Kalman posted:

Yes, I was talking about an interlocutory appeal (which is why I mentioned the kinds of things that interlocutory appeals are used for...). That kind of failure is absolutely tailor-made for an interlocutory appeal - limited issue, basically dead-simple decision because it is quite literally "is there footage? No? Did they give the instruction? No? Order the instruction given."

That said, I somewhat doubt you'd see a lot of failures to give the instruction in a non-discretionary environment, and the instruction would presumably also apply in any follow-on civil cases so it would have some value there as well.

Jarmak posted:

Okay yeah, but I don't think its fair to assume that people would assume you're talking about an interlocutory appeal, or even know what that is, when you post in this thread.

Kalman posted:

It is 100% fair to assume AR would, and also quite fair to assume anyone who would bring up the general limitation on criminal appeals by prosecution would, though. In other words, anyone who was going to take issue with it on that account should also have understood why it isn't actually an issue.

ElCondemn posted:

That's a good question! It's actually true that being poor means you're more likely to both be a victim and a perpetrator.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137

I do find it interesting that poor hispanics are less violent than poor whites and blacks by about double. And poverty apparently doesn't make us Hispanics any more violent.

Jarmak posted:

Anomie is a well documented theory of criminal deviance and involves the contradiction of societal expectations of success and the lack of acceptable avenues to achieve it leading to following an unsanctioned path in order to achieve what society has deemed as what is required to be respectable.

Or put more succinctly, if you condition people to believe economic success determines personal worth and then bar them from "legitimate" ways to achieve it they will take forbidden ways to achieve it.

Easy MC posted:

That study is about violent crime victimization, not perpetration. The study shows people living in less well-off neighborhoods and more likely to be victimized by crime. What the study cannot answer is whether the perpetrators of crime are doing so out of economically motivated reasons, or some other reason, or whether an increase in economic opportunity would reduce perpetration of crime.

Hot Dog Day #91 posted:

I like that the police have guns to protect themselves, because the world is poo poo and they deal with some awful people. I dint want them to be killed when they're writing traffic tickets.

I hate that the police have guns because the police scare me due to very public very bad acts and they sometimes are too quick to act in a life ending way. I don't want to be killed when getting a traffic ticket.

Neither of these should be controversial, but here in dnd....

oohhboy posted:

You have been found to be a person who is so trigger happy that identifying a target is an afterthought let alone assessing threat of any kind is someone who is not well. Get help.

quote:

Those FBI incidents resulted in change as to how such thing are handled by the FBI and became lessons learned. The agents weren't punished due to incompetent handling of the cases. While no where near a perfect result, they took lasting steps in the right direction. In a choice between the police and the FBI, I take the FBI every time as under even those tragic events and problems at the time, I would have been given a chance to surrender.

ElCondemn posted:

I don't believe the world is poo poo. I also don't believe most people are awful, even criminals. At least not awful in the murdery sense. I also don't want anyone to die, but having a gun doesn't seem conducive to that goal.

Hot Dog Day #91 posted:

Do people think cops are actively deciding in the moment "I can kill this person and get away with it?"

quote:

(2015)

Police Officers in Schools Are Proving to Be a Nightmarish Reality in the U.S

School cop arrested after surveillance video showed him body slam 13-year-old boy.

...

Badia was booked into the Osceola County Jail and his bond was set at $5,000. He immediately posted the bond and has been placed on paid vacation, pending the results of the pending criminal and internal investigation.

Apparently the video of Badia brutally assaulting a child wasn’t enough to get this officer fired, or even suspended without pay.

...

quote:

(2015)

Worse than Sandusky: School Cop Whose Job was to “Protect” Students, Repeatedly Raped 22 Boys

...

The lawsuit details how this serial child rapist would repeatedly walk into classrooms and remove his victims one by one. He would then lock himself and the young boys in the janitor’s closet where the sexual assaults would take place.

...

The victim notes how teachers blindly trusted this authority figure. None of the staff ever question why a cop would be interrupting class to remove the same boys over and over again.

“Not a single teacher reported him, or even questioned him. Not a single teacher made an inquiry to the office,” the lawsuit says. “This speaks of a failure of training and policy of an unbelievable and conscience-shocking level.”

...

quote:

(2015)

Cop Can’t Get Enough. While Out On Bond for Indecency, He’s Arrested Again, for Child Porn

...

A Plano police officer has been arrested twice in a three week period for indecency with a child and for possession of child pornography.

Jail records indicate that 44-year-old Richard Bradford was arrested on December 23, 2014. He was charged with indecency with a child and transferred to the Collin County Jail.

His bail was set at $50,000 and sometime after the 23rd he posted it.

On January 8, 2015, he was arrested again. This time around, he was charged with possession of child pornography. Despite being an obvious repeat offender and a risk to the public, he was granted bail, again.

His bond was set at $25,000 for the second offense, which he posted later that day.

...

quote:

(2015)

Cop Caught With Hard Drives Full of Child Porn, Won’t Be Charged Because of a Typo

A Dane County sheriff’s deputy miraculously escaped charges of child pornography, despite being caught with child pornography, because of a cut and paste error on a warrant.

In a tragic example of the broken “justice” system, former Dane County sheriff’s deputy Jeffrey C. Hilgers, 43, had seven counts of possession of child pornography dismissed Wednesday. The judge ruled that there was a fatal cut-and-paste error on a search warrant, thereby making the discovery of the illegal images on the deputy’s computers, inadmissible.

Kalman posted:

Yes, I was talking about an interlocutory appeal (which is why I mentioned the kinds of things that interlocutory appeals are used for...). That kind of failure is absolutely tailor-made for an interlocutory appeal - limited issue, basically dead-simple decision because it is quite literally "is there footage? No? Did they give the instruction? No? Order the instruction given."

That said, I somewhat doubt you'd see a lot of failures to give the instruction in a non-discretionary environment, and the instruction would presumably also apply in any follow-on civil cases so it would have some value there as well.

ElCondemn posted:

Ah, I must have misread one of the highlights. I'll have to do a bit of reading to get back to you.

I don't think this kind of data is going to get what you're looking for, might want to look at behavioral studies. Something that delves into, why the poor commit more violent crimes across the board, not just crimes like robbery etc.

Kalman posted:

It is 100% fair to assume AR would, and also quite fair to assume anyone who would bring up the general limitation on criminal appeals by prosecution would, though. In other words, anyone who was going to take issue with it on that account should also have understood why it isn't actually an issue.

Easy MC posted:

Broadly, the evidence does not support a direct causal link between economic opportunity and crime. A good example is that the economic downturn following the 2008 financial collapse didn't lead to an increase in crime, despite driving millions of people into poverty and homelessness.

I think this is an area where common sense is overruled by reality. An ordinary person can imagine themselves driven to crime by desperation, but in reality even in those circumstances, they probably wouldn't be able to actually go through with the robbery, because they are pro-social and the act of hurting another person is aversive.

At the same time, people who already have everything still commit terrible acts for instrumental reasons, or because they really believe they're justified, or because they know they won't face any consequences. Really successful Wall Street types, who had every opportunity and privilege had no problem screwing over their clients and the American people while having a good laugh over the dumb stooges who were buying their poo poo.

My point is that too much of the variability in criminal behavior is due to the interaction of individual characteristics with social conditions for a straightforward policy like "improving economic opportunity" to have much effect on crime. That doesn't mean that it's not a good idea for other reasons, it just means you can't assume more jobs = less crime.

Easy MC posted:

Broadly, the evidence does not support a direct causal link between economic opportunity and crime. A good example is that the economic downturn following the 2008 financial collapse didn't lead to an increase in crime, despite driving millions of people into poverty and homelessness.

I think this is an area where common sense is overruled by reality. An ordinary person can imagine themselves driven to crime by desperation, but in reality even in those circumstances, they probably wouldn't be able to actually go through with the robbery, because they are pro-social and the act of hurting another person is aversive.

At the same time, people who already have everything still commit terrible acts for instrumental reasons, or because they really believe they're justified, or because they know they won't face any consequences. Really successful Wall Street types, who had every opportunity and privilege had no problem screwing over their clients and the American people while having a good laugh over the dumb stooges who were buying their poo poo.

My point is that too much of the variability in criminal behavior is due to the interaction of individual characteristics with social conditions for a straightforward policy like "improving economic opportunity" to have much effect on crime. That doesn't mean that it's not a good idea for other reasons, it just means you can't assume more jobs = less crime.

ElCondemn posted:

I think I've made it clear what I'm trying to find, cases where every day officers have to make split second decisions to save someone's life by using lethal force. Cases where no gun would result in the loss of innocent life. I'm excluding cases like this one because it's reasonable to plan ahead and arm a security force for an event that had been threatened with violence.

mlmp08 posted:

Every active shooting where a beat cop killed the shooter. There you go. Those cases, at least, are unimpeachable. You could argue they are rare and still favor disarmed cops but if you want an example of a beat cop killing a person to stop deaths immediately, mission complete.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...n-2000-and-2013

quote:

As a result, the FBI identified 160 active shooter incidents that occurred in the United States between 2000 and 2013. Though additional active shooter incidents may have occurred during this time period, the FBI is confident this research captured the vast majority of incidents falling within the search criteria. To gather information for this study, researchers relied on official police records (where available), FBI records, and open sources. The
time span researched was intended to provide substantive results to aid in preparedness and response efforts. This study is not intended to explore all facets of active shooter incidents, but rather is intended to provide a baseline to guide federal, state, tribal, and campus law enforcement along with other first responders, corporations, educators, and the general public to a better understanding of active shooter incidents.

Trabisnikof posted:

Cops have killed more people this year than have responded to active shooter incidents in the last decade.

Dead Reckoning posted:

That... doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the question he was answering. Also, I see we are back to assuming every person killed by the police was killed unlawfully.

Dead Reckoning posted:

That... doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the question he was answering. Also, I see we are back to assuming every person killed by the police was killed unlawfully.

Dead Reckoning posted:

That... doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the question he was answering. Also, I see we are back to assuming every person killed by the police was killed unlawfully.

Dead Reckoning posted:

The problem is that once again you're shocked and appalled by a case without having any realistic, worthwhile suggestions about how the law should be different. Personally, I'm fine with the law giving property owners the benefit of the doubt when confronting tresspassers.

Dead Reckoning posted:

if I live alone, how much identification do I have to do in order to determine that the person in my home at 2:00 AM isn't supposed to be there? Should I have to give a, "Halt, who goes there?" like an old timey sentry?

Dead Reckoning posted:

You literally quoted a hypothetical where I talked about living alone, and therefore not being in danger of shooting my supermodel girlfriend through the bathroom door. Good job.

oohhboy posted:

Your first statement is a straw man where you deemed the only reaction to an unknown in the vicinity of your dwelling was to shoot an unknown target as you first response, an immensely irresponsible thing to do even if you were fighting a war.

Dead Reckoning posted:

I'm not really comfortable with the government deciding off the bat that I could never have a legitimate need or reason to defend myself, or the government assessing my character before deciding what I may and may not do.

Also, if I tell the government man that my shotgun is for clays, and buy one of the ones that the government has decided it is OK for me to shoot clays with, and I later use it to shoot a person who is trying to kill me, will I be in trouble for using it for a wrong purpose?

sugar free jazz posted:

After reading your posts I'm really comfortable with the government making that decision.

Dead Reckoning posted:

Seriously, when was this "found"? If you're going to go ad homenim, at least go for a less lazy one.
So your only evidence that the FBI is better than every SWAT team in America is that they say they've gotten better since the last time they botched a raid? Let's assume this is true, they have had a pretty good run recently, and the FBI HRT is not only more disciplined but better at resolving situations without loss of life than every other SWAT team in the country. How exactly do you plan to scale up from a unit of ~90 dudes handpicked from federal agents to an organization large enough to pick up the duties of all the presumably disbanded SWAT teams across the country while protecting the "brand?" How do you plan to fund this, since the local funding sources previously used for tac teams will go elsewhere? Do you think a nationwide organization that does nothing but conduct paramilitary raids will be more or less likely to attract military veterans than local PDs? Do you think such an organization will start looking for reasons to deploy in order to justify its continued funding? Also, even if you use your magic wand to confiscate every patrol officer's AR-15, what exactly stops the local yokels from grouping up and taking doors with pistols, Mini-14s and shotguns, as long as they don't call it "SWAT"? Will you be taking their body armor too?

Trabisnikof posted:

From your source:


Cops have killed more people this year than have responded to active shooter incidents in the last decade.

mlmp08 posted:

Sure which is why you will note in my exact post you quoted that you could argue active shootings are rare enough to warrant disarming beat cops. I was responding to a very stupid question of "has a cop ever killed to save an innocent life?" Because El Condemn is likely trolling and certainly doesn't know how to use google.

quote:

ATLANTA (CBS46) -
An Atlanta police officer faces charges for helping a murder suspect escape from a home. Police tell CBS46 the officer and suspect were friends.

Officer Tommy Williams was arrested on May 21 after being accused of helping 20-year-old Jabri Mathis escape. Mathis was wanted on 13 charges, including two counts of murder, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and possession of a weapon while committing a felony.

CBS46 was told Williams was with the fugitive when he helped him escape on May 15.

quote:

There are holes just like this one all through the back of the house too," Lech said. "They methodically fired explosives into every room in this house in order to extract one person. Granted, he had a handgun, but against 100 officers? You know, the proper thing to do would be to evacuate these homes around here, ensure the safety of the homeowners around here, fire some tear gas through the windows. If that didn’t work, you have 50 SWAT officers with body armor break down the door. Lech estimated roughly that his plan would have caused $10,000 in damage, as opposed to the $250,000 in damage he believes he is facing.

"This is an abomination," he said. "This is an atrocity. To use this kind of force against one gunman."

Lech explains that he had owned the home for two years and rented it to his son. It is now uninhabitable and may need to be completely leveled.

ATP_Power posted:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...-is-an-atrocity

quote:

The SWAT team said it used chemical agents, flash-bang grenades and a "breaching ram" to end the nearly 20-hour standoff.

tentative8e8op posted:

quote:

SWAT was trying to flush out shoplifting suspect

GreyPowerVan posted:

So they ruined some guys house to the tune of $250,000 to flush out a shoplifter?

ha...hahaha

tentative8e8op posted:

I was expecting that to be an overblown description, but wow

quote:

“He came up on me and grabbed me,” Phill said.

Phill got away from the man, who he suspected was under the influence of drugs.

“He said ‘You can’t hurt me, I’m god,’” Phill said.

Serrano’s erratic behavior continued when he entered an apartment and wouldn’t come out when police arrived.

Cops received at least two 911 calls about Serrano’s behavior.

Police flooded the area, surrounding the complex where Serrano was holed up and cordoning off Woodbridge Avenue between Beaver Street and Woodbridge Avenue Extension.

Once police arrived, Serrano wouldn’t come out, though he popped his head out his window at one point to talk to Ansonia police Lt. Andrew Cota, who was standing in the front yard area.

“Come on, do me a favor, open the window,” Cota asked about 12:30 p.m.

“I’m trying to sleep. Stop knocking on my door!” Serrano said before slamming his window shut.

Cota said police decided to set up a perimeter, keep the public at a safe distance and patiently wait Serrano out. Authorities were not sure whether he had weapons.

Meanwhile, a crowd of about a dozen onlookers watched as more and more police gathered, including officers from Seymour.

A friend of Serrano’s then approached police and offered to help. The friend called Serrano on a cell phone and helped to convince Serrano to give up.

Eventually Serrano walked slowly out of his apartment. At the same time, police cautiously approached.

Serrano walked to his friend. The two embraced — and the standoff was over.

Police then checked the apartment to make sure there were no weapons — or other people — inside.

“It couldn’t have ended any better,” Police Chief Kevin Hale said Wednesday.

Dazzling Addar posted:

now comes the true test
when the all important property value is now desecrated by the police, which is more important to police apologists? is the property owner morally entitled to shoot the cops with his gun for so heinously defacing his home?

quote:

You know, I work for a property management company who last month had a house get demolished similarly to this house. Swat and FBI picked the house apart from the inside, ripped off the front door and garage door, knocked a huge hole into the wall underneath the stairs. They ripped off every bit of ceiling on the second floor, knocked holes into a variety of different walls, destroyed a couple A/C ducts.

Our tenants mother or grandmother left the door open for them, gave them the keys, and they still ripped both garage and front doors off. All to find a murder suspect who ended up not even being there, and had left the house for someone elses house much earlier in the day. =/

Rhesus Pieces posted:

you're going to see an absolutely insane and disproportionate response

quote:

But there has been another, little-discussed change in the training of American police since the 9/11 attacks: At least 300 high-ranking sheriffs and police from agencies large and small – from New York and Maine to Orange County and Oakland, California – have traveled to Israel for privately funded seminars in what is described as counterterrorism techniques.

For some, dispatching American police to train in a foreign country battered by decades of war, terror attacks and strife highlights how dramatically U.S. law enforcement has changed in the 13 years since al-Qaida airplane hijackers crashed into New York’s World Trade Center. In many places, the image of the friendly cop on the beat has been replaced by intimidating, fully armed military-style troops. And Israel has played part in that transition.

quote:

Also, in 2003, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security established a special Office of International Affairs to institutionalize the relationship between Israeli and American security officials. “I think we can learn a lot from other countries, particularly Israel, which unfortunately has a long history of preparing for and responding to terrorist attacks,” said Senator Susan Collins (R-ME) about the special office.

In November 2011, a delegation of senior American law enforcement officials, including police commanders, security experts and FBI agents, went to Israel for a joint training seminar with Israeli counter-terrorism officials sponsored by the Anti-Defamation League. Israeli Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the program provided the visiting officials with an opportunity to “learn from each other and their Israeli counterparts.”The program covered topics such as border security and media response during crises as well as overviewing strategies for treating mass casualties, performing rescue operations and establishing command and control at the scene of a terror attack.