Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

e: nope gently caress this topic

flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 3, 2015

# ? Jun 3, 2015 17:53

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# ? May 29, 2024 16:02

Waco Panty Raid: Mar 30, 2002; I don't mind being a little pedantic.

VitalSigns posted:

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to pick up my wallet whenever I want, that doesn't mean I have a right to hunt down someone who has it and attack them in a dark room.

Do you own the dark room and they are there illegally and you are asking them to leave but instead they make a threatening gesture that a jury of your peers agreed was reasonable to perceive as a threat? If not why do you keep bringing this hunting scenario up?

Do you honestly believe this guy was hunting trespassers? Yes there were his threatening comments but would you want to be held to every indiscreet comment you've ever made, even years later? Especially if those comments don't match what actually happen? He wasn't lying in wait, he entered the house and announced himself. That's not hunting (unless he was trying to drive the trespassers to other hunters?)

# ? Jun 3, 2015 17:54

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Yes I believe when people say they are going to hunt trespassers and shoot them, and then they go hunt trespassers and shoot them, that these may be related.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:00

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

flakeloaf posted:

e: nope gently caress this topic

It hasn't been about cops for like 20 pages now. Is the thread effectively finished?

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:04

Rhesus Pieces: Jun 27, 2005

Samurai Sanders posted:

It hasn't been about cops for like 20 pages now. Is the thread effectively finished?

We've gone too long without a high profile unjustified officer-involved shooting hitting the news so it inevitably devolved to gun-chat.

How about a ridiculous arrest to get the thread back on track? From the USPol thread:

Fried Chicken posted:

Let's play "Guess The State"

A couple of parents cheered for their children at their high school graduation. They now have warrants for their arrest on charges of "disturbing the peace" with a possible $500 bond for doing so.

That's the whole story. Their kids graduated. They cheered. They are now going to have to bond out of jail, pay court costs, or pay a $500 fine, for expressing their love and support of their children.

Guess the state!

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:11

Waco Panty Raid: Mar 30, 2002; I don't mind being a little pedantic.

VitalSigns posted:

Yes I believe when people say they are going to hunt trespassers and shoot them, and then they go hunt trespassers and shoot them, that these may be related.

Did he say he was going to hunt trespassers? I'm having trouble locating those comments again.

Samurai Sanders posted:

It hasn't been about cops for like 20 pages now. Is the thread effectively finished?

In Cleveland PD news Michael Brelo (the hood shooter recently exonerated) was charged with assaulting his brother in a fist fight. The Tamir Rice investigation is to be turned over to prosecutors today but it could be weeks before any charges.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:13

Bob James: Nov 15, 2005; by Lowtax; Ultra Carp

Samurai Sanders posted:

It hasn't been about cops for like 20 pages now. Is the thread effectively finished?

Nah. Needlessly violent police are sleeping in R'lyeh waiting for the call. They will be awoken soon. Only then will they gun down the howling mix-breed savages of the night.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:13

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

Rhesus Pieces posted:

We've gone too long without a high profile unjustified officer-involved shooting hitting the news so it inevitably devolved to gun-chat.

Does that mean one hasn't happened recently (so police are getting the message) or just that the media isn't reporting it?

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:14

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

VitalSigns posted:

[(d) In all situations in which the entry by the occupant was a forcible entry under Section 24.001, the person entitled to possession must give the occupant oral or written notice to vacate before the landlord files a forcible entry and detainer suit. The notice to vacate under this subsection may be to vacate immediately or by a specified deadline.
...
(f) The notice to vacate shall be given in person or by mail at the premises in question. Notice in person may be by personal delivery to the tenant or any person residing at the premises who is 16 years of age or older or personal delivery to the premises and affixing the notice to the inside of the main entry door. Notice by mail may be by regular mail, by registered mail, or by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the premises in question. If the dwelling has no mailbox and has a keyless bolting device, alarm system, or dangerous animal that prevents the landlord from entering the premises to leave the notice to vacate on the inside of the main entry door, the landlord may securely affix the notice on the outside of the main entry door.

subsection (d) is explicitly exempted from the notice requirements in (f), he could just show up and tell them to leave and then immediately file to have them removed. You're correct that he has no right to use violence to remove them, I don't think anyone is arguing that. Its also not clear by anything you posted that he isn't allowed to enter in cases of forcible entry and detainer, I believe you're again looking at rules for strictly forcible detainer.

This is kind of irrelevant though because you're correct this is NV, here's the appropriate statute, which doesn't look too much different, basically he doesn't have the right to evict them with force, but he had every right to go there and tell them to get the gently caress out.

quote:

NRS 40.240 Forcible detainer defined. Every person is guilty of a forcible detainer who either:
1. By force, or by menaces or threats of violence, unlawfully holds and keeps the possession of any real property, whether the same was acquired peaceably or otherwise; or
2. Who, in the nighttime, or during the absence of the occupant of any real property, unlawfully enters thereon, and who, after demand made for the surrender thereof, refuses for a period of 3 days to surrender the same to such former occupant. The occupant of real property within the meaning of this subsection is one who, within 5 days preceding such unlawful entry, was in the peaceable and undisturbed possession of such lands.
[1911 CPA � 645; RL � 5587; NCL � 9134]
...

NRS 40.320 Proof required of plaintiff and defendant on trial.
1. On the trial of any proceeding for any forcible entry or forcible detainer, the plaintiff shall only be required to show, in addition to the forcible entry or forcible detainer complained of, that the plaintiff was peaceably in the actual possession at the time of the forcible entry, or was entitled to possession at the time of the forcible detainer.
2. The defendant may show in defense that the defendant or the defendant�s ancestors, or those whose interest in such premises the defendant claims, have been in the quiet possession thereof for the space of 1 whole year together next before the commencement of the proceedings, and that the defendant�s interest therein is not then ended or determined, and such showing is a bar to the proceedings.
[1911 CPA � 653; RL � 5595; NCL � 9142]

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-040.html#NRS040Sec090

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:20

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

ElCondemn posted:

You're literally arguing if he can't see a threat he's in his right to use deadly force, what are you really saying if not that?

Literally, this:

ElCondemn posted:

I wasn't there so the situation may have looked different in person.

ElCondemn posted:

violence does not become justified because "he deserved it".

Did the man in the squatter shooting make that statement? Who said "he deserved it"? That's the kind of evidence that can be used to take down a self-defense case. But minus him making statements like that, how would you know what was going through his mind? Think of the cop that shot that 17 year old kid on his front porch for pulling out his wallet. In hindsight we all know the 17 year old was completely innocent and only had his wallet in his hand. But the cop got off because there's no way he knew any of that at the time. He was chasing an armed suspect and mistook the 17 year old for that suspect with a gun in his hand.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:26

Devor: Nov 30, 2004; Lurking more.

spacetoaster posted:

Literally, this:

Did the man in the squatter shooting make that statement? Who said "he deserved it"? That's the kind of evidence that can be used to take down a self-defense case. But minus him making statements like that, how would you know what was going through his mind? Think of the cop that shot that 17 year old kid on his front porch for pulling out his wallet. In hindsight we all know the 17 year old was completely innocent and only had his wallet in his hand. But the cop got off because there's no way he knew any of that at the time. He was chasing an armed suspect and mistook the 17 year old for that suspect with a gun in his hand.

Two neighbors testified Wednesday that Burgarello told them years earlier that he might arm himself and wait for people responsible for repeatedly vandalizing and burglarizing the vacant duplex.

"He told me, 'I'm going to be waiting inside with a gun,'" Kevin Morgan said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/wounded-woman-testifies-nevada-trespass-shooting-31343480

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:32

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

spacetoaster posted:

Think of the cop that shot that 17 year old kid on his front porch for pulling out his wallet. In hindsight we all know the 17 year old was completely innocent and only had his wallet in his hand. But the cop got off because there's no way he knew any of that at the time. He was chasing an armed suspect and mistook the 17 year old for that suspect with a gun in his hand.

Right, I agree, the cop should have confirmed the threat before killing an innocent person.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 18:56

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

So what about the those 250 Orange County DAs being barred from dealing with a case because of systemic conspiracy to undermine justice and all that perjury and poo poo?

# ? Jun 3, 2015 19:14

Ima Grip And Sip: Oct 19, 2014

Rhesus Pieces posted:

How about a ridiculous arrest to get the thread back on track? From the USPol thread:

Meh, low effort. The cops had nothing to do with those charges except serving the paperwork. Everything was filed by the school district. Thread status: still off the rails.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 19:48

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

GlyphGryph posted:

So what about the those 250 Orange County DAs being barred from dealing with a case because of systemic conspiracy to undermine justice and all that perjury and poo poo?

A few bad apples :v:

# ? Jun 3, 2015 19:50

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Trabisnikof posted:

A few bad apples

It's just a few bad barrels.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 19:52

hallebarrysoetoro: Jun 14, 2003

I'm personally a fan of the multi-page discussion about how semi-abandoned property being used as shelter, or vandalized, or whatever is less important than one human being who unironically no longer exists and another that will suffer from a lifetime of whatever injuries were caused by being shot :thumbsup:

Truly what a magical world we live in that the continued existence of inanimate structures that are no longer meaningfully used and are in a state of disrepair is so vital that permanently ending everything that makes a human to protect that structure is up for debate

hallebarrysoetoro fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 3, 2015

# ? Jun 3, 2015 19:59

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

ElCondemn posted:

Right, I agree, the cop should have confirmed the threat before killing an innocent person.

I'm sure you would have in this situation. But not everyone is psychic and brave as you are. :jerkbag:

# ? Jun 3, 2015 20:08

soundnthefury: Nov 14, 2004; Fist of the North Star

The investigation of the Tamir Rice shooting has taken its next step towards nobody being held responsible (probably).

quote:

Sheriff�s officials have completed their investigation into the killing of Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old Cleveland boy who was shot to death by police while holding a fake gun, a source confirmed to the Los Angeles Times.

A source with knowledge of the investigation, who asked not to be named because he was not permitted to speak about it, said the Cuyahoga County Sheriff�s investigation would be handed over to prosecutors Wednesday.

Prosecutors will in turn present the case to a grand jury, which will decide whether either of the two officers involved in the shooting should face criminal charges in Rice�s death.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-tamir-rice-investigation-complete-20150603-story.html

# ? Jun 3, 2015 20:11

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

soundnthefury posted:

The investigation of the Tamir Rice shooting has taken its next step towards nobody being held responsible (probably).

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-tamir-rice-investigation-complete-20150603-story.html

This article has a source saying the investigation found the shooting justified:

quote:

CLEVELAND - The Cuyahoga County Sheriff's investigation of the shooting of a 12-year-old boy at a Cleveland rec center concluded that the shooting was justified, a source familiar with the case told newsnet5.com.

The Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office has turned its investigation into the shooting of Tamir Rice over to the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office.

(http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooting-investigation-moves-to-cuyahoga-county-prosecutors-office?fd)

# ? Jun 3, 2015 20:16

Waco Panty Raid: Mar 30, 2002; I don't mind being a little pedantic.

Trabisnikof posted:

This article has a source saying the investigation found the shooting justified:

Another has the sheriff's office stating that no conclusion was reached (which would make sense since it is up to the prosecutor to press charges/submit to a grand jury).

http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2015/06/sheriffs_department_hands_over.html

quote:

Philip Angelo, special assistant to Cuyahoga County Sheriff Clifford Pinkney, said the report does not reach any conclusions about whether or not the shooting was justified.�

"We simply collected the evidence and the facts of the case and we turned those over to the prosecutor's office and they take it from there. There's no sort of guidance that we issue,"�Angelo said.�

# ? Jun 3, 2015 20:34

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

spacetoaster posted:

I'm sure you would have in this situation. But not everyone is psychic and brave as you are.

You got me, if I had made that mistake it would have been totally justified to kill an innocent person. That's what makes things ok, if I do it that means it's ok.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 20:37

oohhboy: Jun 8, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Maybe Cops should tighten their ROE little from "Shoot first, second and last" to "Return fire".

# ? Jun 3, 2015 20:44

Rhesus Pieces: Jun 27, 2005

Ima Grip And Sip posted:

Meh, low effort. The cops had nothing to do with those charges except serving the paperwork. Everything was filed by the school district. Thread status: still off the rails.

It's still an egregious abuse of the criminal justice system to have people arrested for "disturbing the peace" because they were overly boisterous at a HS graduation. The cops aren't at fault here but the superintendent should be loving ashamed of himself.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:01

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

oohhboy posted:

Maybe Cops should tighten their ROE little from "Shoot first, second and last" to "Return fire".

At this point I'd totally settle for just asking the suspect to drop their weapon first (and then giving them enough time to comprehend and respond) before killing them.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:05

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

ElCondemn posted:

You got me, if I had made that mistake it would have been totally justified to kill an innocent person.

Yes. This is sometimes legal and why we have a court system.

ElCondemn posted:

That's what makes things ok, if I do it that means it's ok.

This is not correct. You might, deep down, just want to hurt other people, but it has nothing to do with you having some special extrajudicial protection.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:05

Classtoise: Feb 11, 2008; THINKS CON-AIR WAS A GOOD MOVIE

spacetoaster posted:

I'm sure you would have in this situation. But not everyone is psychic and brave as you are.

"Show me some ID WOAH HE'S REACHING FOR SOMETHING!"

What a brave and noble man.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:10

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

spacetoaster posted:

I'm sure you would have in this situation. But not everyone is psychic and brave as you are.

Well, if they make a mistake because of their cowardice and take a life, they should go to prison.

Cowardice or lack of judgment should not be a defense for manslaughter or murder.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:13

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Ima Grip And Sip posted:

Meh, low effort. The cops had nothing to do with those charges except serving the paperwork. Everything was filed by the school district. Thread status: still off the rails.

Wait, so all I have to do is file some paperwork against people yelling in the street and the police are required to charge those people?

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:16

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

spacetoaster posted:

Yes. This is sometimes legal and why we have a court system.

Thank goodness I disagree with the law then, I think it's wrong to kill an innocent person at all. Especially if it's easily avoidable by not shooting at anything that moves when you're afraid.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:17

hallebarrysoetoro: Jun 14, 2003

Mosby blocking release of Gray autopsy in hilariously vain attempt not to taint potential jurors

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:21

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Baltimore commissioner doing live press conference about murder rate increase now.

e: ah, turns out it's all those drugs getting stolen from pharmacies and methadone clinics. People are getting hopped up on methadone and going on killing sprees.

woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jun 3, 2015

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:24

Mavric: Dec 14, 2006; I said "this is going to be the most significant televisual event since Quantum Leap." And I do not say that lightly.

Classtoise posted:

"Show me some ID WOAH HE'S REACHING FOR SOMETHING!"

What a brave and noble man.

As a reminder this isn't even hyperbole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:43

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

SedanChair posted:

Well, if they make a mistake because of their cowardice and take a life, they should go to prison.

Hey SedanChair!

I agree. Cowardice is the worst crime of all.

Classtoise posted:

"Show me some ID WOAH HE'S REACHING FOR SOMETHING!"

"He was coming right for us!"

Why do we even allow police to have guns at all?

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:45

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

spacetoaster posted:

Why do we even allow police to have guns at all?

They don't seem to need anyone's permission to do stuff like carry guns.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:49

ToastyPotato: Jun 23, 2005; CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

SedanChair posted:

Baltimore commissioner doing live press conference about murder rate increase now.

e: ah, turns out it's all those drugs getting stolen from pharmacies and methadone clinics. People are getting hopped up on methadone and going on killing sprees.

Funnily enough, in NYC, another place where police misconduct has been shoved into the limelight, there has also been a recent, heavily publicized uptick in shootings (note that they specifically say shootings and not murders.) This is also coming off of the heels of the recent work stoppage protest by the NYPD and police union contract negotiations. Before the massive wave of publicized shootings, the most recent disrespect to the NYPD was being denied 1000 new officers to fight terrorism.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 21:56

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

Rhesus Pieces posted:

It's still an egregious abuse of the criminal justice system to have people arrested for "disturbing the peace" because they were overly boisterous at a HS graduation. The cops aren't at fault here but the superintendent should be loving ashamed of himself.

The fine seems awfully excessive but getting kicked out not so much. Lots of schools have those sorts of rules and heavily enforce them for several reasons. The first is time, disruptions can add an hour or more. But more importantly it's a safety thing- if one family is shouting and the next family cannot hear their kids name you better believe fistfight s can occur.

It's also just plain lovely to everyone else. How you think a kid feels if it goes from a whole bunch of cheers to silence for their name?

Also the whole 'i was just loving my kid :qq:

' is complete bullshit, somehow 1000s of other parents managed to love their kids without getting kicked out. Only people who thought their precious snowflake should be treated differently than everyone else was removed.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 22:31

Rhesus Pieces: Jun 27, 2005

tsa posted:

The fine seems awfully excessive but getting kicked out not so much. Lots of schools have those sorts of rules and heavily enforce them for several reasons. The first is time, disruptions can add an hour or more. But more importantly it's a safety thing- if one family is shouting and the next family cannot hear their kids name you better believe fistfight s can occur.

It's also just plain lovely to everyone else. How you think a kid feels if it goes from a whole bunch of cheers to silence for their name?

Also the whole 'i was just loving my kid ' is complete bullshit, somehow 1000s of other parents managed to love their kids without getting kicked out. Only people who thought their precious snowflake should be treated differently than everyone else was removed.

Yes, I don't have a big issue with them getting kicked out of the ceremony if it was made clear to them not to cheer and they did anyway, but getting served with an arrest warrant for it is goddamn ridiculous.

# ? Jun 3, 2015 22:39

treasured8elief: Jul 25, 2011; Salad Prong

GlyphGryph posted:

So what about the those 250 Orange County DAs being barred from dealing with a case because of systemic conspiracy to undermine justice and all that perjury and poo poo?

Riverside county's office may also have such a problem. I dont remember seeing it in here, a prosecutor was called out by an appeals court for his office lying, I think its absolutely worth a watch with Orange county's situation in mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sCUrhgXjH4&t=952s

# ? Jun 3, 2015 22:45

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# ? May 29, 2024 16:02

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Rhesus Pieces posted:

Yes, I don't have a big issue with them getting kicked out of the ceremony if it was made clear to them not to cheer and they did anyway, but getting served with an arrest warrant for it is goddamn ridiculous.

No way all they did was cheer. This strikes me as one of those cases where when the court records get released it's going to be a story of a bunch of drunken assholes who decided to be combative instead of shutting the gently caress up and acting like adults.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jun 3, 2015

# ? Jun 3, 2015 23:29

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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