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Kyrosiris posted:That is correct. Not that I'd advocate trying to drain W2 Exdeath of his MP unless you have Bard (and thus everyone can use !Hide), but yeah, it's an interesting thing to be aware of. ^ I meant to mention this. Very true. Especially using Lancet.
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Jun 6, 2015 01:23
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| # ? May 24, 2024 18:50 |
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For the record, Lancet also causes Omniscient to reset the battle. I know this because I got stuck with a mostly-melee team for one run (it might've actually been a No750 run) and didn't have any magical options. I had to savestate up silencings with Mage Masher to win. It was either that or wait for him to run out of MP the long way, and screw that.
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Jun 6, 2015 01:41
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So I just reread the rules, and apparently you can't get a Berserker assigned for your Wind Job, which means the max BERSERKER RISK you can take is 3. That said, it seems like it would be really sucky/boring to be stuck with a non-physical Wind job in terms of ability variety. Would Knight be best case scenario? I'm assuming so mostly for Two-Handed and the Equip passives. Monk might be good for the HP passives, plus they'd be able to use Equip Axe to help out with their drop-off in strength. The only thing Thief would be good for would be Artful Dodger, it appears. Everything else seems like it wouldn't do anything for Berserker, unless there's something they can do with MP somehow. At the same time it seems like having at least one Berserker would help cover a lot of classes' asses with Equip Axe. 
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Jun 6, 2015 03:13
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Jueg01 posted:That said, it seems like it would be really sucky/boring to be stuck with a non-physical Wind job in terms of ability variety. !Black, !White, and !Blue hand over their magic scores so you can improve the Rune Axe and Gaia Hammer. If nothing else, the mages are significantly more powerful classes than the physical ones.
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Jun 6, 2015 03:15
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So really, Red Mage is the only real loser in the bunch?
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Jun 6, 2015 03:23
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Jueg01 posted:So really, Red Mage is the only real loser in the bunch?
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Jun 6, 2015 03:55
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Jueg01 posted:So really, Red Mage is the only real loser in the bunch? Even with Red Mage you get heals and other spells outside of fights that your real Red Mage doesn't have to spend MP on (though of course a white mage would obviously still be a better option). Not horrible, just not as good.
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Jun 6, 2015 03:56
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Ha! RNG was kinder to me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMJxVJxNTQY
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Jun 6, 2015 04:06
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Jueg01 posted:So I just reread the rules, and apparently you can't get a Berserker assigned for your Wind Job, which means the max BERSERKER RISK you can take is 3. What, for teaming with three Berserkers? Thief is worst, then comes Monk. I mean, that's mostly just preference, but I'd certainly rather have HP+30% or Barehanded on my Berserkers over Artful Dodger, since one of those is replicated by the best accessory in the game. Either's bottom tier as hell, though. After that, I'd say Black Mage. It just helps with the Earth Hammer and Rune Axe, although the Black Mage itself is powerful enough to solo the game, so there's a huge gap here. Then comes Knight. Equip Swords fixes a lot of the Berserker's problems, and Double Grip does well. The real prize is the Defender, making your Knight a sort of ghetto White Mage able to throw Protects, Elixirs, and Phoenix Downs while the Berserkers do all the real work. After that is Blue Mage. It helps the Rune Axe and Earth Hammer same as the Black Mage, but is just as capable a spellcaster who can use Mighty Guard and White Wind. Finally, we have the White Mage. A White Mage will singlehandedly keep the entire team alive and healthy, and by the time you get to bosses the Berserkers might not be so hot against (Necrophobia, Neo Exdeath) she can sling Holy spells and laugh all the way to the ending cutscene. Most classes can actually make the Berserker better, but that's not really secret Team Building In FFV Skillz, that's just how the game is designed: most classes can offer something to improve another class. It's telling that the classes commonly considered weakest are the ones who offer the least to other classes (Thief, Monk, Berserker, Geomancer, Dancer, Dragoon).
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Jun 6, 2015 04:10
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Dancer is more people underestimating Ribbons. 
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Jun 6, 2015 04:17
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Kyrosiris posted:Dancer is more people underestimating Ribbons. Dancer's only advantage is Ribbons. Chicken Knife Sword Dance is nice when it works, but that's only 50% of the time in the best case scenario on a vanilla version of the game. Jitterbug and Mystery Waltz are unimpressive at best and actively harmful at worst (undead enemies), and in exchange for Ribbons, Dancer gets the durability of a wet tissue.Don't get me wrong, Ribbons are great, but Dancer still has to compete with Chemist's broken poo poo and Samurai's overall solidness. It gives synergy as opposed to receiving it.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:27
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Trasson posted:Thief is worst, then comes Monk. I mean, that's mostly just preference, but I'd certainly rather have HP+30% or Barehanded on my Berserkers over Artful Dodger, since one of those is replicated by the best accessory in the game. Either's bottom tier as hell, though.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:37
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Chaotic Neutral posted:Huh? Haste is applied after the 'speed factor' is calculated, the relative contribution of Agility doesn't change with it. Berserker with Haste and Berserker with Thief Agility plus Haste is near enough to be indistinguishable, and is only worth an ability slot when there's literally no other option. EDIT: Like, okay, let's talk actual game here. You're not going to master Thief in World 1, no question. In World 3 post airship, you've got Running Shoes. So, for the stretch of Gilgamesh -> Melusine, that's the only time it'd make a difference. Honestly, mastering Thief then is still pretty early, but it's not out of the question if you got money for four Flame Rings and/or Angel Rings. Gilgamesh is pretty weak, Tyrannosaur meets Phoenix Down, Dragon Pod meets instant death, Enkidu meets instant death and White Wind is the real enemy there, not Gilgamesh. Atomos is likely to die before you care about how fast turns are going. Honestly, going in with three Berserkers and the Thief dead will probably work just fine if you get good axe damage rolls. Seal Guardians meet instant death, Castle Gilgamesh's biggest problem is him dying before you can steal from him. Castle Exdeath meets Reflect Rings because three Berserkers can do 16000 damage to him pretty quick. Antlion is a joke, and Melusine's gimmick is outright laughed at by Berserkers no matter the speed. Finally, you get the airship and auto-Haste and it doesn't matter. Artful Dodger on a Berserker's pretty lame. Rosalie_A fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 04:39
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Trasson posted:Berserker with Haste and Berserker with Thief Agility plus Haste is near enough to be indistinguishable, and is only worth an ability slot when there's literally no other option. I can confirm, at least, that Artful Dodger does very, very little to help Berserker's horrendous speed; Haste works as expected, but even a Hasted Berserker with Artful Dodger will only attack three times to any other class's unhasted two.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:43
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I'll take 20% more turns over 30% more hp or 10% more str any day. Especially since 20% more turns gets me someone who can be more than just an elixir bot in the endgame.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:43
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dis astranagant posted:I'll take 20% more turns over 30% more hp or 10% more str any day. Especially since 20% more turns gets me someone who can be more than just an elixir bot in the endgame. Words cannot express my amusement that you think a Thief would be anything but an item bot during any actual hard fight with three Berserkers.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:52
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Trasson posted:Words cannot express my amusement that you think a Thief would be anything but an item bot during any actual hard fight with three Berserkers. It's more that, if a free turn where items/other support isn't necessary, a Thief can do something actually resembling damage, whereas a Monk is uh... a Monk.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:53
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Chicken mugging for ~2500 damage and !flee during the many, many random battles that aren't worth fighting but have stupid low normal run chances.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:55
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Trasson posted:Berserker with Haste and Berserker with Thief Agility plus Haste is near enough to be indistinguishable, and is only worth an ability slot when there's literally no other option. KataraniSword posted:I can confirm, at least, that Artful Dodger does very, very little to help Berserker's horrendous speed; Haste works as expected, but even a Hasted Berserker with Artful Dodger will only attack three times to any other class's unhasted two. Chaotic Neutral fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 05:01
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Immunity to back attacks is pretty great when 3/4 of your team can't change rows, especially in places like the meat castle and most of the void have super low run chances.
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Jun 6, 2015 05:02
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Kyrosiris posted:It's more that, if a free turn where items/other support isn't necessary, a Thief can do something actually resembling damage, whereas a Monk is uh... a Monk. Berserker fights are divided into two neat groups. Ones where they murder due to being Berserkers, and ones where they keep dying due to being Berserkers. The first needs no assistance. The second is actually helped far more by +30% HP on the second highest Vitality in the game than a couple of thousand damage that you'll never find a turn to use. Plus, a Monk could whip out Thor's Hammer for decent back-row okay damage, where Chicken Knife has to be in the front row for full damage where you have to eat killer Vaccuum Waves. Not that I'd recommend that except for randoms: I'm serious about any hard fight (by which I mean Necrophobia and [Neo-]Exdeath and maybe Shinryu if that's your thing) mandating your fourth character just throw items. dis astranagant posted:Chicken mugging for ~2500 damage and !flee during the many, many random battles that aren't worth fighting but have stupid low normal run chances. For the Chicken Knife, see above. As for !Flee, there's like two or three random fights that scare a Berserker, and the Dragons in Castle Exdeath only count because they have innate Reflect and you probably have Doom Sickles on. Then there's Iron Giants, which would be really scary if they weren't so rare. I mean, unless you're on console SFC/PS1/GBA, Berserkers can turbo mode through fights pretty well, thanks to frameskip/autobattle. Keep in mind they have instant death on a weapon and that stays relevant against randoms for a long time. I guess !Flee might be a little faster? If you'd really rather save ten minutes or so off your clear time, be my guest. For myself, if I were forced to replay Foobar with three Berserkers, Monk would help more than Thief. Still painful compared to most any other job, but more useful than Thief. Chaotic Neutral posted:~20-25% is pretty far from indistinguishable. Besides, 1) they're not actually competing for a slot and 2) you're not going to have HP+30% any sooner than Artful Dodger. Barehanded is a massive 8 Str - that's not even going to reliably give you +1 M until around the time those skills are coming online! If we're comparing Monk versus Thief, while HP+30% and Artful Dodger are pretty similar AP-wise (700 versus 635), that's discounting what comes on the way to HP+30%. Namely, HP+20%, at a much more reasonable 400 AP. That's certainly an acceptable substitute until the very endgame. Also, sooner doesn't matter for a Berserker. Let me tell you the hard Berserker fights. Sandworm, Sol Cannon, Necrophobia, [Neo-]Exdeath, Shinryu. Everything else is optional or wrecked by instant death, or just dies to repeated axe->face application. The first two are easily handled by your other two characters. Necrophobia and Neo Exdeath are the last two story fights. Shinryu doesn't even freaking count. As for the whole speed thing, I'm going to check it out and compare for myself. Something I'm actually wondering: did the mobile version change speed to work like how it does in FFVI on? If so, then Artful Dodger will definitely have a greater impact there, since the bar will fill a lot faster, compared to the other versions where it just starts a little farther up. Something to consider, I think. Rosalie_A fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 05:10
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Fartz the chicken thief gets 4 turns to every 3 that Fartz the monk does. 35 ticks vs 46, assuming black garb, black cowl and hermes sandals on both. There will be spare turns here and there.
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Jun 6, 2015 05:33
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 Got my save file all ready. My dislike of silly names got beaten out by my desire to play FOR CHARITY! Now I just have to wait just over 2 weeks without exploding from impatience.
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Jun 6, 2015 05:42
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Right, so I just tested myself. I used Bartz as a Berserker and as a Berserker with Artful Dodger for both cases. He had an Aegis Shield but no other equipment. This is entirely just to make testing easier, as my save was sitting at the final save point, and so blocking attacks headed my way made it easier. Timing was more difficult, but I figured out an idea. Since time stops every time stuff happens, this needs to be accounted for. So, I equipped Lenna with the Cursed Ring. She was decked out in equipment, but that doesn't affect the Doom timer. Haste would but I made sure she didn't have that on. Any time a command was being executed, the timer would stop, so this was handy. Also, for all it's worth, I had Battle Speed on the fastest setting. The initial attack from Bartz came after five ticks of the Cursed Ring in all cases. Without Artful Dodger, the following attacks came every seven ticks without fail. With, it was every five. So, the takeaways. First, the initial attack, the most important (and aggravating) one in random battles, was just as fast either way. More importantly, it seems Artful Dodger does give a bigger bonus than I'd expected. It's not trivial either. However, then I tried with Running Shoes (Hermes Sandles, whatever you prefer). The inaccuracy of the Cursed Ring came in a little here. Without Artful Dodger, Bartz still made his initial strike after five ticks. His next one was after four ticks, and then the rest were every three with the odd four in there. With, it was a similar situation, but in the other direction, with three tick attacks and the occasional two. The initial attack was unchanged, but Artful Dodger caused the following ones to come ever so slightly faster. The game keeps track of time on a finer scale than the un-hasted un-slowed Doom Counter (probably in 1/128 or 1/256 increments) but I don't have a good way of watching it, so this will have to do. When Haste comes into play, Artful Dodger clearly makes a smaller difference than when Haste isn't there. So, I guess if it's your thing, go nuts? I don't find it a large enough difference to care, myself, and it's of no real help in randoms, where the Berserker's slowness is most aggravating. I mean, if you have to quantify it, unhasted is 40% faster. That's a thing, I'll admit, but as I said above, unhasted only comes into play against fights you have no business losing, so whatever. As for Hasted, again quantifying it. One of every three non-AD attacks was a "slow" 4 tick one. So, 3 and a third ticks per attack. Hasted AD was one of every three a "fast" two tick attack. So, two and two thirds ticks per attack. This comes to about a 25% increase in attacks when hasted. So it comes down to this. If you're having to take along one class with three Berserkers, a Thief is worth a 25% increase in their number of attacks after the first turn. Is that worth more or less than HP+30%? Hell, is it worth more than Equip Swords/Double Grip, or Black Magic, or any number of potential teammates? I have to admit, quantified I can't say as definitively as I did before. Myself, I'd still prefer anything else, but based solely on how it helps a Berserker I have to admit the Thief at least makes a good case. Now, is the Thief a good fourth party member in general for a three Berserker party? Even with this, I don't think it beats out a Knight (the Defender is that good), and I'd still prefer a Monk; but again, I will admit there's a legitimate playstyle preference that can come into play since the numbers actually do mean something. Chalk one up to math, I guess. Rosalie_A fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 06:11
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You can make up for lack of damage or lack of health with higher levels. Levels do nothing for speed though.
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Jun 6, 2015 06:47
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Fister Roboto posted:You can make up for lack of damage or lack of health with higher levels. Levels do nothing for speed though. I was gonna say, the poo poo I'd do for a 25% boost in action economy in other games is borderline criminal.
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Jun 6, 2015 06:49
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Kyrosiris posted:I was gonna say, the poo poo I'd do for a 25% boost in action economy in other games is borderline criminal. Yeah, but I'm talking specifically Berserkers here, so it's not action economy, just damage. That's not nothing, but this isn't 25% faster spellslinging or item tossing: it's just 25% faster hits of the Rune Axe or what have you. And since it's axes, if I really need 25% more damage, I could equip Artful Dodger...or I could just fight the same battle again and hope my attack rolls higher than the last time. But again, I'd call that one a playstyle preference Fister Roboto posted:You can make up for lack of damage or lack of health with higher levels. Levels do nothing for speed though. Speed isn't just more attacks, it's more flexibility to respond with items/recasting spells/what have you. That's meaningless if you can't input actions. Again, don't look at it as more speed, look at it as more damage. So, you can add 25% more damage with an ability slot. Or, if we look at the nearest companion on the bottom tier section, we've got HP+30%. That'll add about five levels more of HP (well, at least at the numbers I ran, in the 35-45 range). That's not really trivial, since those EXP needed values skyrocket come the late 30s (Level 35 requires 150000 and change experience. Level 40 needs another ~100000 on top of that, and it only goes up from there). Myself, when Neo Exdeath starts slinging Meteors, I know I'd rather have more HP. Speaking of, that's the other thing. Hasted Berserkers attack immediately upon being revived (at least, in the SFC version, haven't tested GBA, but I imaging it's similar. Can't speak for mobile at all.), and they'll be dying like flies. That extra speed means nothing in that case, since they'll rarely be alive long enough to reap notable benefits. A bit of irony that. I guess it's still useful against Necrophobia, since it's less likely they'll die there.
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Jun 6, 2015 09:42
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So far on my Omniserker Solo (thanks to Kyro for the brilliant name), Artful Dodger kinda sucked. Then again, it's early game so Barehanded trivializes most fights. Still, I've been having some variety in what I have to use (Shiradori for Karlabos, Dual-Wield for Ifrit, Equip Whips to trivialize Byblos, !White to heal between regular encounters). Artful Dodger's not that major a speed boost, especially compared to stuff that boosts damage moreso. Likewise, HP +30% isn't that useful in a solo run either since the most threatening fights are either those that inflict status effects or those that do proportional HP damage like Breath Wing, and for those it's better to end it quicker by doing as much damage as possible since HP is irrelevant. Of course, I haven't tried Sandworm yet so my spirit isn't broken for now.
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Jun 6, 2015 11:19
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So if you care about that kind of thing, THE RUN participant HappySquid89 is scheduled to run FFV any% for Scrubathon III today at 4:30pm EST. Here's the rest of the schedule.
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Jun 6, 2015 13:00
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I'm glad to see it quantified, and now I know what my biggest complaint is. So we have tangible evidence that boosting Agility from game-worst to game-best helps, and considerably at that, but in any case that isn't multi-zerk, your first attack still takes an unreasonably long time to get off with a Berserker, for whatever reason... and FF5 random battles are not ones of attrition. Boss battles are longer and more involved, but they also largely have gimmicks you need to plan for that zerks just... bash through with their face anyway. Trasson posted:Speaking of, that's the other thing. Hasted Berserkers attack immediately upon being revived (at least, in the SFC version, haven't tested GBA, but I imaging it's similar. Can't speak for mobile at all.), and they'll be dying like flies. That extra speed means nothing in that case, since they'll rarely be alive long enough to reap notable benefits. A bit of irony that. I guess it's still useful against Necrophobia, since it's less likely they'll die there. This is a pretty good point, though. If they start the battle with their ATB zeroed out (which is dumb), then when they revive their ATB is instantly maxed out (which is helpful).
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Jun 6, 2015 14:06
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 L34  (Blitz Whip did just over 1k damage, so it was a matter of trying over and over until it worked. I'm guessing around fifty attempts?) At any rate, I'm still scared as hell about Soul Cannon and Purobolos.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:49
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Trasson posted:Yeah, but I'm talking specifically Berserkers here, so it's not action economy, just damage. I'm talking specifically about the Berserkers' babysitter, since the argument is Thief vs Monk. Someone who gets four turns to their competition's 3 is absolutely my jam.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:35
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I beat FFV and I'm fully ready for the Fiesta. 
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Jun 6, 2015 20:39
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Since I registered for the fiesta I haven't touched the game (I had never played it before either). I'm planning to go in 100% blind. On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad an idea is this?
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Jun 6, 2015 21:59
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Mikl posted:Since I registered for the fiesta I haven't touched the game (I had never played it before either). I'm planning to go in 100% blind. On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad an idea is this? like a 3?
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Jun 6, 2015 22:00
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Mikl posted:Since I registered for the fiesta I haven't touched the game (I had never played it before either). I'm planning to go in 100% blind. On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad an idea is this? I played FF5 first time for a Fiesta and it turned out great. Just do a basic run and you should do just fine, assuming you don't get Monk/Berserker/Geomancer/Dragoon or something. Even then, there's loads of documentation on how to cheese everything.
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Jun 6, 2015 22:02
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Mikl posted:Since I registered for the fiesta I haven't touched the game (I had never played it before either). I'm planning to go in 100% blind. On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad an idea is this? Every year people play the game for the first time during the Fiesta and finish it successfully.
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Jun 6, 2015 22:05
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The FJF is ideal for first-timers, really.
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Jun 6, 2015 23:19
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Are "worlds" separated by major plot events, or are they the periods defining each crystal's jobs?
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Jun 6, 2015 23:20
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| # ? May 24, 2024 18:50 |
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Plot events. You'll have all the main jobs by the end of the first World.
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Jun 6, 2015 23:21
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