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MonsieurChoc posted:The best part is, you can sue antagonists from different lines in whatever game you want. The Adamantine Arrow lawyer strikes again!
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May 31, 2015 19:53
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Crion posted:The Adamantine Arrow lawyer strikes again! All his mudras are Phoenix Wright poses, I've decided.
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Jun 1, 2015 19:56
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 Adamantine Arrow rote mudras are supposed to be dynamic, aggressive gestures like pointing at people.
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Jun 2, 2015 12:23
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Beast: The Primordial kickstarts today. I still mantain hope that it might be good, or if nothing else, that its ideas could be salvaged and used differently.
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Jun 2, 2015 12:44
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I hope one of the stretch goals lets you select a better art design:  That, or keep its subtitle as "A Game of Something Something Horror".
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Jun 2, 2015 12:53
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You know, I just realised that Demon uses the Doom font.  Well played, Onyx Path.
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Jun 2, 2015 12:58
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Doodmons posted:You know, I just realised that Demon uses the Doom font. Not really. It's a very similar style, but look how different the D is. The M is also much more symmetrically constructed in the Doom logo, and Doom's Os have beveled top corners, in addition to the hole in the middle of the O having only a single slope across the bottom rather than two slopes that come together in a point.
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Jun 2, 2015 17:57
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 Beast: The Primordial Kickstarter is live
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Jun 2, 2015 19:14
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Well, the Ugallu look like they've improved from being BIRDS: THE HORROR though Makara are still gently caress The Ocean: The Splat. rear end in a top hat Cab Driver is still in the book. I recognize a lot of the text in the book as being exactly identical to the stuff rom the leak. Heroes still awful. Far too much text still spent on them. Beast SUPER MERITS still around, but some things are gone. Demolisher's been toned down. Atavisms...still pretty powerful. Dragonfire still shoots agg damage fire blasts, but it's now 1 Satiety per agg fire blast. Eye of Heaven lets oyu make rote action attacks at 1 per Satiety. Limb From Limb is agg damage still, but 1 attack per Satiety spent. Rather saner stuff, really, in many cases. Looming Presence no longer makes you so huge that you're practically impossible to kill, but still very powerful. Storm-Lashed satiety expenditure still called down a giant doom storm that will probably tear apart anything for miles around. Titanic Blow still obsoletes any and all other anti-object powers, including Demolisher and the Anakim innate power. Unbreakable still stupid, gives at least 3/2 armor at all times, full body, no weaknesses. Goes up to 4/3 at low satiety and can grant immunity to bashing damage for a scene for 1 satiety while also downgraded any weapon-based attacks from lethal to bashing (which still works, just, punching won't.) Nightmares still cool, still powerful but less crazy than some Atavisms. You Are Meat still able to do permanent soul loss barring special ST-mediated journey to get better. Still works on literally anything in the WoD except Beasts. Everyone else, even things that have no souls, can be hit. Beasts have souls that are too powerful. Satiety seems harder to regain - Nightmares no longer exist to regain Satiety that I can see in my skim. Hero section quite different. A lot of focus on mythological heroes which is weird but I think Heroes are weird in general anyway. Somewhat more sympathetic in places but not that much. Still a weird belief that Heroes would have a society of any sort. (And that Beasts do, despite claims to the contrary.) Still not happy wit hthe language used in headers ('Sidekicks and Useful Mammals' for teaming up with hunters and other stuff, 'Side Quests' for dealing with other monsters ) Choice quotes: quote:Most Heroes today take that as a sign that their cause brings order to the world, and every Beast they slay brings them one step closer to curing the world’s ills. The Children do their best not to laugh when they face Heroes who declare such order as their true intent. quote:On the surface, it might seem that the Uratha would sympathize with Heroes, focused as they are on defending their territory and hunting down threats. In actuality, werewolves tend to find Heroes insufferable. A werewolf is happiest in a pack, and the pack relies on the members knowing each other and being willing to call each other on their poo poo, having each other’s backs, and not sacrificing their safety for personal glory. Heroes understand none of that, to say nothing of the fact that they tend to assume that werewolves are just lesser Beasts. Section still notes that an all-NPC group does not get Beats or XP, but gain Willpower when they would gain Beats. Why? Lots of stuff that seems like it'd only apply to Heroes as PCs. Super weird. Heroes can now stop being Heroes - for some reason, they just stop feeling the urge to kill monsters now. First example Hero still a literal fedora-wearing nerd. Chart of hero slang thankfully gone. Demon stuff better now - Demons and Beasts now no longer instinctively hate each other and can find each other useful occasionally. Despite this, stupid demon-detection rules in place to make them instinctively dislike each other. Text disagrees with itself about whether demons and beasts hate each other in a few places. (Most notably, Rage and the Machines sidebar and the bit on Demon crossovers.) Changelings now rather nervous around and not super trusting of Beasts, seems appropriate. Demons still not kin, but whatevs, that's cool. Hunter crossover notes kind of stupid. quote:“If it bleeds, we can kill it,” describes the typical hunter’s view of Beasts. It’s a simplistic, reductive attitude, one designed to insulate them from the idea that they might be killing a thinking, feeling being. In itself, that’s not terribly unusual: any hunter who’s gone after a vampire or a witch has faced the conundrum. The difference is that Beasts know the script: their arguments are less, “perhaps it is you who is truly the monster,” than “what gives you the right to kill monsters?” For hunters used to self-justification and equivocation from their prey, that sort of reversal can prompt some soul-searching. Typically the reason is 'because you're loving things up for people, shithead.' This is a good reason and one which doesn't really get very well addressed here, the assumption seems to be that beasts are never doing something that's really worth killing them for. Which seems odd? I mean, Hunters often hunt for a drat good reason. They quesiton themselves and do bad poo poo, sure, but at least mention that, y'know, sometimes the hunters aren't terrible people for getting mad at beasts? quote:Heroes are wrong. They’re full of themselves and dead convinced they’re not only in the right, but that they’re an important part of righting some terrible wrong. To the Begotten, this makes them clear, obvious antagonists. Heroes hunt and destroy Beasts. How do you then make them interesting and multi-faceted without removing that degree of obvious antagonism? No, no, no, you were doing better! Still not great, but better! Why is this still here? Why are there still whole essays on how lovely Heroes are, how they're trolls and conspiracy theorists and crazy MRA gunmen? quote:His manifesto, be it in blogs, online videos, a book kept under his bed, or scrawled on the walls in the blood of his targets, should be convoluted, sickening, and patently false. But it should circle around to support his original premise, that world perspective that started him down the rabbit hole. It’s never his fault. The job is never done. He is the Hero. Everyone who disagrees is a potential monster to be slain. quote:The worst part is, the Hero has sympathizers. The Hero has enablers. The Hero can build a cult of personality (with or without the True King gift) and find groups of people who will be in his corner no matter how wrong he is. To those people, he’s truly a hero, and everything he does is for the betterment of humanity. Even if they don’t love him, they love his actions and refuse to believe he’s anything but just. quote:As noted in Chapter Four, it’s possible to lose Integrity from exposure to the supernatural, but this by itself doesn’t usually reduce the trait low enough to qualify a person for becoming a Hero. Thematically, too, it’s not appropriate for someone whose only “crime” was bearing witness to the supernatural to become a Hero. Since Heroes are Storyteller-controlled character, you as Storyteller dictate why the Hero is the way he is, so make choices that allow the Hero to fulfill the appropriate role in the story. If the Hero is a sympathetic character, driven to hunt monsters by the relentless attacks of the supernatural, then you might be better served checking out Hunter: The Vigil (and perhaps using Beasts as antagonists). If, however, the Hero has deliberately shunned other people, defining himself by what he is not, what he hates, or the wrongs done to him, that’s a perfect candidate. Apparently Heroes who hit Integrity 5+ get souls strong enough to ignore Beasts and seek other interests. They stop being Heroes mechanically until they drop back down, though they may still kill Beasts. Beasts do not know this. Beasts' Souls seem to prefer having Heroes around because they like killing them. Overall: It's better, but I don't know that I'd call it good yet. Definitely not great.
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Jun 2, 2015 20:48
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Just rename the Heroes "Strawmen" and called it a day. Jesus, what crap.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:10
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Heroes wouldn't need to be insane smelly egotistical misogynists if Beasts were actually interesting.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:19
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Beasts want to destroy the one true virtuous splat of the nWoD (banishers); by this we know that they are evil.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:20
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Overall, I would say there is more to salvage and use here than there was in the leak. I find the authorial voice is way too into Beasts and them being the good guys who are right, almost as if it was in character, but Beasts are playable, even if the driving reason to be one ('scare people in your specific Hunger way') is not always the most fun thing to do and they kind of lack other reasons to do stuff. I would say that Beast is kind of like Geist, in terms of quality and writing. A little better than Geist, really - the mechanics are more cromulent, and Beasts have a reason to do a thing, even if it's not a great one. Satiety mechanics were overhauled - much easier to spend a lot of it and harder to regain it, so that's nice. But it's not a triumph of the setting by any means.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:42
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Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, too. There's a recurring sense of innocence in the way Beasts are handled that reminds me of Promethean. Except it makes sense with Prometheans. With Beasts it just feels weird.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:47
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I'm having trouble seeing how the authorial voice can see 'people who terrorize people in either petty or murderous ways' as Good and Right. Like, what does the game think makes the Beasts the good guys, exactly? Is it just that they never asked for any of this crap?
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Jun 2, 2015 21:49
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Pretty much, yes, they seem to suffer from the belief that because they didn't ask for this or choose it, they have no culpability and no one has any right to be mad at them for being monstrous. It's toned down some from where it was in the leak, though.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:50
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Vampires might not have asked to be vampires and I can still see them as more sympathetic than Beasts.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:52
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Beast, like 1st Edition Mage: The Awakening, is a game I think will improve tremendously with supplements.
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Jun 2, 2015 21:58
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So, how does a group of Beasts work? Do you just all run around helping one another fulfill your weird monster twitches?
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Jun 2, 2015 22:01
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...yeah, pretty much. You hang out, help each other go hunting, maybe link up your Lairs. I did mention the problem where Beasts really only have the one thing to do at the moment.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:03
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Beast just sounds like sort of a boring waste of its concept, which is sad. Not even vile or offensive or anything, just sorta completely inconsequential and pointless.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:04
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Mors Rattus posted:No, no, no, you were doing better! Still not great, but better! Why is this still here? Why are there still whole essays on how lovely Heroes are, how they're trolls and conspiracy theorists and crazy MRA gunmen? You're doing the lord's work, Mors. GimpInBlack posted:Beast, like 1st Edition Mage: The Awakening, is a game I think will improve tremendously with supplements. ....so why ask for money to deliver the corebook in its current state, rather than release these supplements with a barebones starter system attached?
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Jun 2, 2015 22:06
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Gerund posted:....so why ask for money to deliver the corebook in its current state, rather than release these supplements with a barebones starter system attached? Way above my pay grade. I'm just stating my opinion as a fan and player, I'm not going to comment or speculate on development decisions. I, personally, would like more structure and mechanical hooks to Beast. That's just me and the way I like to play and design games.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:11
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Night10194 posted:Beast just sounds like sort of a boring waste of its concept, which is sad. Not even vile or offensive or anything, just sorta completely inconsequential and pointless. The Heroes stuff gets pretty close to being offensively underthought. I still have to give it a full read myself if the "beasts are women on the internet (and also gleeful monstrous sadists)" accidental reading still exists. Gerund posted:....so why ask for money to deliver the corebook in its current state, rather than release these supplements with a barebones starter system attached?  sadly. I see glimmers of good ideas in Beast, but enough warning signs to make me pause and reconsider if they'd ever be expounded upon in later splats, or put aside for more strawman punching. I'm not sure I can back it in good faith - the only way I could is if there was really solid evidence that they want to improve it in later books (and again, why the hell not make the core book better instead?), and the stretch goals give no indication of that. They're curiously anemic, even.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:12
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I'm also still not seeing why 'I want to stop this horrific monster that exists to spread fear and devour lives' makes someone wrong. Especially when it sounds like the Beasts are also much more powerful than the Heroes, so it's rather a brave thing to try to take them on. Same for Hunters taking these things on. Basically, there's a lot to be said for 'This thing eats people' as a justification for fighting it.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:13
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I think I just landed on what's really bugging me about the whole thing. I'm picking up on two dominant tones in how Beasts are described: one of innocence and one that's very unapologetic. This would be fine except Beasts are predators by nature. An innocent, unapologetic predator is going to start feeling really dissonant really quick if you aren't careful, and I feel like that's what's happening here.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:18
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It's the game of revenge fanfic, so oWoD 90's it drips grunge. You're the bullied outsider everyone hates just because you're different, but you have the magical power to kill all your bullies brutally, and it's OK because they're all evil at heart.Basically the tagline posted:You don’t suffer nightmares. quote:It always felt like you stood apart from the rest of the herd; no matter how much you tried to be good, no one could argue that you had a cruel streak that ran bone deep. quote:It wasn’t cruelty in your nature: it was Hunger. Now you knew just how to feed it. Maybe it’s not pretty, sating these drives, but you don’t have a choice. It’s not your fault you’re what you are; since you can’t go back, you might as well make the best of it. Beasts are sadistic by their very nature, and embrace the fact they're sadistic. Maybe the Heroes are evil, but at least their cause isn't justified by "I should get to be left alone to harm people, because it's in my nature to be a sadistic jerk".
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Jun 2, 2015 22:30
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I think I just landed on what's really bugging me about the whole thing. I'm picking up on two dominant tones in how Beasts are described: one of innocence and one that's very unapologetic. This would be fine except Beasts are predators by nature. An innocent, unapologetic predator is going to start feeling really dissonant really quick if you aren't careful, and I feel like that's what's happening here. This, exactly. Take Vampire as a counterpart: vampires are assholes that do terrible things, but their book, while still describing how awesome it is to be one, does delve on that, on the fact that they literally survive by hurting other people. Beast seems desperate to convince us that its protagonists are plaster saints.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:31
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I think I just landed on what's really bugging me about the whole thing. I'm picking up on two dominant tones in how Beasts are described: one of innocence and one that's very unapologetic. This would be fine except Beasts are predators by nature. An innocent, unapologetic predator is going to start feeling really dissonant really quick if you aren't careful, and I feel like that's what's happening here. That chill you feel down your spine is the unquiet ghost of the lupus garou.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:31
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GimpInBlack posted:Beast, like 1st Edition Mage: The Awakening, is a game I think will improve tremendously with supplements. 1st edition Mage did not improve with supplements (except in the sense that anything will given more specific examples, game ideas, etc). Supplements just revealed what was already in the core. Unlike Mage 1e, Beastis not a densely-packed game whose presentation is so cramped that most people don't "get" it at first blush. On the contrary, it's way too easily-grasped for its own good.
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Jun 2, 2015 22:33
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Androc posted:That chill you feel down your spine is the unquiet ghost of the lupus garou. Revised Tribebook: Red Talons was basically "No, see, they don't get the cognative dissonance, because they're wolves! That's the point!" written over and over again. There were a few bits where you got the sense that the Red Talons are just going through the motions of how they think wolves should act because they don't comprehend that they aren't entirely wolves anymore. And that line of thinking is causing the tribe to destroy itself from within. But even the sympathetic Red Talons don't achieve that leap of logic, stopping at "Well maybe we don't have to murder humans and bleed their entrails into the earth."
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Jun 2, 2015 22:42
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So basically Beast has the same problem as Disney's Beauty and the Beast, being that Gaston has to be a complete piece of poo poo so the audience won't notice that the Beast is every bit the indefensible monster Gaston says he is?
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Jun 2, 2015 22:52
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So is this shaping up to be better or worse than Geist in terms of wasted potential?
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Jun 2, 2015 23:11
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Xelkelvos posted:So is this shaping up to be better or worse than Geist in terms of wasted potential? Geist will probably be getting a second edition to address its wasted potential soon. Beast needs to pray for a hail-mary supplement.
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Jun 2, 2015 23:14
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Xelkelvos posted:So is this shaping up to be better or worse than Geist in terms of wasted potential? IMO the mechanics of Beast are better than those of 1E Geist, for what that's worth.
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Jun 2, 2015 23:19
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quote:Heroes are wrong. They’re full of themselves and dead convinced they’re not only in the right, but that they’re an important part of righting some terrible wrong. To the Begotten, this makes them clear, obvious antagonists. Heroes hunt and destroy Beasts. How do you then make them interesting and multi-faceted without removing that degree of obvious antagonism? quote:As noted in Chapter Four, it’s possible to lose Integrity from exposure to the supernatural, but this by itself doesn’t usually reduce the trait low enough to qualify a person for becoming a Hero. Thematically, too, it’s not appropriate for someone whose only “crime” was bearing witness to the supernatural to become a Hero. Since Heroes are Storyteller-controlled character, you as Storyteller dictate why the Hero is the way he is, so make choices that allow the Hero to fulfill the appropriate role in the story. If the Hero is a sympathetic character, driven to hunt monsters by the relentless attacks of the supernatural, then you might be better served checking out Hunter: The Vigil (and perhaps using Beasts as antagonists). If, however, the Hero has deliberately shunned other people, defining himself by what he is not, what he hates, or the wrongs done to him, that’s a perfect candidate. What in the world
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Jun 2, 2015 23:34
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Beast: the game where you need to buy into killing normies so much that the book tells you to seek sympathetic antagonists elsewhere
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Jun 2, 2015 23:35
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If Beast was based on Beauty and the Beast in a meaningful way, it would be about coming to terms with having a terminal disease. But that doesn't move PDFs.
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Jun 2, 2015 23:59
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Yeah, I'm still not sold. Might use them as Hunter/Changeling antagonists down the line, though.
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Jun 3, 2015 00:15
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| # ? May 9, 2024 14:02 |
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What is the "Failure State" of beast, what are you trying to prevent. Does your inner monster take over and go full Godzilla?
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Jun 3, 2015 00:21
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