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Are you disputing the existence of school breakfast programs?
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Jun 4, 2015 07:58
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welp looks like first shift ended at the retard factory, GP is here to stretch the limits of embarassing grudges
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Jun 4, 2015 07:58
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Most studies DO show employment effects, almost all show price effects, and no one here had posted anything showing the famous demand effect you keep talking about Maybe you're confusing me with someone else, I was just trying to make a joke in the post you quoted. However, as indicated in the graph above (with real data no less!) the minimum wage has a more complex interaction with factors like unemployment than you seem to be willing to admit. So complex, in fact, that when we've raised it in the past we've not seen large changes to unemployment as a whole. I would even go so far as to argue, because of the historical precedent it would be disingenuous to claim "increasing the minimum wage causes unemployment". But that won't stop you from making those kinds of claims. Even if you ignore the past and still make those claims, whatever negative impact imparted by an increased minimum wage has clearly not left us all in a worse position. Considering unemployment is down in spite of all the increases we've made over the years. Even if you claim it was "negative" it's actually turned out positive, can't argue with results... though you'll probably try. I don't really have anything to say about demand, since that's not a simple relationship with minimum wage either. Nothing I've seen claims increasing the minimum wage decreases demand. I would like to point out though that because the minimum wage has had such little effect to unemployment I'd guess employment is driven mainly by some other force. It is entirely possible that increasing the minimum wage to the point where we've reached hyper inflation and money means nothing anymore that it might have little to no effect on employment. And even if it did it wouldn't matter and the poor wouldn't be in a worse position than they are today.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:15
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Most studies DO show employment effects, almost all show price effects Yeah, some of them even show that unemployment decreases. When you look at the studies as an ensemble there is a net effect of 0 in both categories. That's what happens when you finally take enough data to beat down the noise: the minimum wage hasn't had these negative effects. You can keep cherry-picking data, but that doesn't make you right.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:38
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Going back to the Hamilton study he predicted relatively minor price increases jumping the minimum wage to $10, while this difference would obviously increase as the wage increase goes closer to $15, it doesn't seem like would still be a disastrous difference.
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Jun 4, 2015 10:31
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I think non-minimum wage Americans decided that between paying slightly more for retail service etc. and giving minimum wagers more, they picked the former. It's a fair societal choice, unfortunate for minimum wagers.
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Jun 4, 2015 10:57
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shrike82 posted:I think non-minimum wage Americans decided that between paying slightly more for retail service etc. and giving minimum wagers more, they picked the former. In what way is it a fair societal choice? Am I reading you wrong?
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Jun 4, 2015 10:59
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Overwhelming majorities of Americans in multiple different polls support large increases to the minimum wage. They want it, the issue is that at least the federal government isn't giving it to them (although local/state governments are).
Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 12:37
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wateroverfire posted:And to call a wage below that arbitrary threshold unethical? What if a company can't afford to pay to that arbitrary standard? The owner of that business is...what...unethical because she's not ingenious enough or working hard enough to provide for all the needs and wants of her employees? A business that cannot afford to pay its necessary labor sufficiently well that they can live on the proceeds of their work is economically unsupportable, and needs to be allowed to fail and be replaced with a more efficient enterprise that can. The sole exception to this is public services, whose wage gaps are properly subsudized directly from the public purse.
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Jun 4, 2015 12:48
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The polls you mention just pose a "do you want a higher minimum wages" in a vacuum without mentioning the trade-offs. Not to mention, polls on specific topics are misleading. Let's have a look at how many people supported the Iraq War in 2003-2004.
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Jun 4, 2015 12:48
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shrike82 posted:The polls you mention just pose a "do you want a higher minimum wages" in a vacuum without mentioning the trade-offs. The trade-offs being minimal impacts on prices and employment, and the polls were right about people supporting the Iraq War, just their views changed over time. A lot of people regretted supporting the war in the first place. Basically, people support it and they are right to support it and the only real argument against a minimum wage if we raised it so quickly that we didn't have enough data. However, you can use phase it and fix the issue. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 13:14
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shrike82 posted:Not to mention, polls on specific topics are misleading. Let's have a look at how many people supported the Iraq War in 2003-2004. ?
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Jun 4, 2015 14:09
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The Mother of All Non-sequiturs. Polygynous fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 14:56
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Liquid Communism posted:A business that cannot afford to pay its necessary labor sufficiently well that they can live on the proceeds of their work is economically unsupportable, and needs to be allowed to fail and be replaced with a more efficient enterprise that can. The sole exception to this is public services, whose wage gaps are properly subsudized directly from the public purse. Businesses are funcitoning just fine with their current wage structure and their employees manifestly are able to make it work, with varying degrees of comfort, on what they earn. Why is your arbitrary compensation standard the thing that should decide whether that arrangement's acceptable? And if you think it's possible to be more efficient and etc why aren't you out there pushing the economic dinosaurs to extinction?
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Jun 4, 2015 15:11
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wateroverfire posted:Businesses are funcitoning just fine with their current wage structure and their employees manifestly are able to make it work, with varying degrees of comfort, on what they earn. Why is your arbitrary compensation standard the thing that should decide whether that arrangement's acceptable? Making them pay better wages seems like a good way to go about that.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:15
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Liquid Communism posted:A business that cannot afford to pay its necessary labor sufficiently well that they can live on the proceeds of their work is economically unsupportable, and needs to be allowed to fail and be replaced with a more efficient enterprise that can. The sole exception to this is public services, whose wage gaps are properly subsudized directly from the public purse. You phrase this as if it makes economic sense but it doesn't. If a business is able to take inputs worth X and produce outputs worth more than X then it's sustainable. X from an economic perspective is determined by supply relative to demand. Not what you want it to be.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:48
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asdf32 posted:You phrase this as if it makes economic sense but it doesn't. If a business is able to take inputs worth X and produce outputs worth more than X then it's sustainable. In a completely free economy perhaps, but in a controlled economy we also consider things like "is able to abide by laws" and stuff.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:58
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wateroverfire posted:Businesses are funcitoning just fine with their current wage structure and their employees manifestly are able to make it work, with varying degrees of comfort, on what they earn. Yes, businesses are just fine - consistently reporting record profits quarter over quarter. Employees on the other hand are not able to make it work, and if they were then this discussion wouldn't be happening; do you think people are pulling these arguments out of their rear end for the sake of arguing?
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Jun 4, 2015 16:09
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Chalets the Baka posted:Yes, businesses are just fine - consistently reporting record profits quarter over quarter. Employees on the other hand are not able to make it work, and if they were then this discussion wouldn't be happening; do you think people are pulling these arguments out of their rear end for the sake of arguing? Ah are you new to D&D? This forum is a bunch of extremely priviledged young white people, single or dual income with no kids, passionately effort posting about hard it is without having a clue or any awareness of what "not making it work" looks like.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:37
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Liquid Communism posted:A business that cannot afford to pay its necessary labor sufficiently well that they can live on the proceeds of their work is economically unsupportable, and needs to be allowed to fail and be replaced with a more efficient enterprise that can. This assertion is false. Not all people are capable of producing as much economic value as is required to support their life. A business which employs these people at a wage which equals their productivity is not necessarily inefficient. Popular Thug Drink posted:welp looks like first shift ended at the retard factory Are you reclaiming this slur too? Here's a hint: Liberals should be concerned with helping oppressed people, and should avoid reinforcing that oppression because they got mad on the internet. Zeitgueist posted:The Laffer Curve analogy was intentional, not opportunistic. Someone's trying to forward a sketchy, questionable idea and giving it a graph so it seems like more that it is, and then gets snippy when asked to provide any sort of support. You apparently don't understand the idea communicated in the graph because literally no one disagrees with it. You've just been proven wrong so many times in this thread that you've latched onto this moronic point in a panic and you refuse to let go. Zeitgueist posted:Yes I remember when Marx ms painted a graph and got pissy when people asked him to back it up. If I make a graph in MS paint showing a positive correlation between the passage of time and the immiseration of the proletariat, does that somehow disprove Marxism? There's no empirical data proving that, either, because we cannot have empirical data about things which have not happened yet. Absurd Alhazred posted:Graphs can be used to illustrate data. Graphs in themselves, without numbers tied to them, are only data if they are what you are gathering in your experiment/survey/research. For example, say you are surveying visual expression practices among amateur economists. Graphs can be used to express the relationship between two or more things. That is often, but not always, in the form of numerical data. The graph is this paragraph in visual form. quote:The minimum wage has positive and negative effects. At low minimum wage levels, the positive effects are dominant and increasing. As the minimum wage grows, it reaches a point where (positive effects) - (negative effects) is at a maximum. Beyond that point the negative effects begin growing faster than positive effects, and at a sufficiently high level of minimum wage, the negative effects begin to dominate.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:45
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What a weird bizarro-world argument. "You privileged people don't know the struggles of the poor. Despite what you think in your ivory tower, the poor are actually making it work just fine and don't need any more money thank you very much!" My best friend whored himself out to gross old men to get enough money to leave Waco, Texas because an HEB bakery salary wasn't cutting it, can he talk about how the poor make it work? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 16:45
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wateroverfire posted:Ah are you new to D&D? I have a kid on th way.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:49
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VitalSigns posted:What a weird bizarro-world argument. The streets look pretty clean when you are looking from a skyrise.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:51
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asdf32 posted:I have a kid on th way.  Congratulations dude!
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Jun 4, 2015 16:53
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wateroverfire posted:Ah are you new to D&D? quoth the guy who brags about how much money he makes in the time it takes to post
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Jun 4, 2015 17:08
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wateroverfire posted:In the like past 5 minutes of posting I made maybe $200.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:09
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asdf32 posted:I have a kid on th way. also congratulations on your loving Intellectual Child
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Jun 4, 2015 17:25
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asdf32 posted:I have a kid on th way. Hope (s)he takes after her mother :P Good luck!
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Jun 4, 2015 17:27
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wateroverfire posted:Ah are you new to D&D? And if that doesn't describe someone, do they get to have opinions or what?
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Jun 4, 2015 17:28
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Another expert on poor America chiming in. All I'll say, since apparently you stay mashing the report button if anyone says too much, is that there is no irony cat big enough Lol yeah that's me, moderator darling.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:50
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archangelwar posted:And if that doesn't describe someone, do they get to have opinions or what? They don't exist, because if they did they would be harder to dismiss and he's been making that same complaint for literally years. I mean, what I'd he had to reevaluate his views?!
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Jun 4, 2015 17:53
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asdf32 posted:I have a kid on th way.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:00
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JeffersonClay posted:Graphs can be used to express the relationship between two or more things. That is often, but not always, in the form of numerical data. But it doesn't because you made it poorly. Also, data can be more than just numbers, yes -- but largely speaking data is very concrete. It becomes information once you start analyzing it. If you need proof you made a bad graph: that collection of words conveys the core message better and quicker than your MS Paint.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:10
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Who What Now posted:
Oh come on. My parents have way way shittier right-wing views than anything asdf32 has ever said, and look how great I turned out.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:12
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asdf32 posted:I have a kid on th way. Congrats. =) Is the little person going to be ghjk32 or asdf33?
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Jun 4, 2015 18:15
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:But it doesn't because you made it poorly. If you don't think the graph shows exactly what the paragraph states, or it takes you a lot longer to glean information from the graph than the paragraph, maybe you are just bad at graphs.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:18
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VitalSigns posted:My best friend whored himself out to gross old men to get enough money to leave Waco, Texas because an HEB bakery salary wasn't cutting it, can he talk about how the poor make it work? Link his backpage ad and I may consider it. archangelwar posted:And if that doesn't describe someone, do they get to have opinions or what? People don't need my permission to have opinions. OwlFancier posted:Making them pay better wages seems like a good way to go about that. If they're dinosaurs and "it" can be done so much more efficiently then why not go out and do it? You can take your administrator's wage and your model of "it" will spread throughout the market supplanting the bad old inefficient ways.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:19
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JeffersonClay posted:If you don't think the graph shows exactly what the paragraph states, or it takes you a lot longer to glean information from the graph than the paragraph, maybe you are just bad at graphs. The fact that multiple people have told you that it doesn't isn't a coincidence. I know that coming to accept that you maybe, might have, messed up is hard. But admitting that is the first step in people taking you seriously. 
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Jun 4, 2015 18:20
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wateroverfire posted:If they're dinosaurs and "it" can be done so much more efficiently then why not go out and do it? You can take your administrator's wage and your model of "it" will spread throughout the market supplanting the bad old inefficient ways. I'm not sure that people would give me absolute control of all world economies because I ask them nicely.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:22
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JeffersonClay posted:If you don't think the graph shows exactly what the paragraph states, or it takes you a lot longer to glean information from the graph than the paragraph, maybe you are just bad at graphs. Is it at all possible that you may be bad at graphs? Like, think for a second, if nobody knows what you're trying to say and it's not clear until you use words... does that really mean everyone else is stupid?
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Jun 4, 2015 18:23
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