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42 homicides in Baltimore in May alone, nearly half of the 100+ homicides there all year, since the city arrested six police officers for murder and the police force have lost confidence in their commissioner and leadership. Apparently the worst murder rate since the 70s actually. That's horrible. All the rioters kept saying they wanted the police out of their neighborhoods, and it sounds like that's what the cops did, and now its probably descended into all out gang warfare almost immediately. Not exactly surprising.
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Jun 5, 2015 11:38
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Stop posting fox news soundbites.
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Jun 5, 2015 11:39
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Weird, it's almost like destroying the public's faith in the legal system by leaving enforcement up to a corrupt murderous organization until everything finally boils over is bad for law and order, who'da thunk
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Jun 5, 2015 11:40
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blarzgh posted:I'm so sick and twisted because I'm not a hard-line neo-liberal anarchistic... You haven't been given nearly enough poo poo about this idiotic word dump. Here is a book for you: https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Brief_History_of_Neoliberalism.html?id=F5DZvEVt890C&hl=en ActusRhesus posted:36 seconds is actually quite a long time. Count it out right now. In 36 seconds I can get out of bed, walk into my bathroom, undress, turn on the shower and start shampooing. You just proved a point, because you were performing learned robotic actions automatically. You didn't have headphones in and no one was yelling at you and pointing a gun at you. I doubt you were feeling a lot of stress, but what is a stress reaction, really? Pohl fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 11:40
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Statistics of a rapid rise in homicide rates is a Fox News soundbite? I'm actually reading CNN coverage about police and criminal justice. Here's another one. http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/02/us/crime-in-america/ I'm not even a cop loving conservative or anything, but I think gang violence, drug dealing, and recruitment of young people is a much, much worse problem in American cities than lovely police. Gangs are real and have killed a poo poo ton of people in Baltimore after burning down many businesses and stealing loads of prescription drugs, making the city extremely unsafe in the wake of the riots. Maybe race riots can actually.. make a city worse? The conversation of why American cities are hosed up has been dominated by bad police lately, and people like Rudolph Giuliani who actually made NYC much safer, when they speak about the other side of the story are immediately labeled racists, which is very ignorant I think. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 11:44
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Tell me how you think race riots start. 
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Jun 5, 2015 12:02
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Pohl posted:You haven't been given nearly enough poo poo about this idiotic word dump. Ok. Are you actually saying 36 seconds is NOT a long time? Seriously. Count it out.
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Jun 5, 2015 12:13
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Starshark posted:Tell me how you think race riots start. I grew up next to Newark, the memory of the 1967 Newark Riot riots looms large there. Here is a wonderful four part series on the people and events of the city before during and after by the Newark-based Star-Ledger. Worth a read, its full of personality and sympathy but undercut with the sadness of a failed city. http://blog.nj.com/ledgernewark/2007/07/crossroads_part_1.html The looting, targeted arson and destruction of usually white owned businesses and stealing of booze/drugs is what separates protest or general unrest from a classic American race riot I'd say. They get drunk off stolen liquor then burn crap down cuz they're drunk, its how all the fires start. Witnesses in Baltimore saw all this happen with people walking around with open liquor they happily looted from the corner store. Honestly I think race riots are usually just an excuse of a bunch of fed up out of work people to steal liquor and drugs and crap too but quickly escalate into violence. Couple old guys interviewed for that Newark article admit they just wanted to steal booze and thought it was funny at first, until the National Guard started shooting indiscriminately after a couple days. Back in the day like in Newark it was undisciplined National Guard teenagers massacring women and children, but nowadays we have gangs that have enough firepower to shoot up cities all by themselves. No one's even responded to the massive rise in homicide in Baltimore after the riots. Very ironic I think once the cops stop going after "black men" standing on street corners who they suspect of selling drugs, that rival gangs take over and just kill the same black guy standing around instead for territorial expansion. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 12:19
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I thought 36 seconds is so fast we can't expect a cop to visually confirm a gun is present. Now those 36 seconds offer a long stretch for somber and deliberate consideration? Do baggy shorts give you bullet-time?
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Jun 5, 2015 12:21
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VitalSigns posted:I thought 36 seconds is so fast we can't expect a cop to visually confirm a gun is present. Now those 36 seconds offer a long stretch for somber and deliberate consideration? No but they give you lots of room to strap a gun to your waist. That's why the police thought he was reaching for a handgun, making the physical motion of drawing a weapon out of your shorts is probably gonna get you shot no matter your skin color. VitalSigns posted:Weird, it's almost like destroying the public's faith in the legal system by leaving enforcement up to a corrupt murderous organization until everything finally boils over is bad for law and order, who'da thunk By corrupt murderous organization, do you mean the Bloods, Crips, and other gangs? If so, you're definitely correct.
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Jun 5, 2015 12:30
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What's the purpose of pointing out that 36 seconds is longer that we think when according the the surveillance the officer shot him 3 seconds after he started barking orders?
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Jun 5, 2015 12:32
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You're right. When someone has a reasonable belief that another person is in the process of pulling a deadly weapon on them, clearly more than the amount of time it takes for most commercial advertisers to feel they have effectively communicated a sales pitch is needed. So what, in your opinion, is the minimum amount of time a person operating under the reasonable belief that they are about to get shot should wait before reacting? A minute? An hour?
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Jun 5, 2015 12:32
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Radish posted:What's the purpose of pointing out that 36 seconds is longer that we think when according the the surveillance the officer shot him 3 seconds after he started barking orders? Because the thread kept mentioning 36 seconds.
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Jun 5, 2015 12:34
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ActusRhesus posted:Because the thread kept mentioning 36 seconds. 36 seconds was being mentioned as a short time in which to sentence a non violent person not in the process of committing a crime to death but the actually decision to kill Taylor took place over 3 from when the officer started yelling at him to him turning around with his hands in his pockets and then being shot so it's worse than that. Saying that 36 seconds is a long time is irrelevant because even if it DID take 36 seconds Taylor was still killed while unarmed and the "threatened" defense is once again laughable. I know that the response to that will be "how much time should the police give before they get killed?" and the answer is I don't know but maybe coming up behind a man not paying attention and not breaking the law and killing him isn't the result we should just shrug our shoulders and say is all we can expect. It's just another example of a person creating a situation where they are legalizing a homicide. There's lots of hand wringing about how are these killers, police or not, supposed to know if the person they are confronting is going for a gun and they have to make a split second choice about protecting their own life or facing judicial punishment and how terrible that is for them. However there is absolutely no thought for the people like Taylor or the squatters that are supposed to act 100% "non-threatening," which has no real definition, after being either awoken in the middle of the night or yelled at randomly on the street while being totally within the law. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 12:51
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Smoothrich posted:What is this thread's reaction? I felt like lots of the left wing commentators don't even think gang violence and opportunistic criminals in a riot scenario are even real things and just blame white people/cops/racism for everything. I'd say as lovely as the NYPD was with its temper tantrum against de Blasio, even NYPD cops weren't willing to slow walk violent felonies and homicides the way the Baltimore PD is doing out of spite.
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Jun 5, 2015 12:55
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ActusRhesus posted:36 seconds is actually quite a long time. Count it out right now. In 36 seconds I can get out of bed, walk into my bathroom, undress, turn on the shower and start shampooing. This is bullshit. How the gently caress is your water hot enough in the twenty seconds to start shampooing.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:01
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Smoothrich posted:http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/04/us/baltimore-drugs-violence/index.html Holy poo poo that you have the temerity to blame the illegal drug trade on the "left". Btw the way to end riots is to stop letting cops getting away with murder you loving imbecile.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:15
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This is a really depressing thread. Why in the heck are people arguing that property rights are more important that Human rights? Are people arguing that removing police guns leads to the collapse of society? Why are so many people so smug about the fact that "Jury found them innocent, ergo nothing happened?" because there are many cases where Juries make wrongful choices based on other factors. I just find a great deal of this very weird, like why do you think that the shot man was behaving "improperly" with a gun pointed at him. I mean since when is that an excuse to end another human being?
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Jun 5, 2015 13:36
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Woozy posted:Holy poo poo that you have the temerity to blame the illegal drug trade on the "left". No, I'm saying many people of a "leftist" persuasion are too narrowly focused on the police, when there are very real underlying problems that go further then that. Reforming city police to be more fair and accountable is sound policy, but if you think it would fix homicide rates, drug addiction, rampant unemployment, failing education, globalization of industry, gang presence, etc that boil together into wanton destruction and looting that often sounds the death knell of a major city, you are wearing ideological blinders. I mean, you still aren't acknowledging that homicide rates have soared in Baltimore, especially in the district where Freddie Gray was killed and police are probably most hesitant to operate. How do you end the gang-fueled violence? Baltimore seems to be a case study in how to actually increase it. Josef bugman posted:Are people arguing that removing police guns leads to the collapse of society? What would stop the foot soldiers of criminal enterprises from just shooting cops? You'd turn American cities into Mexican cartel terrorzones with gang members taking rich people's children hostage and assassinating uncooperative mayors in broad daylight if you didn't have functioning, well-armed and trained law enforcement. Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 13:43
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Josef bugman posted:This is a really depressing thread. Why in the heck are people arguing that property rights are more important that Human rights? They've never heard of insurance
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Jun 5, 2015 13:45
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Hey ActusRhesus, how about however long it takes to verify that there is actually a firearm in a particular situation? These cops are such pants-pissing cowards that they can't even verify the veracity of a threat before sending bullets downrange.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:45
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Smoothrich posted:http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/04/us/baltimore-drugs-violence/index.html Wow, only 8:30 and I've already got a contender for the "stupidest loving thing I'll read all day" contest... Tell me more about how the cops are afraid to be charged with murder based on one completely egregious incident that no cop who isn't a murderous fuckhead would even consider. Yes, look at all the cops being charged with murder, all across the country, just for doing their jobs as Defenders Of Freedom (tm). Look at them! All of them! If the streets are flooded with pills from the rioting and it's open season on gangbangers, then maybe that's another reason that the police shouldn't go around loving killing people in cold blood, inciting mob violence. What was it Daley said about the police being there to preserve disorder? While it was not what he meant to say, it's true to a certain extent, they are part of the balance of power. They are never going to eradicate the gangs, anyone who thinks that is living in fantasyland. The police hosed up hard and their opposition is taking advantage of the opportunity.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:51
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Smoothrich posted:No, I'm saying many people of a "leftist" persuasion are too narrowly focused on the police, when there are very real underlying problems that go further then that. Reforming city police to be more fair and accountable is sound policy, but if you think it would fix homicide rates, drug addiction, rampant unemployment, failing education, globalization of industry, gang presence, etc that boil together into wanton destruction and looting that often sounds the death knell of a major city, you are wearing ideological blinders. lmao yea whoops sorry about that we on the left are definitely too obsessed with the criminal justice system. Maybe if we spent some time working on issues like poverty, education, racism, healthcare, and anti-globalization we could do some good but alas each of us is only allowed one issue to care about and the line at the criminal justice booth at the leftist convention was the shortest so what can you do.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:52
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Smoothrich posted:No, I'm saying many people of a "leftist" persuasion are too narrowly focused on the police, when there are very real underlying problems that go further then that. Reforming city police to be more fair and accountable is sound policy, but if you think it would fix homicide rates, drug addiction, rampant unemployment, failing education, globalization of industry, gang presence, etc that boil together into wanton destruction and looting that often sounds the death knell of a major city, you are wearing ideological blinders. Oh Jesus Christ not this poo poo again. Yeah, totally, not one leftist in the police thread believes that we should also be reforming society in other ways, got it. This happens to be the police thread, there are threads with more content if you click the little back button on your browser and look through the rest of D and D. Careful though, lots of words! And frankly I doubt B-more's murder rate has much to do with cops being afraid to enforce laws, since it's not likely that they were doing much to prevent poor black people from killing each other in the first place. If I had to take a stab at why the murder rate is rising in Baltimore, it would probably be that the economy has actually been getting much worse for large groups of people that aren't bankers and despite whatever bullshit narrative the media is pushing about the economy, we are heading into the worst financial crisis the world has seen since the Great Depression.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:55
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Sure would be nice if we could form a unified front to deal with all this separate issues at once without attracting every cop in the city to our doorstep, though
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Jun 5, 2015 13:57
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DrNutt posted:Oh Jesus Christ not this poo poo again. Yeah, totally, not one leftist in the police thread believes that we should also be reforming society in other ways, got it. This happens to be the police thread, there are threads with more content if you click the little back button on your browser and look through the rest of D and D. Careful though, lots of words! You think that the homicide rate tripling in Baltimore since the Freddie Gray riots have nothing to do with the Freddie Gray riots or newly emboldened gangs free from the cop's yoke, but are based on global economic trends? lmao
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Jun 5, 2015 14:04
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Yes, the problems in Baltimore are absolutely a function of economy and not because hero cops can no longer do their job.
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Jun 5, 2015 14:21
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blarzgh posted:A mistake was made, and it cost someone their life. And you two making it some political bullshit is the most tragic, and disgusting loving thing in this thread. No. Seriously gently caress you. "A mistake was made" - passive blame and responsibility avoiding bullshit. The officer choose to draw a lethal weapon on a civilian who had no apparent arms, was not committing any felony, and was not a direct danger. He chose to draw a lethal weapon, not a tazer , not a loud speaker, nothing but his gun. What's that thing in the newbie post in the firing range board? "Never point your weapon at anything you aren't going to shoot." The officer set the tone for this confrontation, he decided an unarmed man was a threat and dropped him. His choice. This was not a case of "mistakes were made", this is a case of a serious lapse of judgment by an armed officer of the law, and it needs to loving be treated as such. Edit: The disgusting part is the unarmed civilian died, and you see nothing wrong with that, and have the loving temerity to be angry with other posters who are pointing out that this absolutely could have been handled so many different ways that are on the officer that this entire shitstorm could have been avoided. But sure, let's keep with the "feeling threatened" defense for murder. Raerlynn fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 14:21
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DrNutt posted:Hey ActusRhesus, how about however long it takes to verify that there is actually a firearm in a particular situation? These cops are such pants-pissing cowards that they can't even verify the veracity of a threat before sending bullets downrange. Would love to see how you would respond if you believed you were about to be shot. DrNutt posted:Yes, the problems in Baltimore are absolutely a function of economy Unironically agree
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Jun 5, 2015 14:30
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I was so afraid...quote:An undercover cop on trial in the biker gang assault of a Manhattan dad squirmed on the stand as prosecutors challenged his claim that he did nothing to help the victim because he feared for his own safety. http://nypost.com/2015/06/04/undercover-cop-in-biker-gang-beating-rattled-on-the-stand/
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Jun 5, 2015 14:32
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When a self defense proponent or a police starts an engagement, escalates it to lethal force, and then kills an person that ends up being unarmed, well that's a terrible mistake and we wouldn't want to put more innocent people in jail or ruin their lives. However when someone is being nonviolent and walking down the street, or asleep where they shouldn't be and don't immediately stop being "aggressive" which is a term that can be used for literally any movement they are terminally stupid and its their fault they were killed since they obviously should have not made the person that started the confrontation and had total control over it jumpy.ActusRhesus posted:Would love to see how you would respond if you believed you were about to be shot. We should ask Taylor what he thought when he was about to be shot. Oh wait... Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 14:33
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The law allows police to initiate confrontations all the time. They're called arrests.
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Jun 5, 2015 14:35
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What was Taylor being arrested for again?
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Jun 5, 2015 14:37
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ActusRhesus posted:The law allows police to initiate confrontations all the time. They're called arrests. I believe the trend of dead bodies that seem to result from those confrontations under suspicious circumstances is the subject of this thread, yes. And generally for an arrest to take place doesn't there have to be a charge, and the arrested advised of his rights vis-a-vis the Miranda reading?
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Jun 5, 2015 14:38
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ActusRhesus posted:The law allows police to initiate confrontations all the time. They're called arrests. And this is why the law needs to be changed, because the police can't be trusted. Everyone needs the legal ability to initiate confrontations.
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Jun 5, 2015 14:38
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Smoothrich posted:42 homicides in Baltimore in May alone, nearly half of the 100+ homicides there all year, since the city arrested six police officers for murder and the police force have lost confidence in their commissioner and leadership. Apparently the worst murder rate since the 70s actually. That's horrible. Baltimore sees 20+ murders a month, so while this is horrible it isn't coming out of nowhere. Plus there's a nationwide trend of murders increasing. quote:All the rioters kept saying they wanted the police out of their neighborhoods, and it sounds like that's what the cops did, and now its probably descended into all out gang warfare almost immediately. Not exactly surprising. The protestors kept saying that they wanted police to not have the BPD jump out boys kick the poo poo out of every suspect, jail people based on specious charges that the city couldn't prosecute against and last but not least stop having people get paralyzed while in police custody. The community (outside of the Baltimore white "L") has absolutely no faith in the police because of poo poo like Freddie Gray having his spine almost completely severed while in police custody. This is 20 years of bullshit stemming from when Schmoke left office and O'Malley started giving the city the broken windows treatment which culminated in the hilarious year with 100,000 arrests in a city of 650,000. Boiling it down to "want the police out of their neighborhoods" is a stupid rear end media narrative, which oversimplifies it to the point that it is no longer even remotely correct. Either way I am just so proud that there is the notion that people are spreading that the proper response to exercising free speech means complete abdication of responsibilities by the government. America, what a country!
hallebarrysoetoro fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 14:40
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Radish posted:What was Taylor being arrested for again? That is a point actually. Why wasn't he arrested?
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Jun 5, 2015 14:40
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I'd love someone's overactive imagination to not be enough for a successful self defense claim. If a person can't tell the difference between a real or imagined threat and chooses to kill for imaginary reasons he's a danger to society and should be in jail.
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Jun 5, 2015 14:42
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ActusRhesus posted:Would love to see how you would respond if you believed you were about to be shot. Shot with what? Mind bullets? There was no gun and yes, I expect someone in law enforcement to be able to verify that sort of thing before making the decision to take a life. How the gently caress is this even arguable?
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Jun 5, 2015 14:42
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Josef bugman posted:That is a point actually. Why wasn't he arrested? He didn't do anything. His group met the physical description of some people that supposedly had a gun. There was no way for him to know that somewhere a group of men had a gun and a cop would think he had one.
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