so really if the sponsors want me to spreadsheet this bad-boy up then I'll do so. Lunch time guys just tell me whatever will be easiest, or I can do my best to clarify. I'll post Aprils EOM alongside to help show a better picture.
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Jun 1, 2015 20:04
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n8r posted:Just to go back to the YNAB thing as a whole. You've got a bunch of people looking at this who are confused as hell. I'm going to guess that a number of these people manage their money much better than you. YNAB should go in the garbage. It is not working well. I'd rather see him stick with it for the duration of the challenge, otherwise, it creates the same issue of clouding his spending history. At this point in the thread we really should be able to say "ok historically Knyteguy spends X dollars per month on this or that" and it's really hard to actually do that since we've gone through so many budget styles. Sticking with something subpar is better than flailing around trying to find the perfect way to present the budget. (For the record I like YNAB just fine and my finances are also fine. My husband is an accountant and the layout drives him a little batty, but he agrees that we have a better view of our finances than we would without the program.)
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Jun 1, 2015 20:05
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Yeah ok that will help - I see in an older post he did that it makes quite a bit more sense. Here is the whole problem with the envelope system as an app. When a real envelope is empty of money you don't get to just spend more. KG consistently overspends his 'envelopes'. It is not serving him well. Until he actually stops spending when he reaches the budgeted about... welp.
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Jun 1, 2015 20:07
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Knyteguy posted:I'm open here. If you guys want me to make every category rollover that goes negative and we have to make it up the following month (ala pets) then I'm down for that. Note that this is not necessarily the best advice to ensure you win the current challenge, since I personally don't care if you go into the red temporarily on some categories provided the annual budgeting numbers still work out. I think it's how you have to learn to think and live if you want to control your spending and achieve your goals.
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Jun 1, 2015 20:17
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If the savings balance column represents the addition of $1150, why doesn't it change from May to June? Confusing as gently caress. If you tell me your savings account balance really increased by $1150 this month I will take your word for it.n8r posted:So you overspent on 6 categories? Knyteguy posted:Correct. Second, in your Flexible category, you went over budget in most categories. It's made up for by the fact that you spent zero on restaurants. You're babbling about "paying back" your past restaurant expenses, but you didn't. At all. You used that money to cover your suit, groceries, and misc. That's fine with me, I think it's a good strategy, just be clear about it with yourself. Therefore, as far as I personally am concerned, I will let May slide for the purposes of the challenge, though with a jaundiced eye. My advice going forward: DO NOT roll over things in the Flexible category. That category is doing a decent job of collecting all the stuff you can and should control within a month. If you go over budget for misc, then don't go out to eat. If you go over on groceries, don't spend the discretionary. Those kind of compromises are immediate, direct, and simple.
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Jun 1, 2015 20:26
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slap me silly posted:My advice going forward: DO NOT roll over things in the Flexible category. That category is doing a decent job of collecting all the stuff you can and should control within a month. If you go over budget for misc, then don't go out to eat. If you go over on groceries, don't spend the discretionary. Those kind of compromises are immediate, direct, and simple. I disagree with not rolling over. If he has planned to spend $950 per month in the flex category - and he spends $1000 - his goal should be to spend $900 the next month. If he doesn't roll over, every time he overspends there is no real consequence to this. The problem with the entire thing, and this has been the problem really from the get go, is that KG overspends his categories without much concern. When you're just swiping a card, there is nothing stopping you from spending more. I would contend that the best course of action for KG - within the flex spending category, physical envelope cash method. Once that $400 for food is gone, you're done shopping, or you pull it out of the discretionary envelope (that you hopefully didn't blow in the first 5 days). It wasn't answered previously, but what is the discretionary getting spent on? I would contend - once again - that you have somewhere in the range of $250 a month that you're blowing on stupid poo poo. You could be putting this toward good uses like paying down debt.
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Jun 1, 2015 21:10
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The problem with not letting flex spending roll over is that he has a history of front loading expenses and then claiming he came in $3 under budget the following month. It was like groceries, every month he had "2-3 weeks worth of stuff frozen we'll be good" and then he'd either over spend or just barely scrape in under budget. Honestly even though I hate YNAB I think at this point he needs to keep using something even if it sucks. I never change my budget template month over month and so I can very easily pull about 2 years of data and look at historical spend. I think since this thread started he's used about 5-6 different methods of budgeting and allocating expenses so he doesn't even have a clear history 1.5 years later. I feel like May budget gets a pass with an *. Technically under budget, but from a reality standpoint probably about $200 over budget when you adjust for unpaid utilities, unpaid internet, and overloaded utility budget. Plus I'm sure that at least 50% of their discretionary went to eating out so they probably spent $600 on food. Again. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Jun 1, 2015 21:20
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slap me silly posted:If the savings balance column represents the addition of $1150, why doesn't it change from May to June? Confusing as gently caress. If you tell me your savings account balance really increased by $1150 this month I will take your word for it. That's an actual savings increase yes. In June is goes up by another $1,080 to equal ~$3,913. Yes I expect a few things to drop down in June. Plus my wife is going to take over the grocery budget and meal planning by herself, and I think she'll do better than me there. Fuel expense - we actually don't have a vacation category at the moment. Fair enough on the flexible categories we can do that going forward. By definition it should be 'flexible' so you have a point. n8r posted:I disagree with not rolling over. If he has planned to spend $950 per month in the flex category - and he spends $1000 - his goal should be to spend $900 the next month. If he doesn't roll over, every time he overspends there is no real consequence to this. I think what SMS is saying is don't overspend on the flex categories, just sacrifice from other flex categories if an overage is necessary. But I could be wrong. I'd be fine with an envelope system I keep saying I'm going to try that and I always forget to. Maybe June we can give it a go and I'll just track by hand. We lose some spending data (exactly how much went to what company), but we don't use that much anyway. Discretionary - meh just fun stuff or lazy stuff. For a (I think another) positive note, we should finally be in a position to start paying down debt by August. We're looking at around $1000/mo into debt every single month after that. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 21:29
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Yeah, that's a point. The other side of it is, look at how he's mentally tracking his restaurant spending from months past, and gave himself full credit this month for paying it back, when he demonstrably didn't pay it back. I mean, there are two ways I can interpret this: one, he skimped on restaurants to cover a $100 excess in other categories. Or two, he blew the budget by $100. The way I think about budgets, it's option one. But if we're going to do the rolling over thing in flex categories, it's option two and he straight up failed in May. In my opinion there's no justification for rolling over flex categories, because the expenditures are adjustable within the month. Rolling over is an upper-grades envelope analogue for things like quarterly and annual expenses. It's clearly not working for him to use it for groceries, food, "misc". At the current moment, the problem with rolling over restaurants is this: he overspent his discretionary money by $100 in May, doing something like his best effort. Now he's going to ask himself to spend twice that much less in June, to make up for June and May both, after he's demonstrated he can't even make the first target? It's self-sabotaging for someone who's trying to learn to work from a budget. Dude has a wee baby for chrissake.
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Jun 1, 2015 21:31
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The tell for me is that his checking went from 8809 budget to 8822 actual. Which means he netted $13 for the month. Or spent 99.9% of what he earned during the month of May.
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Jun 1, 2015 21:37
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slap me silly posted:Yeah, that's a point. The other side of it is, look at how he's mentally tracking his restaurant spending from months past, and gave himself full credit this month for paying it back, when he demonstrably didn't pay it back. Well jeez in this case consider me option 1 all the way  .Bugamol posted:The tell for me is that his checking went from 8809 budget to 8822 actual. Which means he netted $13 for the month. Or spent 99.9% of what he earned during the month of May. Rent and some bills already came out for June (bill pay). There's no tell to be found. Also you're forgetting Paypal. We pay for microscopes from our checking, but get paid via Paypal. vv my bad! Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 21:41
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I'm inclined that way too. The concern is his utility and internet bill - how much of that was in his control over the course of the month? Said another way, how many $100s is he gonna have to cut back next month just to break even again? E: dammit knyteguy you keep breaking in ahead of my replies
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Jun 1, 2015 21:41
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Can you please post a screenshot showing May - and June? Preferrably with the positive/negative balances from May rolled over? Edit: Knyteguy posted:Discretionary - meh just fun stuff or lazy stuff. Ok - so you don't see this as a problem? It's not like you're saving up your discretionary for months at a time and buying something of actual value / usefulness. You're just blowing it on stupid / cheap crap. You talk about financial independence stuff (which from what I've read of that thread is like /r/nofap for money) and you're just wasting ~$250 between your wife and you. You could be using this money so much more wisely. Even if it wasn't for debt/bills (which it should be) you could be saving for a vacation you keep saying you want. n8r fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 21:43
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n8r posted:Can you please post a screenshot showing May - and June? Preferrably with the positive/negative balances from May rolled over? Yeah here's April, too (imgur has so much of my financial data on there).  To head off any questions, yes these expenses are in June, groceries and gas were bought last night at like 11:30 (snacks and some bbq stuff), so that seems like a pretty acceptable margin of error. If y'all think my utilities overage for May should go into savings instead now that the month is over that's fine just let me know. It could be done. I'm willing to defer here to BFC since I'm getting a little confused, and I think it's what SMS may be saying. Discretionary - well I used part of my discretionary to help buy a suit and stuff which could potentially give me a job... etc etc. Plus we gave ourselves a larger discretionary pool for the charity exercise. It's not ideal, but I can't reevaluate now (only spend less, which is a constant exercise). e clarity e2 I'm gonna let you guys decide how I should proceed budget-wise I'm comfortable either way. e3 I'd better come under by like $500 next month I don't want the third degree every month 
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Jun 1, 2015 22:13
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Knyteguy posted:To head off any questions, yes these expenses are in June, groceries and gas were bought last night at like 11:30 (snacks and some bbq stuff), so that seems like a pretty acceptable margin of error. I didn't know 11:30 May 31st was in June now. You learn something new every day! $350 on baby stuff in the first 14 hours of June?
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Jun 1, 2015 22:22
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Bugamol posted:I didn't know 11:30 May 31st was in June now. You learn something new every day! $350 on baby stuff in the first 14 hours of June? Paid my sister her June paycheck. And to be completely fair I don't think I should be on the hot-seat for June. I'm trying to show more of the picture and I'm being open. I technically have 6 weeks from today to post June spending. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 22:23
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You can have a pass on that one, but the slight of hand on groceries is pretty funny. Basically when it all falls down you blew your budget by about $300 in May, but due to some shell games and timing you're "favorable" like $100.
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Jun 1, 2015 22:25
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Knyteguy posted:If y'all think my utilities overage for May should go into savings instead now that the month is over that's fine just let me know. It could be done. I'm willing to defer here to BFC since I'm getting a little confused, and I think it's what SMS may be saying. Yeah, it's legit confusing. As well as I understand it, the rolling over that YNAB does is analogous to having a bunch of savings accounts. You have a savings account for utilities, every month you put in $100. In the summer you have to take out $150 every month because air conditioning, but in the winter you only take out $50 every month, and it averages out over the year. That's fine. But if you are going to trade money from one month to the next within a category like that, you can't be trading money between categories as well. Rolling over leaves you with the temptation at the end of winter, "There's a bunch of extra in my utilities account! I must have over budgeted, I can take some out and buy a playstation." No, you can't, because that extra money is for the coming summer that isn't going to happen for months yet. This month, you underspent on your restaurant budget, but you overspent on everything else. To my mind the clearest way to frame it mentally is that you traded between categories within the month of May. E: I personally don't give two shits about May 31 vs. June 1. Go nuts. If you hosed up, it's gonna bite you at the end of June anyway
slap me silly fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 22:28
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slap me silly posted:Yeah, it's legit confusing. As well as I understand it, the rolling over that YNAB does is analogous to having a bunch of savings accounts. You have a savings account for utilities, every month you put in $100. In the summer you have to take out $150 every month because air conditioning, but in the winter you only take out $50 every month, and it averages out over the year. That's fine. But if you are going to trade money from one month to the next within a category like that, you can't be trading money between categories as well. Rolling over leaves you with the temptation at the end of winter, "There's a bunch of extra in my utilities account! I must have over budgeted, I can take some out and buy a playstation." No, you can't, because that extra money is for the coming summer that isn't going to happen for months yet. This is a great point, and I didn't realize until you said something, but I think that's what is bugging me as well. You can either roll your overspending and underspending within a category from month to month, or you can use money from category A to cover spending for category B within that month, but by doing both you are just making everything unnecessarily complicated.
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Jun 1, 2015 22:37
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Isn't your flex budgeting math wrong? You can either use that $100 restaurant budget to cover your overages in May, or your restaurant budget can be used to pay down the -$95. You can't do both. What is the $100 misc for? Why can't you commit it to something useful like paying down your car? Why have you stopped setting aside for vet / car maint? What is the ~$10 for medical expenses. edit: I bet your utility company has a program to pay a set amount every month, I think it's pretty common these days.
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Jun 1, 2015 22:39
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n8r posted:I bet your utility company has a program to pay a set amount every month, I think it's pretty common these days. I have this for electric and gas. It's an improvement, but it's actually still not super predictable. One year I got a $300 extra electric bill at the end of the year. The gas bill is constant all year long, but at the end of the year has changed anywhere from $50 to $110 for the next year depending on how well they estimated in the past. So generally, I recommend it, but don't expect it to be magic. PS See thread title  n8r posted:What is the $100 misc for? Why can't you commit it to something useful like paying down your car? slap me silly fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 22:47
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n8r posted:Isn't your flex budgeting math wrong? You can either use that $100 restaurant budget to cover your overages in May, or your restaurant budget can be used to pay down the -$95. You can't do both. OK I'll look into that, especially if the Stockton job falls through, which it has a high chance of doing that's a lot of money for a non-tech company. Aside from that but still utility chat - One thing we need to talk to our landlord about is our thermostat doesn't work for our air conditioning, so there's going to be some problems there we need to head off. It's strange it works just fine for the heater. Maybe that'll convince them to let me install a new thermostat (if Droo still has his that'd be cool else eBay or something), or if they'll hire someone to do it. For the sake of the charity I like SMS's idea of using it to pay overages. Personally that's fine too I was just trying to feel some consequence of spending too much, but it's possible I overextended which I tend to do. I know I've been a dick recently about the budget (stress, sorry. I'm working on that), but I'm willing to do whatever is easier and works better. Vet/car we were advised that we have enough for now, and if something big comes up then efund. Gotta gamble on this now though because I can't change the budget. Car is probably good it has a normal new car warranty and we pre-bought a maintenance plan, so only brakes and tires to worry about really. Medical is just for really small stuff like aspirin or an ace bandage or something. The only real use it has gotten is as a buffer category if me or my wife mistakenly use the debt card instead of the HSA card. Plus I'm worried I won't keep a receipt for a $5 thing of aspirin while at the store for $40 worth of groceries or something, and I'll have to pay an HSA penalty. slap me silly posted:PS See thread title That's what I was thinking  .
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Jun 1, 2015 23:09
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http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2014/cost-to-own/ $250 is not enough to pay for annual maintenance according to this. You literally sneeze at a car and need to have $250 worth of work done it. By not setting aside a reasonable amount every month, you are not accurately budgeting this item - same goes for the vet thing. Given number of animals you have, I think it's reasonable to assume you could easily spend $600/year on vet costs. You should be setting aside $50/month on both of these items. By underestimating these items, you are giving yourself way too much room for 'discretionary & misc' which you really cannot afford. Every single one of those negative items in your May budget should be carrying over to your new June budget - that little arrow deal should appear next to all of them. You should then use your 'misc / discretionary / restaurant' line items to cover these overages.
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Jun 1, 2015 23:41
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I use YNAB for budgeting and love it, but we use the mobile app so we get real time updates on our category expenditures that are synced via dropbox. It seems like Knightguy just downloads transactions, which is more of a reconciliation. I will roll over a negative category if it's entirely discretionary like restaurants, or if it's something like natural gas which peaks in the winter but will even out in the summer. Budget adjustments happen. Both our kids are slated for ear tube surgery this month, and we only found out a few weeks ago it would be necessary. We put in 150 a month towards medical, but we're budgeting 900 a month for the next couple months because 150 just won't cut it. Other areas are just getting cut to compensate. We'll probably start putting 200 or 300 a month into medical going forward, but it's hard to budget for large and unpredictable costs. That said, the vast majority of your categories should not be changing without a very good reason. Use Mint to figure out how much you spend annually on electricity, divide by 12, that + 10% is what you put in that bucket every month, period.
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Jun 2, 2015 02:10
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I have a few thoughts but I'm going to wait until tomorrow to post them because I'm running on very little sleep and I'd kinda like to see where this conversation goes before I jump in. Knyteguy, good on you for posting results ASAP. Take the feedback to heart and try to look at it with an open mind. (This isn't to say you aren't doing that- but rather to keep doing that.)
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Jun 2, 2015 02:59
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Just remember that people are hard on you because of your stated financial goals. You've come a long way from your first thread 3 years ago.
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Jun 2, 2015 05:42
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Eris posted:It's also my mission, somehow, to get BFC to stop writing that they get "payed" X amount. Eris posted:I've given up on trying to get weight loss groups to stop abbreviating "pds."
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Jun 2, 2015 07:18
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Bugamol posted:Just remember that people are hard on you because of your stated financial goals. You've come a long way from your first thread 3 years ago. I still do a double-take every time he mentions Financial Independence like some sort of mythical holy land (where you can't afford braces for your kids but at least you work for yourself!) that he's totally going to be doable as soon as he just makes more money. I don't mean to sound super harsh. I just reaaaaally hate how many dumb nerds have their hopes and dreams seriously tied up in this idea that they're going to retire early and never have to work for someone else ever again even though in many situations it's difficult at best and impossible at worst. Colin Mockery fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 2, 2015 |
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Jun 2, 2015 07:38
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Horking Delight posted:I don't mean to sound super harsh. I just reaaaaally hate how many dumb nerds have their hopes and dreams seriously tied up in this idea that they're going to retire early and never have to work for someone else ever again even though in many situations it's difficult at best and impossible at worst. It's the same as working for yourself, you think you'll get away from lovely bosses. What ends up happening is that your clients are the lovely bosses. I know plenty of people who are financially independent but they all work on their businesses. Best to focus on sorting out budget and debt issues before putting energy into financial independence.
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Jun 2, 2015 09:02
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Horking Delight posted:I still do a double-take every time he mentions Financial Independence like some sort of mythical holy land (where you can't afford braces for your kids but at least you work for yourself!) that he's totally going to be doable as soon as he just makes more money. FI is like becoming an Olympic athlete. You have to dedicate years, decades to living your life in pursuit of that one goal. You can't just go to the gym a few times a week and think it will happen.
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Jun 2, 2015 11:51
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