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mlmp08 posted:The FBI has found that the most effective victim response to being targeted by violent crime is a firearm. Note: Offer does not apply if your skin color is anything but white. If your skin color is anything but white, or your religion is anything but Christian (and occasionally Jewish), then you can and will be shot in "self defense," likely by the police.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:08
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SpeedGem posted:Also, if you're wearing headphones and pull up youre sagging shorts, you gonna die. Yeah, about that... http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/31772096 posted:On Aug. 11, Salt Lake police were called to a report of a possible man with a gun near 2100 South and State Street. A witness claimed three men were flashing a gun in the area. Remember how we just spent a dozen pages talking about how people can make entirely reasonable assessments of a threat that later turn out to be wrong? VVV Even if he somehow missed the two cruisers with running lights, he looks at and then verbally responds the officer on the tape, so I'd say we can give the "but he just couldn't hear!" bit a rest Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 03:16
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SpeedGem posted:Also, if you're wearing headphones and pull up youre sagging shorts, you gonna die.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:Remember how we just spent a dozen pages talking about how people can make entirely reasonable assessments of a threat that later turn out to be wrong?
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Jun 5, 2015 03:23
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tezcat posted:Hey Jarmak & mlmp08 and all the others trying to pull attention away from stuff like this. Do you guys think this was a good shoot? Do you see something like this happening to you? I mean the guy shot was white and listening to music when he was shot dead. The officer isn't being charged. It was a good shoot. Sad, but the guys response to seeing guns pointed at him was to reach into his waistband with one hand, pull his shirt up with the other, and then yank his hand out of his waistband. Tell me what he was doing there didn't look like a stereotypical "gang member draws gun". If you had posted that video without any commentary I would have assumed he did actually have a gun from his motion alone.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:29
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semper wifi posted:It was a good shoot. Sad, but the guys response to seeing guns pointed at him was to reach into his waistband, pull his shirt up while yanking his other hand out of his waistband. Tell me what he was doing there didn't look like a stereotypical "gang member draws gun". If you had posted that video without any commentary I would have assumed he did actually have a gun from his motion alone. He showed the cops he wasn't carrying a a gun, the cops assumed he was carrying, cops shot him. Are you daft?
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Jun 5, 2015 03:31
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semper wifi posted:Tell me what he was doing there didn't look like a stereotypical "gang member draws gun". Looks to me like hes showing he doesn't have anything in his waistband and is making his hands visible but haha that would be crazy right?
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Jun 5, 2015 03:31
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Dead Reckoning posted:Yeah, about that... No. I remember a discussion about how trigger happy assholes get to pretend they were scared after the fact and get away with murder.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:31
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SpeedGem posted:He showed the cops he wasn't carrying a a gun, the cops assumed he was carrying, cops shot him. Are you daft? A Lamer posted:Looks to me like hes showing he doesn't have anything in his waistband and is making his hands visible but haha that would be crazy right? Yeah good points guys, you're right. The last time I got pulled over, when the cop got up to my window the first thing I did was lunge for the glovebox so that I could show him I didn't have a gun in there.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:34
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Also just to be clear, obviously the cops had no reason to have their guns out in the first place, even if the call they got was legit. But getting mad that they shot a guy who went for his waistband as soon as he noticed he had guns pointed at him is stupid.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:36
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tezcat posted:mlmp08 and all the others trying to pull attention away from stuff like this. Do you guys think this was a good shoot? Do you see something like this happening to you? I mean the guy shot was white and listening to music when he was shot dead. The officer isn't being charged. Hey, do you realize my post history is largely about how loving awful the police are and how broken their culture is and how they kill way too many people and how violence in America is totally hosed compared with the rest of the Western world? My only posts in this godawful thread that seem contrary to that at all were ones about how maybe we shouldn't abandon due process because some likely bad guys got off the hook and how talking about how everyone should have magical abilities against attacks is stupid. After watching the video, I would really like to think that I would not have shot if I were in that position (It is impossible to know unless you're there). But holy poo poo, when a US cop has his gun on you and is yelling at you to show your hands and your response is to say "Nah, fool" as you turn to face the cop and lift your shirt up, that poo poo is super high risk. We can talk about how that shouldn't be super high risk, but goddamn that is some high risk behavior.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:37
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tezcat posted:Do you guys think this was a good shoot?
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Jun 5, 2015 03:38
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semper wifi posted:Yeah good points guys, you're right. The last time I got pulled over, when the cop got up to my window the first thing I did was lunge for the glovebox so that I could show him I didn't have a gun in there. Hey idiot actual people do this all the time and aren't immediately murdered.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:39
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Police kill teen, now are suspected of deleting video & threatening witnesses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIaeoJFyVTE&feature=youtu.be The beat goes on.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:39
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If a police officer interprets actions as life threatening, and a reasonable person under the same circumstances would also interpret those actions as life threatening, does it matter that there was no actual threat, just the reasonable interpretation of one?
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Jun 5, 2015 03:41
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:If a police officer interprets actions as life threatening, and a reasonable person under the same circumstances would also interpret those actions as life threatening, does it matter that there was no actual threat, just the reasonable interpretation of one? Might as well make all police officers judge dread. Else a homicide rate in your city will rise.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:43
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:If a police officer interprets actions as life threatening, and a reasonable person under the same circumstances would also interpret those actions as life threatening, does it matter that there was no actual threat, just the reasonable interpretation of one? It obviously does not matter if the threat was not actually real.* If a guy rushes a cop and yells "Imma kill some pigs tonight" while firing an assault rifle that's only loaded with blanks and thus isn't a real threat, the cops are still justified in turning him to meatmulch. *The HUGE caveat is that a lot of people base how "reasonable" fear is on poo poo like classism, racism, stupid myths about who is or isn't dangerous, the assumption that everyone in America has a gun, everyone sees wallets as a gun, sees phones as guns, etc.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:49
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:If a police officer interprets actions as life threatening, and a reasonable person under the same circumstances would also interpret those actions as life threatening, does it matter that there was no actual threat, just the reasonable interpretation of one? That is a pretty succinct summary of a recent argument in this very thread. My position is that no, the lack of an actual deadly threat is irrelevant if there is the reasonable perception of one. For example, the guy who drew an airsoft pistol with the orange tip removed on two SFPD officers outside a station back in January. But this is very much relevant as well: mlmp08 posted:*The HUGE caveat is that a lot of people base how "reasonable" fear is on poo poo like classism, racism, stupid myths about who is or isn't dangerous, the assumption that everyone in America has a gun, everyone sees wallets as a gun, sees phones as guns, etc. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 03:50
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Reasonable threat including things like a pearl-clutcher calling 911 and saying "there's a man with a hoody and sagging pants and I'm sure I saw a gun, please get him officer!"
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Jun 5, 2015 03:56
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ActusRhesus posted:What are the crime stats in places with restrictive gun laws? Start with Chicago. NYC has restrictive gun laws and one of the lowest violent crime rates of any big city in the country. As for Chicago, it has restrictive gun laws too, and it doesn't have low crime, but it isn't even close to the worst for a big american city. At the same time there are plenty of cities in states with much more relaxed gun laws, that have similar or higher crime rates than Chicago (or NYC, or a multitude of other cities in states with more restrictive gun laws). Houston, Memphis, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Miami, Kansas City, Tulsa, and Oklahoma City, for example. Violent crime rate per 100k residents, as of 2012, for the cities I mentioned: St. Louis - 1,776.5 Memphis - 1,750.3 Kansas City - 1,263.2 Indianapolis - 1,185.5 Miami - 1,172.0 Houston - 992.5 Tulsa - 990.0 Chicago - 969.2 (plus probably a couple dozen incidents more for rape, which are N/A in the stats, so a total of around 1,000 incidents) Oklahoma City - 919.1 NYC - 639.3 (which should be one of the worst, along with Chicago, according to your logic, because of their more restrictive gun laws) source: http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm Maybe crime rates have to do with things other than gun laws! It's funny/depressing that you work in the justice system and consider yourself a smart dude, but you don't even know this poo poo, and tried to play the "Chicago has strict gun laws and is so extra scary and dangerous and bad!" card like some dumb loving Fox news reporter. And looking records up really isn't hard. I'm some random dude on a comedy forum, and managed to do it over the internet in 10 minutes.
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Jun 5, 2015 04:01
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I think you and him have the same argument bro
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Jun 5, 2015 04:05
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semper wifi posted:I think you and him have the same argument bro No, not really. Look at his post, and the one he's responding to.
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Jun 5, 2015 04:06
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I thought this quote was telling: "I was scared to death. The last thought I had go through my mind when I pulled the trigger, and I'll never forget this … was that I was too late. I was too late. And because of that, I was gonna get killed. Worse, my (partner) was gonna get killed." That just reminds me of this clip It's the siege mentality, the assumption that EVERY contact contact with a civilian is immediately a life or death threat. While in that specific case, the mindset is more understandable - but I think the point still stands, the call to 911 said someone was "flashing" a gun, not threatening people or firing it. But that little voice in the officer's head saying that everyone could be a stone cold killer lead him to approach a non-violent situation with a gun drawn and his brain already in firefight mode. I also find it morbidly funny that people are saying that the person who was shot should have just know exactly what things to do in a situation where you're being threatened at gunpoint. Only one of the people in that shooting was a professional, why is the expectation of perfect behavior on the civilian? The general population shouldn't be expected to know exactly how to behave when faced with being held at gunpoint by police, when this is never taught in public school in official capacity, and popular media often shows behavior that doesn't square with real-life threat assessment policies. Maybe public schools should have a "here's how not to get shot by police" class. Push that in more affluent, white areas and maybe more widespread awareness of how absolutely hosed policing is would permeate out. ATP_Power fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 04:06
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mlmp08 posted:If a guy rushes and yells "Imma kill some pigs tonight" while firing an assault rifle that's only loaded with blanks and thus isn't a real threat, the cops are still justified in turning him to meatmulch. Can't bring my cop friends to the boar hunt 
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Jun 5, 2015 04:10
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ATP_Power posted:I also find it morbidly funny that people are saying that the person who was shot should have just know exactly what things to do in a situation where you're being threatened at gunpoint. Only one of the people in that shooting was a professional, why is the expectation of perfect behavior on the civilian? The general population shouldn't be expected to know exactly how to behave when faced with being held at gunpoint by police, when this is never taught in public school in official capacity, and popular media often shows behavior that doesn't square with real-life threat assessment policies. Anyone who needs to be told to not stick their hands into their waistband as a response to an at-gunpoint "hands up" shouldn't be out in public without a helper.
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Jun 5, 2015 04:11
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semper wifi posted:Anyone who needs to be told to not stick their hands into their waistband as a response to an at-gunpoint "hands up" shouldn't be out in public without a helper. If stupidity is all it takes then why are you still alive.
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Jun 5, 2015 04:17
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So cops, many of whom have only 60 hours of community college and a few months at ann academy, are susceptible to biases and prejudices based off their own socio cultural economic background, and that influences how they react in a given situation? I doubt many people in the world can claim to be better than that, unfortunately. I know I react differently to individuals whom I meet for the first time based off my perception of them, which is by default formed from my knowledge of other members of (what I perceive to be) their race/class/culture. I'm not proud of it, but it's something I think everyone does. That said, some cops just be murdering folk.
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Jun 5, 2015 04:30
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semper wifi posted:Anyone who needs to be told to not stick their hands into their waistband as a response to an at-gunpoint "hands up" shouldn't be out in public without a helper. Hey ace, remember when you were all going on about how Freddie Grey was the really the only person to blame for his execution at the hands of Baltimore PD? This more than confirms that anything besides "falls to the ground, hands open and outstretched" is appropriately threatening enough to deserve being gunned down in your book, you prancing coward. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 04:39
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Look, if you don't just immediately fling your hands in the air and collapse to the ground begging not to be murdered, you really deserved to die. Edit: In all seriousness, when you're in a situation where you're claiming that it's justifiable to kill someone without a weapon just for putting their hands on the wrong part of their body or doing anything that even slightly looks like drawing a gun, you should start considering whether or not you might be the bad guy in a dystopian novel. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 04:45
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Hey ace, remember when you were all going on about how Freddie Grey was the really the only person to blame for his execution at the hands of Baltimore PD? This more than confirms that anything besides "falls to the ground, hands open and outstretched" is appropriately threatening enough to deserve being gunned down in your book, you prancing coward. Jury's still out on Freddie as far as I'm concerned. Last I remember it turned out that the police actually had no cause to go after him, but nobody actually knows how or why he died. Baltimore DA is trying to block the release of the autopsy though so it probably contains some bad news for the "rough ride" theorists. Also I have really limited sympathy for anyone who fights the police because everyone knows how they operate, if you start fighting or resisting them you already know how it's going to end. It doesn't make the police less bad but it does make it harder to feel bad for you. chitoryu12 posted:Look, if you don't just immediately fling your hands in the air and collapse to the ground begging not to be murdered, you really deserved to die. Honestly I read posts like this and it makes me wonder - do you ever watch these videos and put yourself in the cops shoes (or the victims) or do you exclusively monday morning quarterback them?
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Jun 5, 2015 04:54
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semper wifi posted:Honestly I read posts like this and it makes me wonder - do you ever watch these videos and put yourself in the cops shoes (or the victims) or do you exclusively monday morning quarterback them? Have you ever actually had a gun pointed at you?
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Jun 5, 2015 05:02
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SpeedGem posted:Also, if you're wearing headphones and pull up youre sagging shorts, you gonna die. Did any of them actually have a gun on them? Either I missed it or it wasn't in the articles.
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Jun 5, 2015 05:05
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Rah! posted:NYC has restrictive gun laws and one of the lowest violent crime rates of any big city in the country. My point was that gun laws and crime rates are not necessarily linked. Banning guns will not reduce crime, eg Chicago and Newark. Allowing guns won't either. E.g. Cities on that list with permissive gun laws. It's almost like contrary to what either side of the gun debate wants you to believe, crime has more to do with socioeconomic factors. Go figure.
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Jun 5, 2015 05:14
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Woozy posted:Have you ever actually had a gun pointed at you? Yes. LAPD circa 2001
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Jun 5, 2015 05:15
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SpeedGem posted:Also, if you're wearing headphones and pull up youre sagging shorts, you gonna die. Your country's police and legal system is absolute garbage, wow. Of course there will be endless apologists for this disgusting poo poo. Completely innocent man minding his own business? Well he didn't react quickly enough to a surprise situation so totes legit! - says DeadReckoning (complete poo poo example of a human being) You can even tell the murderer was only concerned about covering his own rear end by trying to find anything to make his murder justifiable, but as we can see even the slightest inkling of "something" is enough. Oh yeah and lets not forget that he has a dead innocent man cuffed the whole time. loving sub-human behaviour and Dead Reckoning thinking this is totally acceptable is disgusting. Oh wow I absolutely love how the other cop that comes up at the end of the vid is only concerned about how the murderer is feeling. Absolutely sickening. Agrajag fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 05:36
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ActusRhesus posted:My point was that gun laws and crime rates are not necessarily linked. Banning guns will not reduce crime, eg Chicago and Newark. Allowing guns won't either. E.g. Cities on that list with permissive gun laws. It's almost like contrary to what either side of the gun debate wants you to believe, crime has more to do with socioeconomic factors. Go figure. "Crime rates" is the key word here. America is a country that has lawyered its way into saying that shooting people is legal. What might be more interesting to compare is firearm deaths. Certainly, America has a much higher rate of firearm deaths than Australia. State by state is more complicated (if you can buy a gun in New Mexico there isn't much stopping you from taking it to New York) but if you wanted to compare anyway there's a site here: http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/
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Jun 5, 2015 05:39
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Woozy posted:Have you ever actually had a gun pointed at you? I'm willing to bet I've pointed guns at more people than semper fi. The difference is that I made the decision not to pull the trigger on an unarmed person.
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Jun 5, 2015 05:48
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The time it takes to even process and react to whats going on when that happens is way longer that anyone gets in this shooting videos. Like the first thing you get warned about in any gun safety/taining program is that you're going to see what you expect to see and not necessarily what is actually there and its just super obvious to anyone being remotely honest that this is whats happening in almost every shooting video posted in this thread.
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Jun 5, 2015 05:53
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Agrajag posted:Your country's police and legal system is absolute garbage, wow. Of course there will be endless apologists for this disgusting poo poo. How can this kind of thing happen, it looks like a gang shooting. The guy walks up behind him and just guns him down, it looked like an execution. Edit: I've got to say, these officer cams really give a sense of presence. It's like watching a first person view of an execution, it's really hard to watch. ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 05:53
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Look you can't go in after the fact and armchair quarterback a scared man fighting for his life, just because the person he shot had a flashlight or "absolutely nothing". Now let me tell you how a single misstep or deviation from perfect rationality is all it takes for the victim of a shooting to deserve it.
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