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DARPA posted:If a person can't tell the difference between a real or imagined and chooses to kill for imaginary reasons he's a danger to society and should be in jail. I believe that's referred to as "paranoid schizophrenia".
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Jun 5, 2015 14:45
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Radish posted:He didn't do anything. His group met the physical description of some people that supposedly had a gun. There was no way for him to know that somewhere a group of men had a gun and a cop would think he had one. No what I was more meaning was, why was he shot, not arrested.
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Jun 5, 2015 14:49
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Josef bugman posted:No what I was more meaning was, why was he shot, not arrested. Because he was "threatening" which is a nebulous term that can be used for literally any action and the cop was scared and trigger happy during a situation he carelessly created.
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Jun 5, 2015 14:52
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I just watched the 36 second video. The cop rolls up and the guy walks away. While perfectly legal, usually looks suspicious. Cop, who has been told one of these people may have a gun, draws his gun. Guy finally hears cop and turns, and makes a move toward his waist. Should the cop have fired I guess is the question? I'd say cops need better training in avoiding confrontation - would have been fine to delay and call backup. But once he made the decision to pursue, I think it was a reasonable reaction to fire. But cops aren't super human automatons that can remove adrenaline, fear, and biases from their official capacity as a cop. Delaying the confrontation or using less lethal means would probably have resulted in no deaths. Let's fund police departments better to get a higher quality of applicant who are better trained.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:04
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Every cop should make at least $250,000 to draw the most qualified applicants.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:05
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That as well. I do not have much experience with firearms but even if the gentleman had been armed wouldn't it have been a hell of a shot to kill the police officer?
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Jun 5, 2015 15:05
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A lot of people here seem to have pretty unreasonable expectations of how a person, even a trained person, ought to behave when the believe they are about to be shot. Big take home point in all of this is when faced with armed law enforcement, do not ignore their instructions and make a quick action that could reasonably be misinterpreted as going for a weapon. There are plenty of legit cases of police and prosecutor misconduct to focus on and criticize. (Eg Orange County. Eg severed spinal cords and mystery stops en route to booking) a cop shooting someone because he matched the description of an armed suspect and, when approached, immediately reached into his pants, where weapons are often stored, is not one of them.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:09
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Josef bugman posted:That as well. I do not have much experience with firearms but even if the gentleman had been armed wouldn't it have been a hell of a shot to kill the police officer? At that range? No.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:10
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ActusRhesus posted:A lot of people here seem to have pretty unreasonable expectations of how a person, even a trained person, ought to behave when the believe they are about to be shot. I agree. You have an unreasonable expectation of how the victim, who is not a trained person, ought to behave when he believes he is about to be shot by police.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:13
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ActusRhesus posted:A lot of people here seem to have pretty unreasonable expectations of how a person, even a trained person, ought to behave when the believe they are about to be shot. FRINGE posted:New York Neeeeew Yooooork!
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Jun 5, 2015 15:17
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Devor posted:I agree. You have an unreasonable expectation of how the victim, who is not a trained person, ought to behave when he believes he is about to be shot by police. If I saw a cop with a gun drawn at me, I'd be scared enough to get shot probably.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:17
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Devor posted:I agree. You have an unreasonable expectation of how the victim, who is not a trained person, ought to behave when he believes he Fixed that for you. ActusRhesus posted:A lot of people here seem to have pretty unreasonable expectations of how a person, even a trained person, ought to behave when the believe they are about to be shot. I disagree. I believe it is reasonable to assume that the men and women whose function in society is to keep the peace will not open fire on an unarmed man with out first confirming that a weapon exists, and that said officers will use good judgment and use the lowest level of force necessary. Raerlynn fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 15:18
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Josef bugman posted:I just find a great deal of this very weird, like why do you think that the shot man was behaving "improperly" with a gun pointed at him. I mean since when is that an excuse to end another human being? Radish posted:He didn't do anything. His group met the physical description of some people that supposedly had a gun. There was no way for him to know that somewhere a group of men had a gun and a cop would think he had one.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:41
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Waco Panty Raid posted:A bunch of cops showing up with at least one yelling at him to show his hands with a gun drawn would have tipped off most people something was amiss. Depending on where he lived I would argue that having cops yell at and draw weapons on you for literally no reason may just be another day that ends in "y".
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Jun 5, 2015 15:52
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I just watched the 36 second video. The cop rolls up and the guy walks away. While perfectly legal, usually looks suspicious. Cop, who has been told one of these people may have a gun, draws his gun. They literally just need to be held accountable. It's not a question of money or training--both of those things have been made readily available to our heroes in blue, very often at the expense of every other service, most of which in are far more desperate need and would have far more dramatic impacts on crime. That is of course assuming the pack of loving fraudulent survivalist nerds in this thread who have never been anywhere near a crime aren't just pretending to give a poo poo about the real impact it has on communities for which they ordinarily have nothing but contempt.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:54
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That dude was dead before he even turned around. His hands were in his pockets and he's getting yelled at to put his hands up. At this point what are his options? He chooses to follow the cops' orders and raises his hands. Before they even get chest high he's shot. If he had ignored the orders he'd have been shot too. The cop had decided he wanted to kill someone as soon as he pulled his pistol.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:54
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Raerlynn posted:Depending on where he lived I would argue that having cops yell at and draw weapons on you for literally no reason may just be another day that ends in "y".
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Jun 5, 2015 15:59
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SpeedGem posted:Also, if you're wearing headphones and pull up youre sagging shorts, you gonna die. I suppose this sort of thing is inevitable when you can clear a police academy faster than barber school. Also, I literally stopped right after the kill and googled to see if this was a satirical video. If I had cops like that in my area, I'd literally view them as a murderous street gang with whom any contact could be fatal and as reason to move. What a disgrace.
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Jun 5, 2015 15:59
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Then he should have had plenty of practice and known what to do.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 5, 2015 16:00
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ozmunkeh posted:That dude was dead before he even turned around. His hands were in his pockets and he's getting yelled at to put his hands up. At this point what are his options? He chooses to follow the cops' orders and raises his hands. Before they even get chest high he's shot. If he had ignored the orders he'd have been shot too. The cop had decided he wanted to kill someone as soon as he pulled his pistol. Exactly. Saying that video is an example of what not to do around cops is accurate in that doing anything around a jumpy police officer will get you killed. If he had simply removed his hands from his pockets he would have been shot and the same people would be saying that he brought it upon himself since the police are both humans with weaknesses and deserve leniency when they make fatal mistakes and also robots that simply have no ability to make nuanced decisions and civilians should treat them as murderbots to be feared.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:03
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Its odd watching people defend a cop for shooting someone who was doing what the cop asked imo
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Jun 5, 2015 16:03
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Then he should have had plenty of practice and known what to do. Trolling, or you are literally a sociopathic monster. Either way, gently caress off.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:05
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Jose posted:Its odd watching people defend a cop for shooting someone who was doing what the cop asked imo He kinda lifted his shirt, he knew what he was getting into being the aggressive party when the cop merely had a gun pointed at him.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:05
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"Put your hands up!" "The suspect raised his hands in a threatening manner."
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Jun 5, 2015 16:05
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Waco Panty Raid posted:It's not just that Taylor acted "improperly" or "imperfectly," it strikes me as probably one of the worst ways someone unarmed could act around police with guns drawn short of physically assaulting them. The video should be a don't-do-this teaching aid in the hypothetical "how to interact with police" class some people were talking about. So why are people defending the officer and attacking the man who was killed? He made a mistake but, according to the arguments made by yourself and others in this thread, that should not be grounds for punishment, let alone death.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:08
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Because cognitive dissonance is ~icky~ and its hard to imagine yourself in a situation where you're going to die and there's no way out
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Jun 5, 2015 16:10
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Josef bugman posted:So why are people defending the officer and attacking the man who was killed? He made a mistake but, according to the arguments made by yourself and others in this thread, that should not be grounds for punishment, let alone death. No see the justice system didn't punish them the shooter just killed them out of fear so technically they were't given the death sentence for some minor crime or none at all. They were just the unfortunate result of a bad situation (created by the shooter) so there's no harm or foul. Sorry about the guy being dead but it was inevitable (once the person decided to start a confrontation with a gun drawn).
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Jun 5, 2015 16:15
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Josef bugman posted:So why are people defending the officer and attacking the man who was killed? He made a mistake but, according to the arguments made by yourself and others in this thread, that should not be grounds for punishment, let alone death. Combination of tribalism (cops are against criminals, I am against criminals, cops must be on my side) and reliance on a just world (if someone bad happens to someone, it is because of their willful actions/inactions and they deserved the repercussions of those actions/inactions)
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Jun 5, 2015 16:18
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Josef bugman posted:So why are people defending the officer and attacking the man who was killed? He made a mistake but, according to the arguments made by yourself and others in this thread, that should not be grounds for punishment, let alone death.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:28
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hallebarrysoetoro posted:Combination of tribalism (cops are against criminals, I am against criminals, cops must be on my side) and reliance on a just world (if someone bad happens to someone, it is because of their willful actions/inactions and they deserved the repercussions of those actions/inactions) Don't forget people vicariously treating shootings like a vengeful or "self-defense" murder fantasy. I've heard a lot of real weird poo poo from gun people over the years about that kind of thing. "Jokes," about how to reposition bodies (re: doorways or staircases) to fit a narrative which meets the legal standard, or Fun Facts about how to contrive the meeting of the legal standard, etc. Weirdo poo poo.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:28
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Because not all mistakes are the same, obviously. I don't think anyone is arguing that any mistake=punishment/death sentence, that's an absurd reduction. You look at the whole situation, some mistakes are reasonable and others are not. Would a reasonable person think Taylor acted even close to appropriately given the situation he faced? We can then debate how appropriate the officer's reaction was given the situation as was presented. Well alongside that, why would it have been bad if he had been armed? I thought you were allowed to be in America? If you had the license for it you can even keep it hidden. Would it have been different then?
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Jun 5, 2015 16:31
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Waco Panty Raid posted:Because not all mistakes are the same, obviously. I don't think anyone is arguing that any mistake=punishment/death sentence, that's an absurd reduction. You look at the whole situation, some mistakes are reasonable and others are not. Would a reasonable person think Taylor acted even close to appropriately given the situation he faced? We can then debate how appropriate the officer's reaction was given the situation as was presented. He's facing away from the cop with headphones in, puts his hands inside his jeans or whatever then turns around and is told to put his hands up and gets shot for doing what the cop asked
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Jun 5, 2015 16:38
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Radish posted:He kinda lifted his shirt, he knew what he was getting into being the aggressive party when the cop merely had a gun pointed at him. His hands where in his pants, probably holding them up, it looks like he was startled and his first reaction was to pull his pants higher... It doesn't look like he was trying to show his hands, lift his shirt or anything, it literally just looks like he was surprised and didn't know what to do with his hands.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:43
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Josef bugman posted:Well alongside that, why would it have been bad if he had been armed? I thought you were allowed to be in America? If you had the license for it you can even keep it hidden. Would it have been different then? Silly, only certain people in America are allowed to be armed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvW_zBvJlsA
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Jun 5, 2015 16:43
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When faced with law enforcement the prudent course of action for a firearms permit holder is to comply with law enforcement, place your hands where they tell you to, and calmly state "I have a concealed carry permit. There is a handgun located [wherever] how would you like me to proceed?" Not reach for your gun.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:47
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Also, if that's the legal standard for killing then I really missed out as a security guard. Instead of being posted up atop a construction site full of copper like a scarecrow designed to keep meth heads away, I should've been wasting motherfuckers left and right (maybe even in one nonstop marathon session of fist pumping and hooting). There really were multiple occasions where I thought I might get shot but instead used my feeble nerd social skills to resolve those situations without killing anyone. How the gently caress am I supposed to take any rulings on police shootings seriously when the standard's lower than I loving use? And I'm a fat bitch nerd.
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Jun 5, 2015 16:48
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ActusRhesus posted:When faced with law enforcement the prudent course of action for a firearms permit holder is to comply with law enforcement, place your hands where they tell you to, and calmly state "I have a concealed carry permit. There is a handgun located [wherever] how would you like me to proceed?" Not reach for your gun. So how does this apply, why would ordinary people know this? Why does it make it okay for accidents that kill people to happen and then get told that "he acted improperly" about the victim. Does that not seen a little callous? Like, just a bit?
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Jun 5, 2015 16:51
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A local news article about the killing of Dillon Taylor, which is definitely a better description of the whole picture than you'll get from DailyKos or some rah-rah killemall right-wing blog. The tone is still one that takes it for granted that the DA can't really be wrong, but that's a lot of local news for you: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=31772096
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Jun 5, 2015 16:55
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Look who didn't get shot to death:quote:MACON COUNTY, N.C. -- Two people are in custody after shots were fired outside of a mountain elementary school on Thursday morning. 
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Jun 5, 2015 16:55
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Josef bugman posted:Well alongside that, why would it have been bad if he had been armed? I thought you were allowed to be in America? If you had the license for it you can even keep it hidden. Would it have been different then?
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Jun 5, 2015 16:55
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